Ace, really nice. You've got those simultaneous layers of technique and effects that make the sound complex, and was such a mystery when we were beginning - you know the question, "I'm playing the notes, why don't I sound like that record?".
Another notch towards elusive perfection would be around the timing. It's a subtle thing, no one would say it was wrong. If you were playing to backing track, or with a band, or even a metronome it would be fine, so the timing isn't 'out', but there is a slight ambiguity in phrasing - easiest to point out the first few notes, but elsewhere too. Playing solo, you need to really put the pulse across strongly, and that's a subtle thing to do with little shifts of timing and dynamics within the phrases.
I have to add that your playing is much nicer than mine, particularly for this kind of thing. So I'm saying this from the point of view of a listener, not a practitioner. I struggled with the phrasing/pulse/timing thing from day 1 on the harp. I've still not cracked the code.
For me, it seems to be something harp-specific. It's odd, even though my trumpet playing is currently at the 'laughable' stage (think early-years school band) I don't have the same phrasing/timing difficulties.
Ok, reading back that's classic 'criticism sandwich' but that's not intention :(
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 01, 2017 7:16 AM
Trust me Ive got thick skin. I don't take it that way at all. Im actually glad you brought it up. I wish you would elaborate a bit. Im not exactly sure what your getting at. But please feel free to pick it apart. No matter how big or small an issue, i would love to hear anyone's opinion on where i can improve.
Phew. I hoped that was the case. This is the kind of detailed discussion I PAY to get from a teacher, but is difficult to get elsewhere. And it's no flim-flam to say that I like the essential sound of your playing - it's 'solid' to my ears, as I say and with that nice complexity of timbre (gritty/smooth, vibrato/plain etc.)
BTW lovely turnaround at about 40s, ending with a super bit of in-rhythm vibrato.
So, the phrasing. It would be easier to explain this in standard notation, but just taking the opening two bar, each bar has four (swung) 1/8th notes then a 1/2 note.
You might choose to accent each of the four beats, which means hearing the 1/8th notes as two pairs. And hitting the first of each pair a bit harder. Then accenting the start of the 1/2 note, and possibly even adding a little accent on beat 4 as well.
DA-da Da-da DaaAaa (if that makes any sense to you!)
But then you can choose how long the 1/2 note really is. Currently you tail it off with a nice vibrato. But you could cut it off early - even add a little blow 'chuck' on beat 4. Or the big boys often add a bit of vocalisation to accent beat 4 - aaahh, and of course you are getting rid of air ready to attack again.
Or you could play the whole two bars in one breath. I always think that's a characteristic of Adam's playing - he keeps the sound going strong through whole phrases.
BTW what Ronnie does a lot to accent a note is to add a very conscious chuck just beforehand - like a tongue-slap-plus!
Point is there are choices, but it's important to consciously make them and make it clear to the listener that's what you've chosen.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 01, 2017 11:40 AM
Yeah I saw one of these clips on friendface last night. Pretty cool. Cool enough that I thought I better get with the program. you're getting some solid technique and classic-sounding harmonic moves going on. What you're studying is clearly paying off. I hear the Horton influence in this.
"I hear the Horton influence in this" Wow that's the coolest thing anyone has ever said to me. Lol. Thanks Bee.
MTG. Honestly when i started to read "1/8th notes " i was thinking "oh man im totally not going to understand this .." Lol. But believe it or not i know exactly what you mean. Your absolutely right! I heard it immediately in my head. That's a great example of why i need to learn more theory. To be able to communicate like that.
Like i said. This was just something that was stuck in my head all day. (No doubt plagiarized from somewhere.) And when i got home i started playing it. So its still pretty raw. After playing with it for a week or two, i would have flashed it up a bit somehow.
But all of your observations have been VERY helpful.
". I always think that's a characteristic of Adam's playing - he keeps the sound going strong through whole phrases."
Ofcourse i learned nearly my entire foundation from Adam, so that makes perfect sense as to why i would lean that way. But i like how to drew it to my attention now. I could try changing that up.
"Ronnie does a lot to accent a note is to add a very conscious chuck just beforehand - like a tongue-slap-plus"
I don't slap at all on the 1 or 2 holes. (Actually I am starting to practice this a bit because of wanting to emulate that horton 2draw slap) but everything you hear on this recording is just a Chuck on the chord and a narrow to the 2. Everything 3 and up is generally a TB slap. Sometimes i don't even have to move my head much to play .... because my pucker is infront of the 2 and when i slap down in that position im on the 4. Or i can slightly move down toward the 1 and slap the 3. Or move up toward the 4 and slap the 6.
I would like to be ABLE to play full TB, but im not sure i ever would even if i could. Theres so many advantages to using both at the same time. But i would still like to perfect my bends and tone in TB.
Anyhow thanks for the kind words guys. Don't let me fool you though. My playing is like a house if cards. Lol.
I have decent tone and whatnot. And im ok at 2nd position, but 1st and 3rd Ive got very little. And I would like to have more material to draw from.... licks wise. Particularly in the 5 chord area. And my theory knowledge is practically non existent.
I really need to work on becoming more well rounded. The chromatic is out there in the distance teasing me too.
Speaking of positions. I have been taking baby steps into 3rd for a while now. I got into some good Ricci videos the other night and they really lit a fire under me to learn 3rd. Idk why, but stuff started to click. Particularly in the bottom octave, where i was having the most trouble navigating freely and coming up with new licks. Other than the handfull that i knew. Its just frustrating because Im FINALLY able to flow around the harp nicely and playing 3rd feels like im stuck in quicksand again.
The way I think I learned 2nd (and continue too) is by stealing licks and phrases from the songs i hear. So what are some of the best 3rd position songs for doing this?
Thanks guys.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 01, 2017 3:37 PM
Really really really good man! You must put in so much more practice than me, or you just 'have it', keep up the good work. Kinda makes me wonder at what point forum members should graduate full time to the big boys forum! Ha.... One question. I've heard that ending lick on your first take somewhere before, or something similar. Can you do me a favour and decode it for me? I'd like to steal it!
Thanks alot Ian. As a matter of fact i really dont "practice" very often. Although thats about to change if Start to learn 3rd position. Ill be back to basic repetition trying to get my muscle memory locked in on these new patterns. Especially on navigating the lower octave with all those bends.
I "Play" all the time. And listen to music constantly. When I play I either play to a song on an album and try to decode licks and general styles of artists. OR i play improv stuff like these videos. If I learn a new lick I cram it into an improv like this and figure out different ways to get in and out of it. Aswell as changing the tempo and feel of the improv so that I learn how to change the licks to form to different cituations. Or if they work at all in that particular rythm. This also helps being able to Improv in general by knowing how to go multiple directions out of nearly anything you play.
Anyhow, as i said above, my shortcomings are in no short supply. And if you really break down my playing, its not all that complicated it just seems like it. Lol.
Funny you should bring up that lick. I literally just learned it. I brought it up in the "5 chord licks" thread. I bumped the thread back to the top for you. Alot of people use this lick. Jason Ricci uses it sometimes. I heard it in a video and for some reason it just jumped out at me and I HAD to learn it.
Absolutely! But that feels even more foreign than 3rd. As much as I mess with it, i just can't find much that flows wwll up there. Or if I do, i can't find anything that sounds like it belongs. Meaning ... any licks i do up there dont sound right when i come back down to the middle octave. I need not only some good licks, but those that don't sound totally out of place in a normal run.
Everything of Hortons that i try to copy in the high register seems to be very situation specific. Meaning it fits a certain rythm or a certain instrumental. Not really many one size fits all type licks. Or maybe there is, i just haven't been paying enough attention
Not much chop up there myself. 1st is ok. But you only need one lick to get started. I suppose. One of my repairs customers does a thing in Help Me which takes him all the way up to the top. It's pretty cool. I must get him to show me what that is. I saw it on video but I'll never find it again, I'll have to ask.
It's tricky I know. But the big thing I learnt from listening to Walter Horton in particular is that it's not always about constant movement. You're thinking riffs and runs, that somehow you've got to join up top and bottom as a homogenous whole, and you have to always be moving about. BW often just plays long notes, or little rhythms on one or two notes - and you can do that too!
Try playing some rhythms on 9B, to which you can add lots of expression. You've got the skills - hold it straight, then with vibrato, staccato rhythms and syncopated beats, dips and bends. Alternate with the 8B. When you get to the IV chord, you can let fly in '1st position' - and don't forget 10B, normally reserved for Whammer Jammer impersonations and crazy-blow-bend-blue-third-endings, but it's a valid note during IV.
With other instruments, playing high notes is 'a thing', it's often demanding technically and adds excitement. That carries across to the harp, where it's technically very easy! Lucky us. You can pretend to the audience that you are putting massive effort in (think trumpet players, cheeks, screaming double-high Cs) but really you are delicately blow bending the 9 through a big amp.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 02, 2017 5:47 AM
10 blow bend is a flat 3rd in 2nd, flat 7 in 1st (ie the IV chord when playing based in 2nd: hope that's not confusing!), and over the IV chord you can release the bend to the root (the octave I suppose is more accurate) or go the other way from the straight 10 blow, bend it for the 7th and slide to 9 blow for the 5th, bend it through the flat 5 toward the 4th and slide to the 8 blow/blow bend for the 3rd/flat 3rd, and resolve down to the blow 7 root. That's basically the world of 1st position on the high end. If you get comfortable with the blow bends it's kind of the blowing equivalent of 2nd position draw/bend playing on holes 1-5. I expect mtg has it pinned, playing high in second allows you to exploit the IV chord and the trick is to have some I chord stuff to put around it, then be ready to make a nice leap for the V chord. I think the Jerry McCain high chorus in Steady might be a good thing to study
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 02, 2017 6:03 AM
That's good detail. I guess the high end blow notes/bends in 1st position (or 2nd over the IV) feel similar to the low end draw notes in 2nd position - in the sense that it's all there on a plate, and you can get great results playing by ear and feel.
I'm only trying to nudge you to get even better. Let's not lose sight of the OP in that that you've done a really great job with the low end of the harp in 2nd.
You seem comfortable pulling phrases out of the bag and joining them up into a whole.
I hope you are pleased with yourself, I would be!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 02, 2017 8:18 AM
Joe ive been at it for about 19 months. I had a crappy bluesband harp that i kept in the drawer, for a few years. But never got much past single notes and train rythms.
So even though i had a bit of a headstart, Im counting from the day i bought my first "real" harp.
I still have the receipt ... lol. I kept it so i wouldn't forget the date.
OK I'm going to be really annoying here and ask you something else about your very very last little run at the end of the last video. From about 50 seconds onwards. You run down and up and it sounds really smooth. What's your route? Cheers dude.
Ian. It's not annoying at all. Im actually flattered that someone wants me to break down one of my licks. Lol. The only annoying part is trying to figure out how to notate all those little layers of other stuff going on. I just sat and broke it down and there's actually a bit more "extra stuff":going on than i thought. But the basic notes are ....
-3-4 +6-5-4+4+3-3'-2-1+123(Huck)-3'-2-2
Hope that helps. Like I said, there's some little nuances in there to make it sound a little more ... thick and rythmic, i guess?. Mostly tongue block slaps And things like that.
On the -3' bends, I do a dwah or a scoop. Starting at like a -3" and raising up to a -3'.
Its basically just a scale run downward. With a little bit of flashing it up.
Thanks man. Let me know if you can get it to sound right. This would actually make a good lick to do a subtleties video on. There's a lot of little things in it that i do that i didn't even realise until i broke it down.
Theres alt of patterns that i over use. Jason Ricci has a video about breaking these automatic patterns. I think it's something i need to work on.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 06, 2017 9:56 AM
Geez listening to this now, it sounds so dull and boring. Like I was so bored playing it. I need to start using a backing track when doing videos. Maybe it ll help add a little pep to it.
