ScottK
60 posts
Mar 20, 2017
8:15 PM
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I'd like to hear about tuning harps. Do you guys do that? I know I can google and find stuff and I will but would like to hear what you all do. I have taken apart and cleaned harps. I have a marine band 1896 key of C that sounds flat I think on the 3rd draw...
I wonder what process you may go through from listening if they are in tune- what you use to check them? Piano? Guitar Tuner? and how to adjust.
Or just point me to a good youtube vid!
Thanks
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SuperBee
4585 posts
Mar 20, 2017
10:27 PM
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tuning is a kinda deep well.
andrew zajac has some fairly accessible info on his site.
with your marine band, take a guitar tuner and set it to 440 Hz, and play your 3 draw. does it show as flat?
then play your 7 draw. is it the same?
id normally expect/want the 7 draw to be bang on the note, B in this case, at 440Hz, and i'd probably want to see the 3 draw a little bit sharper, maybe 3 cents but if it was also bang-on that would be ok.
but, its all relative so your 3 draw could be ok and the rest of the harp could be sharp, and your 3 draw would sound relatively flat, so check your 4 draw, but set the tuner to 442 or 443. and check 4 blow as well.
on a marine band it could be all over the place frankly, but it should be pretty much how andrew shows on his site:
using a guitar tuner, 1, 4, 7 and 10 blow at 442
3, 6, 9 blow at 442 plus 1 or 2 cents
2, 5, 8 blow at 439
1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 draw at 443
3, 5, 7, 9 draw at 440
and then tune your octaves to play nicely together which usually means sharpening the lower reed a few cents. this is more an issue in the lower octaves. usually the mid/upper split will play OK
you have to test with the harp assembled. it will play differently on the comb with covers installed
if tuning using a file, be careful not to snag the edge or corner of the reed.
i slip a shim under the reed to protect the reedplate from the file.
i use a file on brass reeds, a fine one, and sandpaper. the file seydel supply is too coarse for brass imho, but is usable if you have the right touch.
i don't use rotary tools but many do.
if there is a general rule i suppose it might be take it easy, dont be heavy handed, and don't be impatient. try to measure what you do, then measure the result. change one thing at a time. if you need to stroke with more force, dont also add more strokes, or vice versa. take a measured approach
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dchurch
118 posts
Mar 21, 2017
12:35 AM
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Scott,
I think a lot of folks at least gap and tune their own harps.
I basically do what SuperBee suggests.
To raise a flat reed up in pitch you need to support the reed by slipping something thin under it, then remove metal from the surface of the reed near its tip.
I like using a battery powered rotary "engraver" made by General. But I occasionally use files and a tiny blade to scratch off a hair of metal. Good lighting and a magnifying headband really help me with this kind of work.
Unfortunately if a reed goes flat and seems to get worse it may have a crack near the rivet end. If you tune the reed and it soon goes flat again it has a crack for sure and must be replaced.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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Killa_Hertz
2278 posts
Mar 21, 2017
1:48 PM
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Yes, there is plenty of information out there on the subject. I'm not great at it myself. But the one thing that helped immensely was a bit of advice I got from Richard Sleigh. "Don't try to tune a harp in one shot." There are so many variables at hand when tuning a harp. It's actually more complicated than it seems. Your breath building up on the reeds can set off the pitch. Yor breath force obviously can aswell. The longer you try to get it perfect, you will find you are chasing your tail. You get fatigued and frustrated ... more breath is building up on the reeds, etc.
And after you let the harp sit for a few days, the tuning WILL drift. So the best thing to do is get "pretty close" with a nice quick tuning. Then do this again in a few days. And even a third time. Three quick tunings will be far more accurate than one 2 hour long tuning job.
I suggest Richard Sleigh hot rod your harmonica DVD lesson, if you have the means. And also Andrew Zajac Blog page. It's alot to sift through,but it's a wealth of information.
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SuperBee
4586 posts
Mar 21, 2017
7:28 PM
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That's probably good advice. I often precision-tune several complete harps in long sessions, but I wouldn't if I didn't have to.
You can take the condensation factor out of the equation, and you can regulate your breath force.
There may even be ways to mitigate pitch drift but you can work out what you think about that all by yourself. The less you've interfered with the reed the less it's likely to drift; I'm currently running with that idea. There's another one, that tuning (just) past the target and coming back from the other direction results in better stability.
I don't know. I'm trying it.
Also, some think steel is more stable. Maybe it is.
These things can all be tested, but require an investment of time, and good record keeping.
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Killa_Hertz
2279 posts
Mar 22, 2017
5:33 AM
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Yes I've seen some folks use a hair dryer to dry the reeds off to get rid of condensation.
The breath control can be tough. Because small manipulations of your mouth and/or throat ... and you can watch the tuner move. My tuner is very touchy though. Paterson Strobotune HD. It doesn't take much to get it to move.
I was also taught the "go past and come back" method. I do this aswell.
I'm not sure if steel is more stable or not, but it sure feels that way. Marine bands seem to drift pretty heavy after my first tuning. Maybe that's just me. Steel is more of a pain to tune, that's for sure.
I feel as long as your tuning is close, your fine. Your playing is likely going to change it a bit anyways. Your intonation won't be perfect. To me the most important thing is Rock solid Octaves. No Beating. It's so nice when you can hit every octave and it's solid.
You guys are making me realize how many harps I have that need tuning... lol.
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SuperBee
4587 posts
Mar 22, 2017
1:44 PM
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Yep a hair dryer is good. I use a heat gun sometimes, but care required!
The sjoberg/master harp tuning table is nice for taking condensation out of the problem. But it's not a magic fix.
Ditto Zajac's 'French tuner'. It's helpful but it certainly will demonstrate condensation, how quickly it forms and how it affects pitch. It's helpful but I can't usually tune an Octave using that tool alone.
Breath force is one thing but embouchure also is a factor. The point from which you breathe is important, at least for me. I need to stay conscious of that and keep my throats quite open. It's almost about where my chin is.
Tuning harps is really quite good for developing awareness of all these factors which affect the sound.
Anyway, like most things, the more you do it the greater understanding you develop and start to work out systems which work for you.
If you only tune 5 harps and give up while you still find it frustrating, that's the end of the story. If you tune a few hundred you'll probably feel you know what you're doing, but it might still be difficult to explain to others
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ScottK
61 posts
Mar 22, 2017
8:44 PM
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Thanks for all the info guys!
Much appreciated!
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SuperBee
4588 posts
Mar 22, 2017
10:27 PM
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I just received10 packs of reeds from Seydel, plus a couple of combs, 2 sets of 1847 covers and the hardware to put together a couple of harps.
I've got 17 Seydel reedplates to repair and tune for 1 customer, then another couple of sessions to do for another, and a pair of yonberg harps also which I need to tune.
It's times like these I feel I could use a good rotary tool.
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Killa_Hertz
2281 posts
Mar 23, 2017
5:29 AM
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I really like the Rotary tool bee. They are very cheap as I'm sure you know. Tom Halchak uses a cheap manicurist tool from ebay. It has a foot pedal for speed and everything. When this general engraver dies .. I'm getting one.
The engraver does leave it a little rough. I like to get close with the engraver ... then use a file to smooth it out and get on point.
I know in Oz importing things can get expensive, but I don't know how you live without one. Doing as many harps as you do.
This thread has me wanting to tune all my harps this weekend. I have yet to tune a Seydel. See how tough these steel reeds are. I'm also going to tune one of my manjis to 7 limit.
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SuperBee
4590 posts
Mar 23, 2017
5:49 AM
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I gotta talk to my nephew the dentist. I reckon he is probably an expert on rotary tools. He might even have some old ones in his junk room.
You get pretty handy with a file and a draw scraper. i can judge pretty well how many strokes and where to place them. Guess you'd get used to it with a grinder as well though.
Steel reeds; first one I had to tune a half step seemed to take forever but now it doesn't seem so bad. The F Dick file seydel sell seems to work ok with them. I think it's too coarse for brass, but you can do it.
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Spderyak
131 posts
Apr 06, 2017
4:06 AM
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Is it safe to say tuning our harps doesn't necessarily make one a better musician ? At some point in time one does have to work on the music itself.
Lot's of folks go out buy an expensive guitar..but that doesn't necessarily make them a better guitarist.
I see people fret over not being able to get a note or a bend and completely miss out on all that they can do...
Last Edited by Spderyak on Apr 06, 2017 4:11 AM
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Fil
292 posts
Apr 06, 2017
7:18 AM
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I'd say it's safe, assuming it's a functional harp not terribly out of tune. 'Time on task' is the point for folks early in the process, like me. The equipment chase can be expensive and distracting, at least until you know enough to understand what you're spending your money and time on. IMHO.
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Phil Pennington
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SuperBee
4610 posts
Apr 06, 2017
2:08 PM
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Yes and no.
Playing in tune is fundamental to musicianship. Having a well-tuned instrument is a good place to start.
Of course with diatonic harmonica the player is really up against it from the start because the thing is so easily played out of tune, sensitive to a range of factors which affect pitch, and many important notes have to be found through bending, so development of one's ability to hear pitch is a crucial skill.
Tuning my harps, and those sent me to repair, was one process which really helped me become more aware. I'm not a very good student insofar as performing repetitive exercises in isolation for the sake of skill development. But if I distract myself with a practical purpose I will often develop the skill incidentally. Hence, tuning harps for customers and ensuring the octaves were playing nicely together actually was how I learned to play octaves cleanly, whereas I just couldn't seem to get there following dave Barrett's exercise for same.
Tuning harps, like working on harps generally, will sharpen your awareness. For some this sits well with how we learn.
For others it's probably completely unnecessary and they may see it as a distraction from the main game.
If the harp is out of tune and distracting you, as per the OP, I think it's gonna hinder you and you need to tune it
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SuperBee
4611 posts
Apr 06, 2017
2:16 PM
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And I love this quote from my favourite harp builder:
"Some players don't care, they don't know their harp is out of tune until they swallow a reed, and for some it's literally played until there's at least three out."
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ME.HarpDoc
234 posts
Apr 06, 2017
3:45 PM
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Ok. This is the beginners forum so it should be safe to ask what may be an obvious question even though I've been playing for a few years now.
What does "beating" mean when playing octaves? I watched an Andrew Zajac tuning video a while back and he would say something like "you can hear there's still some beating when I play the octave. I'll just take a little more off the....reed. There now it's no longer beating". Well, no, I couldn't hear it because I didn't know what to listen for.
Any understanding on my part would help if someone could explain for me.
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SuperBee
4612 posts
Apr 06, 2017
5:24 PM
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It's an audible oscillation. It's caused by the two notes being close but not quite in synch.
Have you ever played a tremolo harp? They are tuned to give this effect. Two reeds tuned to the same pitch but a few cents apart. It's tuneful but it's a wavering sound. It can be desirable, but too much is gonna get old fast.
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Fil
293 posts
Apr 07, 2017
6:41 AM
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You are right, SB. I said "it's safe." I should have phrased it as "it can be safe." Playing in tune is fundamental, thus a properly tuned instrument is essential. I guess my point is don't get distracted by chasing perfection.
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Phil Pennington
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