I posted this on the main page but it slid all the way to page 2 without comment. I suppose I didn't actually ask for comment so probably fair enough.
So why post here? I suppose: so folks here can see/hear some of what I'm doing, in a gig setting
see how it looks to go fiddle with your amp mid-song. I felt it was ok, I'd done my bit, not singing now, not playing, I can go mess with the amp a little. But no, it looks dreadful. If one is engaging with an audience I think you have to commit to be there for the journey.
And I'd be interested to hear your feedback of course. In particular, I am aware of the imprecise 3 draw bends. I feel like it doesn't detract much from the song but I'm interested in how it comes across to an audience.
Also my solo i aware does not employ much repetition and I'm wondering does it come over as coherent or does it just sound scatterbrained?
I think the sound is ok, not too unhappy with vocals. How is the harp 'tone'?
This is great. Sounds just like it should. This is a much more refined sound than before isn't it? The tasteful drumming lets everyone else shine and be heard without straining.
- Your 3 bends sound just like 3 bends do. All good.
- Harp tone is very pleasing, and because of the overall feel you can hear the subtle bits properly. See all previous discussions about band vs harp volume!
- The harp solo is great, because it contrasts with the other more song-specific harp parts.
- I think adjusting the amp looked ok - the focus was on your guitarist at that point.
I hope you're very pleased with yourselves.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 09, 2017 2:06 AM
I thought it was a good solid performance all 'round. Playing and volumes were tasteful. I thought you could have even gone around one more time on the solo. Not playing the main melody gives it a jazzier improv feeling in my view. Adjusting the amp is OK, I agree because the focus is elsewhere. (What gives me the shits is when a guitarist spends too much time twiddling and fiddling with his knob(s) between songs. It happens sometimes. I used to play with a guy who would often strum a few chords and then stop suddenly to make a minute adjustment only he could hear. Destroys the rhythm.) Your vocals are fine: you "sold" the song well. I am trying to incorporate more stagecraft in my performances, gesturing, facial expressions and so on. When the guitarist is soloing I like to look on as if I've never heard it before. Harp tone is good. Not too harsh for the song, which could be a pitfall.
Yes. Ditto. Because you pointed it out, I looked more closely at your fiddling with the amp. Maybe a bit long. I want to emulate your 'stagecraft'. You're moving with the song, with the other musicians, but no melodrama. Reserved, supportive. Your solo fit the song right. ---------- Phil Pennington
'Bee as long as we are discussing the minutia of being in and presenting a band i'd like add that i found it a bit disconcerting to have the Bass centre stage. If you and the guitarist are sharing singing duties to me it just 'feels' right that you are at the front especially so as you are playing the lead instruments. But hey just my opinion most people probably don't care one way or tother as long as the musics good.
Superbee- I love it! I think it sounds great. Band has a good mix and not too loud. I like your tone. I didn't think the fiddling with amp and turning around was a prob at all. Gotta do what ya gotta do. Thanks for posting cool to see you in action.
Well my initial feeling was that the Feel was a bit dull. The caldonia that I hear in my head is much more snappy in tempo. Ofcourse this totally depends on the venue and feel of the room. Perhaps the snappy tempo would have been overwhelming for this room. And midway through the song I started to like the tempo a bit more anyways.
The amp thing didn't look great, but I wonder how much I would have noticed had you not said anything. I wouldn't worry about it too much, but perhaps you could do it differently. If you had to mess with the amp when the guitar solo starts .... you could start by maybe clapping and getting the crowd going a bit or kindof intentionally shifting the attention his way. Then don't fully turn your back. Keep facing them, but turn sideways a bit.
As far as the playing. It all sounded great. The amp sounded right on, raspy,and brassy. I did notice a few bends that were off, but again ... had you not said anything...... maybe wouldn't have even noticed. Your solo was good and your tone was nice n warm.
Overall I think it was money. The only real thing I would have changed is the feel.
But I'm too scared to even get on stage so.... take it for what itd worth... lol.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 09, 2017 8:49 PM
It's a good topic Indigo. And thanks for your comments all.
Re lineup on stage, I never used to have a problem with it when I was sole front man but it's more difficult now for some reason. 1st principle is bass next to drummer, left or right depending on drummer's orientation. in this case bass is to the drummers left. So this puts me either to bassman left or drummers right, or in front of drums. If in front of drums, either bass is between me and my amp, or my amp sits to right of drums and guitarist pushes further right. Perhaps not obvious in this picture is the 5th member, the guitar rack. Bassman is a big guy as they sometimes are. If we pushed the drums further left (drummer's left, right of picture) and gave bassman the extreme left of stage (my space in video) then I could take that space on the other side of kit for my amp and stand front of drums. Have done this on other gigs. Timely to think about it as rehearsal tonight and some post-mortem discussion will occur so I can throw this into the mix. Basically I just hate having my amp on the 'other' side of something/someone. Or under something (ride cymbal for instance)
A couple posts came in while I was writing that last. Killa re the feel, note how much it slows down after the first chorus. It starts snappy but really slows down. That's a tendency of this drummer. He has improved a lot and previous gig hardly did it at all, but this gig it happened a few times. Will mention it. I'm sure he is aware of it. Main place I noticed with the 3 draws is in the last chorus I hit the 3" when I should be on the 3' and likewise the 3"' on the IV.
This was pretty early in the show, 5th song I think and my second vocal. I'd begun with a crystal but swapped it out for a CM in the previous song, hence the amp twiddling. That's a mid 60s CM in a JT30 shell, bma volume inline, Lone Wolf Octave and Reverb (I've taken to using the pedal instead of the onboard tank, so that I can switch from Reverb to delay more easily. So now getting some use from the pedal, thanks Indigo)
Please don't automatically blame the drummer for tempo changes! :) I've got first hand experience of this now - if one person or the rest of the band are pulling the tempo out of shape then the drummer has to respond somehow. Either by doggedly sticking to tempo (to the detriment of the song) or by adapting. It's a group effort.
Particularly if he is a relatively junior member of the band, he may look to someone else's lead.
It could just be miscommunication. For instance, if a soloist or singer wants to put themselves slightly ahead of the beat to add tension, your drummer may take that as a signal that one of the bosses wants to speed up. Similarly if they want to play behind the beat to give a relaxed feel, he could see that as signal to slow down.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 10, 2017 1:18 AM
Man ... i hope my post didn't come off overly critical. I just read everyone else's and they r all nice ..lol.
I only noticed these things because I was watching it critically.
The tempo thing wasnt about the drummer being off, but more about the overall feel of the song. I think the tempo may be slightly slower than in used to hearing.
The drummer in the muddy versions plays more of a flat tire "omm pah" rhythm. On the downbeat? And gives it a more swinging feel? Idk yall know how I am with the theory part. Maybe that's not it... your drummer is playing very similar to this .....
Something about this version feels a bit "swing-ier" ... lol. If that's a word.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 10, 2017 5:08 AM
Fair enough. I've k own this guy for a while, have noticed the tendency. In other bands I've generally noticed a tendency to speed up but when this guy is in the seat it's common to slow down. Anyway, we didn't get into apportionment of blame, except to accept it on behalf of ourselves. That's the way we roll. Worked on tempos a bit tonight. One thing we talked about was our other big swing number which also has numerous stops, and how it's easy to drop tempo when you come back from the stop. This may be what happened in Caldonia also. So that's an issue for me, as the singer I'm responsible to hold tempo through those stops.
Other tempo issues: my babe. That song is very pacy but it doesn't sound fast. It's almost 160 bpm on little Walter's record though.
Also dropped the Elmore James tunes to D and this was instantly better. And put my slow blues into A which is also better, at lest for me.
And I am starting to get my 'accompaniment' role under control. Much better, using textures in one song, chords and leading tones in another, starting to get it worked out. Oh yes, and I took my champ tonight, just to see. I sat it on top of a Marshall quad box and used it with the Octave and Reverb pedals. It was quite adequate. Then I tried the much vaunted idea of cranking volume at the amp and controlling level from the mic. I've played around with that at home and never really noted any big difference but in a live playing situation I found it may actually be beneficial. If nothing else, it gave me the ability to adjust my level without turning back to the amp. I'm not sure the amp sounded different, but maybe it did. I've taken the cathode bypass cap off the first preamp stage so it's already more harp friendly than some. I'll probably do that more often from now on. I've always been a mic up full person but maybe I'll change my ways.
Yea, I've heard people say things like ... "we want to play my babe, but this drummer can't handle it. So we're going to skip it." So apparently it's harder than it seems.
Maybe there is a way to keep some kind of metronome cluck going. Atleast for practice. I know on my looper I can set a beat to a bpm and run a line out to either a speaker or headphones.
I'm glad your sharing all the issues your having. I'm learning alot about the issues I may face.
Oh yes muddy waters Caldonia, I confess the only thing I've taken from muddy waters in relation to it is that I decided to do it in G after I heard one of his records, rather than C. Otherwise the only versions I really listen to are all by Louis Jordan. I used to do it in C, which is actually where I'd thought I'd rather sing it, but once I started playing in G which is also an easy key for me, it stuck there. You right about the drums there of course.
Now I have to write words in the hope the filter won't grab my post, so I might as well state the blindingly obvious about the tempo and the horns and Louis. I'd like to do more Louis Jordan numbers but probably not gonna happen in this lifetime. Maybe let the good times roll, or ain't nobody here but us chickens.
If you're looking to do Louis Jordan numbers, there's a very good book 'The Commandments of Early Rhythm and Blues Drumming' (Zoro and Daniel Glass) which is an excellent survey of the drumming styles of that era.
https://www.amazon.com/Commandments-Early-Rhythm-Blues-Drumming/dp/073905399X
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 11, 2017 12:14 AM
Here's another one from the other night. In a support role and not sure at the that what I was doing was really gonna be missed if I didn't do it, so This is where I decided to change mics mid-song.
Really had no idea what I'd do to support this song. I didn't want to double the guitar, went mainly for wailing and such. I wasn't sure how this would sound but seems to be down an ok track.
Help Me, lovely. Great harp sound, same as before. I like the understated, lilting solo.
Since you want actual criticism: I'd have liked it if you'd done some rhythm backing during the guitar solo. Little chucks or something. Also the ending was a bit uncertain.
I like 'help me' in all it's interpretations. Laid back is nice, but for me the demanding, harder edge of the Charlie Musselwhite version is my all time fav.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 13, 2017 4:34 AM
Yeah the ending is always an issue for me with this song. Not sure why it's so sloppy there but it will get sorted. We haven't played it very often, though it's been on set lists a few times it regularly gets cut. I think the guitar has probably only recently learned to play it, or learned to remember how it goes. So in a way it's a new song for them, although I've been playing it for years in different combos. It was a staple of my 'one set' bands and it's a standard at the jams. I see my trolling friend has complained about the bass being out of kilter with the beat. I don't know if that's a valid criticism or not.
I used to love this song. I like the organ in Sonny Boy Williamson-Miller's recording, and I like the Jr Wells Vanguard 'tribute to Sonny' record. My previous guitarist used to play it well and really gave the solo a story. It meant something to him.
Anyway, this was the last song of the evening and there were 4 people in the room besides us, and I was really trying to not be going through the motions but I don't know if I can speak for the whole band.
Re the bass timing, there's always someone watching who says that kind of thing! Sounded OK to me, I wasn't listening hard for that though.
So to expand on what I said, I really like the guitarist's rhythm during the sung verses. When he switches to the solo I'd like to hear you do take that role. All subjective of course, it's fine as is.
Just listening to Terraplane. Nice groove. I see what you mean about the harp.
Again, just subjective but I'd rather hear the harp up front (i.e. strong fills) or not at all. Rather than faintly in the background like that. There's plenty of room in the vocals for fills. I know on the MF there's a prevailing opinion that the harp should be seen and not heard during vocals - but what's the point of that? I think they must be talking about mysterious Blues Jam etiquette rather than proper band playing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 13, 2017 7:55 AM
Sure, Barrett says similar about fills, essentially they are short solos, so come in at full volume. This is one of the songs where I was quite underprepared and basically working it out on the spot. The main effect I'm looking for is to 'swell' that wail, which is why I swapped mics, but that then needed me to spend more time adjusting the amp, which carries into Caldonia which was next in the set. At the time I was unimpressed with what I delivered in terraplane, felt it was at times tentative and other times intrusive. The tale of the tape shows that it was indeed tentative and the intrusive part was probably only relative to that. I'm definitely finding the 'accompaniment' aspect of playing to be the most challenging. The songs I lead generally have well defined parts and I may play them more or less well, but I know what I should be doing, no doubt I should be playing and playing at full volume. But when playing fills and accompaniment it's less obvious to me. I've played things at times that I was very happy with, only to listen back and realise it was detracting from the overall effect. It may have been 'correct' or 'not wrong' but not the best use of the instrument. (Sometimes I feel this way when I see/hear brilliant harp players playing brilliantly, but failing to provide the fulfilling effect which a trumpet, for instance, would have given). So I feel apprehensive at some of these numbers, but that is actually 'what I'm working on', trying to fit my harp into a band which would get along fine without it, to make the band sound better, not worse. That's the challenge!
Yes I do understand. I'd rather you erred on the side of intrusive. If, instead of playing fills, you want to play under the vocals like you do sometimes there, I pretty much always think a long, amped warble sounds good, and better than a wail. I think because it supports the rhythm.
Great stuff super! My favorite is a muddy waters "live" version, I don't know who else is voice on it, but they kind of get a bit if banter back and forth throughout the song. It's wonderful! One of my so time favorite, thanks for sharing your version! ---------- If you don't cut it while it's hot......
Here is another one. This song is always a dilemma for me; I really don't know what to do, so I usually do something along the lines of what is shown in this video. Actually causes me some anxiety when it's called. This is the first time I've Seen a recording of it, although I've performed it maybe a dozen times. I'm still processing my thoughts about it.
I've also struggled with Shake. What worked for me was not trying to keep up with the guitar. I layed back on the vocals and tried to play more of the rhythmic part when there are no vocals.Don't know if my explanation helped. I'll try to dig up a recording.
Re: Terraplane- Those Delta blues songs can be really tough to play on. I thought you did alright. But if in doubt,lay out.
Thanks for watching and comments. I was speaking with Mark Hummel about these songs earlier. his advice was basically that I should do what pleases the guitarist (who is also the vocalist). That strikes me as a very practical approach. If the singer is not happy about the accompaniment, you have to take notice.
hey great tone, I don't like all that over distorted hash you usually hear on you tube. yours is clean and quite crisp. most people wouldn't have even noticed there was harp in the background of the second clip but the song would have been lacking with out it, very subtle but I thought it worked.
I also was puzzled by the bass player up front I assumed (wrongly ?)that he was the main vocals for other songs.
lastly don't pay too much attention to how others do a song draw inspiration but make it your own.
Hi Bee, I think you're right to lay out and let the guitar and vocals do their thing where apt. That's half the battle, knowing when not to play. You really got into your stride in 2H of the MoneyMaker vid. Could you do backing vox on the chorus, make it more of a singalong?
Good stuff SuperBee, I got as far as Terraplane and had some thoughts but read further and you are honestly accurate at critiquing yourself, along with other helpful members.
I noticed your comment about this being the first time you’ve watch your Shake number. @ Although you’ve performed it a dozen times… and the anxiety it causes.
So, How about recording numbers like Shake and Tarraplane during a rehearsal without the harp. Then you can play that back over some headphones on your own time and jam out accompaniments that you are happy with. I’m not sure what your recording setup is but maybe you can layer different ideas and save them for playback for yourself or group rehearsals. Not trying to sell the idea but it has also helped me to lay the main track onto my pc using something like Audacity then I can look at the song’s timing… and work out my part as a separate track(s).
Thank you all for taking time to watch and comment. That is really appreciated; I know how easy it is to skip past. And some good ideas. Thanks Dave, that is a good idea. Our drummer always records and shares our rehearsals, which are now weekly, so that's quite feasible.
Bronze, I do think I could sing on that chorus. I join in on Can't Hold Out (talk to me baby!) and Mojo (got my mojo workin'!), and Paddy helps me out on Caldonia, and Rob helps me on Bright Lights. When I think about it, money maker is begging for it. I spoke to mark Hummel about this, he agreed there really isn't a well-known recorded example of harp on that song. I might be it! I expect Billy Branch would manage. I actually think about some of Billy's work when I'm playing along with it now.
Hey Arcticbreaze, I feel like you might be in NZ? Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate that. The terraplane thing is pretty much what I was going for, just a background lift that you're not really aware of until it stops or starts to chug. I really enjoy the guitar on that song, I'm trying to creAte a kind of envelope/backdrop.
So many approaches and slightly different ways to tackle things, this keeps it interesting.
