OK, I've been trying so hard not to post this but I really can't figure it out myself so I'm gonna give it a shot; First off, this is a LP AND TB thread so please help me and the moderators don't argue which one's better, and for old members who had enough of this just skip it so it won't bother you.. I'm also gonna use my own definitions, hopefully you'll understand it though I've always been considered myself a lip purser even though I can tongue block - I do tongue block the mid range of the harp so my embrosure will always be ready for tongue slap, octave and flutter but that doesn't make me call myself a tongue blocker or even a mixed embrosure player because to me - those are the kind of techniques that you don't really have any other way to get the similar sound so you got to learn it. I mean if you want those sound then tongue blocking is the only way to go but to me what would describes you as a lip purser or a tongue blocker is the way that you usually get the single note and do the nice vibrato on those notes as well and ( now it comes to the point that I might be completely wrong ) I used to believe that guys like SBW II and Rick Estrin who oftenly doesn't sound so musculine are lip pursers to my own definition above.. but recently I've been listen to a lot of mark hummel and william clarke and been liking how they sound a lot and knowing that they're tongue blockers I've googled something about them the other day and one of the results had led me to Dave Barrett's comment in his forum that said "If you love classic blues harmonica, like Little Walter, George "Harmonica" Smith, Big Walter Horton, Sonny Boy Williamson (I and II), James Cotton... and the modern versions of them... Rod Piazza, Mark Hummel, William Clarke, Rick Estrin, KIm Wilson, etc., then tongue blocking everything is where it's at (though you may still focus on pucker bending your blow bends and playing the 1st hole in a pucker... some players never go ALL the way".... a lot more questios to come but right now I'm gonna ask you just one simple question, do you really think that all of them above tongue blocked everything ? because not all of them sound the same to me and I can understand that Big Walter, Mark Hummel, Willian Clarke and Kim Wilson tongue block pretty much all the time but SBW II and Rick Estrin ??? They sound like a primarily lip purser to my ears - I might be completely wrong so help me out with this one, I don't mind re-learning things as long as it the right way to go.. Thanks in advance !
The term "Mixed embouchure" is a little misleading though. Most of those guys use/used tongue blocking for the majority of the time (with the exception of SBW II maybe).
Little Walter - Mixed embouchure George "Harmonica" Smith - 100% Tongue Blocked (according to Rod Piazza) Big Walter Horton - Mixed embouchure Sonny Boy Williamson I - Mixed embouchure Sonny Boy Williamson II - Mixed embouchure James Cotton - Mixed embouchure Rod Piazza - Mixed embouchure Mark Hummel - Mixed embouchure William Clarke - 100% Tongue blocked Rick Estrin - Mixed embouchure KIm Wilson - Mixed embouchure
Now, that's where the second question comes, Kingley, if you don't mind. It's the 100% TB and the Mixed embrosure thing that confused me, as for the 100% TB guys, did they really TBed everything from the bottom to the top though ? And for those guys for use the mixed embrosure, do you have any tips on how to point it out if they were using TB or LP in the record ? Because right now I'm kinda losing my confidence to tell if the lick had been played by TB or LP after the google search and also these clips of Lee Sankey that he played something that I thought can't be done on TB even better that LP and this one for a good vibrato where he compares it at 1.12 - 1.20
Yes the 100% TB guys play everything from top to bottom using TB. Mitch Kashmar is probably the best living example of this. Mixed embouchure is not easy to hear a lot of the time. Sometimes it can often be spotted when guys go from a fat sound to a thin sound. This often signals a change in embouchure (but not always). Most mixed players who predominantly tongue block will use lip pursing on the blow bends and maybe on hole one.
Lee Sankey (to the best of my knowledge) is a mixed embouchure player too. On that first clip I'd say Lee using tongue blocking and then switches to lip pursing around 1:23 before switching back again around 1:25 (in my opinion). In the second clip he's using TB and then lip pursing the high notes (again in my opinion).
My advice would be to learn to use both techniques and not worry about who is doing what and where. Once you have both techniques down you can then use whichever suits your purpose best at any given time.
Thanks a lot Kingley for your comments. I never get confused and never really care about this until lately that I found a few statements from those guys above, Lee Sankey and Mark Hummel said that they TB pretty much all the time and also when Dave Barrett said that most of them TB everything it really made me thought that I can't really trust my ear anymore when I learn the tune. Character wise, I think there's a certain style, certain sound in each other that another technique can't imitate. I'm just started to worry that I might be wrong..
@Silpakorn, i used to think the same as yourself and it struck me when i subscribed to Dave Barretts site that i'm gona have to learn how to TB.
It kinda scared me as most the featured artist videos were like "you gotta TB if you want to be a real bluesman" sort of thing. Dave Barett makes a point of asking them "do you think its important to TB" It depressed me for a while as i had learnt everything Lp and i basically had to relearn stuff TBed
I was a lip purser who used octaves now and again but never really got on with TBing and i wondered what the fuss was about.
Once i listened out for it i started to hear the difference. The slaps and pulls were one thing that stood out more and more for me. I thought it added alot of texture and really beefed up the sound.
Now i've finally worked TBing into my playing not quiet 100% but i'd say about 90% the rest of the time i LP.
Like Kingley said if you can work both styles into your playing, i think thats what any decent harp player will do, the more tricks you can add to your bag the better you will become.
Kingley's right. Lee plays mixed. Two other significant features of his style are (a) he tongue switches (he can TB out of both sides), (b) he articulates a lot in his throat.
EDIT: Lee's a very nice bloke. Drop him a YouTube message / comment and I'd be very surprised if he doesn't reply to interesting questions in a thoughtful, intelligent and courteous way...
Mmmmm, @ant I don't really mind if finally TB's the way to go, it's already at least 50% of my playing but I use the think that it was enough - I mean I never see the need of TB vibrato and TBing down to the first 3 holes. I use to believe that you can do it better LP.. and also moving the harp a lot more to the side of your mouth pretty much all the time ( I call it bolwin-with-cheek style ) is going to be awkward for me for a while (T_T) @captainbliss talking about articulation what do TBers do to re-articulate the same note ? I mean if you do it LP you simply kinda say tu-tu-tu to re-articulate it but with TB if your tongue got to stick there all the time - how do you do it ?
I'm not a big fan of the idea that one "has to" tongue block in order to get a big sound (even though I tongue block holes 1-6 90% of the time) I think one needs tongue blocking for octaves and lots of cool effects,definitely. You can't however, say that Jason Ricci has a thin sound because he lip purses.
I went down a similar path, about ten years ago. I was obsessed with trying to tell the difference, and with trying to switch completely away from pucker. The funny thing, is that I ended up having to re-learn to pucker, then to integrate the two embouchures. That process lead me to the conclusion that tone is bigger than embouchure, and that there's really not a huge tonal difference once you get good at both. You get to this sort of zen place where you can switch consciously or sub-consciously and it sounds about the same.
I think lots of people migth say that it's "thinner" still, with jason's sound but I'd say different texture. What I've found so far is, a single note has different shape to my ears; LP has clearer attack to the head but not so round body and TB has much fatter body but it's more difficult to get a sharp attack... again, I might be wrong but that's what I've found so far. After 4-5 days of trying TB bending and vibrato now I can bend already and vibrato is on the way but I'm defiinitely not gonna switch completely cause I still like a lot of LP stuffs that TB can't imitate.
