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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Maybe playing harp isn't always enough
Maybe playing harp isn't always enough
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Fil
183 posts
Sep 18, 2016
4:03 PM
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i wasn't sure how else to title this topic, but it seems appropriate for the beginner forum.... I heard about a blues band playing in a bar about an hour's drive away. My wife and I made the trip this afternoon. Pretty good three piece - lead guitar/singer, bass, and drums - but not traditional blues. At break I struck up a conversation. He asked if I played. I said harp. Want to get up? I said all I have with me is an A (always carry it). He said that most of what they play is flatted (message there?). I begged off. He said they had a harp player at one time, a one dimensional player who didn't do anything else, but that they needed more...like vocals, ability to take his share of the lead. Asked if I do more like that. I said I'm working on it and he said it's important.
I recall comments in some threads over the years about how important it is for a harp player who wants to play out to do vocals and lead, that a band needs some versatility. It makes me think about Bee's "New band, debut set list" topic. Seems like that's one factor that got him the gig. Bee, is that fair to say?
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Phil Pennington
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SuperBee
4125 posts
Sep 19, 2016
2:10 AM
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Hi Fil,
In my case I think it definitely helps that I lead some songs. For one thing it has made it easier to get up and running because repertoire is expanded with a one-time boost of two bags coming together. My repertoire is not very big though so future expansion will be at more normal pace.
I know Paddy appreciates being able to just play guitar sometimes, as I appreciate just playing harp.
I understand that comment about ‘one dimensional’. I’m quite fortunate to be in with some people who are interested in playing stuff from a ‘golden era’ of songs with harp, but even so there are many numbers in which the harp is not really a feature.
I don’t play any other instruments well-enough to perform in the band, so harp and vocals is it.
One thing I try to do is back up by imitating roles of other instruments.
Some of these songs which never had a harp on the record may have had a sax and I can try to pick out some things to play in that role. Or maybe something like an organ might do, or like a rhythm guitar part, maybe a bass pattern; just something where the harp is blended into the background rather than in the face.
I agree that for a ‘harp only’ player trying to find a working band is difficult. If you can sing, that’s good. If you don’t have any other instrumental skills, try to be versatile with the harp, be the best accompanist you can be. Usually playing in that way doesn’t require you to be especially fluent or even inventive, but to have good tone and sense of time, really listen to the band and have good control over the (especially draw) bends.
Must say, I’m not claiming to be great at this yet but I am going to be getting much better at it.
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Killa_Hertz
1756 posts
Sep 19, 2016
12:08 PM
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Very interesting thread. I dont play out yet, so I'm always interested to hear what to expect.
I would think (like you say Bee) Horn lines would be very effective. I have been wanting one of those EHX B9 pedals. You could play all types of organ parts.
Hmm. Interesting. Perhaps I will try to get some versatility in my game .. lol
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Fil
184 posts
Sep 19, 2016
4:46 PM
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The first question I was asked at the very first jam I signed up for was "do you sing?"
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Phil Pennington
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MindTheGap
1762 posts
Sep 20, 2016
12:41 AM
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Yes I expect you're right. Fine for those of you that can sing :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 20, 2016 12:42 AM
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Fil
185 posts
Sep 20, 2016
12:45 PM
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Re: the other forum...maybe you could work on your f-bombs.... :)
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Phil Pennington
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SuperBee
4128 posts
Sep 20, 2016
2:15 PM
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When I first met Paddy it was in the context of looking for a guitarist for my band which had been around about a year at that time. One of the things I liked about him was that in addition to playing guitar he could sing, play bass and even sit in on drums. That band broke up but I suppose when I thought I was auditioning him it turned out he auditioned me. It's just taken 2 years to find a drummer.
As far as getting to play with other people, whether you are multi skilled is a factor in some scenarios, especially if there's money involved, because a specialist harp player is an expensive option unless they are good enough to be generating business for the band.
Being able to sing is a plus in those public jams, because it puts you able to lead, and if you are singing and leading, you call the breaks and the volume and get to play songs you are prepared for, which can make for a more satisfying experience than being allocated 12 bars in a loud straight ahead beat with 3 guitars trying to outdo one another over a drummer channeling a ginger baker solo.
But you know for me the best experience of playing with others, in some ways, has been this semi-regular private garage jam. It doesn't matter there that you only play harmonica, or even if you only know 1 line to play. When I started going over to that jam I knew very little. I could bend notes and I had ok tone but I had very little repertoire and idea of improvisation.
This was 6 years ago.
The bass player was very raw too.
I learnt a lot about how to fit in just playing in that jam, and that's where I started singing. Anything new I'm working on gets a run in that setting. New gear gets tested there, new songs.
And it's relaxed. Sunday afternoon. A couple beers. There's a drummer now, who is also learning to play while jamming. Also an extra guitarist (that's 3 guitars now). I could probably start taking my guitar and learn something.
We had an extra harp player along a few weeks ago, which led to the likelihood of yet another harp/sax/flute man attending in future, and we've had a couple of other drummers, I even got Paddy along to play bass one time.
So what I mean is, there are ways to play harp socially even if you 'only' play harp. But for sure there are more options if you have other skills.
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MindTheGap
1763 posts
Sep 20, 2016
2:54 PM
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Fil - yeah! :)
Well, I'm sitting on the drum throne now, and I set up the PA and arrange the music. I'm the one who knows how to coil up the cables correctly so they don't turn into spaghetti. So I'm indispensable ha ha.
There's many ways to contribute to music, if you can't sing. Traditionally drummers were essential because they owned the all-important Ford Transit van. I don't even have one of those.
SuperBee's got a good point about the money - the fewer of you the better. That's always been a driver for multi-tasking.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 20, 2016 2:59 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1767 posts
Sep 22, 2016
4:58 AM
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I feel like if I had a blues band, a Black singer would almost be a requirement for me. Call me crazy, but alot of us white guys like to throw that Uhh Huh Elvis style voice on. It's SO tiresome. I hate it. There are many great bands out there that I simply cant listen to because of the singer just sounding so Corny.
Acutally just this morning someone told me to check out Brian Santini. When I put him up on spotify I was excited to see the song names on his Live Album. One More Mile, Have a Good Time, Evil Woman, Backscratcher, etc. And his harp playing is great. But he is one of those guy im talking about here that have that Hokey Corny White Guy Voice. It just kills it for me.
That Being said if I were in a band I dont think I would object to singing the occasional song to break up the monotony and (as bee said) give me a chance to play songs on harp in a lead position. Because most of the songs we all Love are lead position songs unfortunately.
As far as making yourself more valuable to the band. I go back to using the harp to create other sections, by imitating other instruments. If you could use effects, etc. to imitate a Organ, or play convincing Horn Lines, I feel like you are much more valuable. Because as was brought up, A harp is an expensive Extra to a band. But if they are getting Harp, Horns, Organ, etc. All out of one guy. I mean that seems like a no brainer.
I have heard some very convincing Organ out of a harp player. Aswell as Horns.
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Fil
186 posts
Sep 22, 2016
7:46 AM
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I guess if I were in that band I would expect some singing competence. Breaking up the monotony wouldn't be a good enough reason. And even a so called black voice can be contrived and inauthentic. I think the guy who asked me the question meant sing with some ability, suited to the music. Obviously, more harp skills, and any other relevant skills, add to your value and open up opportunities. That's where a beginner needs to start. But I think singing, rough as mine is, has helped my harp skills, such as they are. Timing, breathing, playing from the gut, style, improvising, And for an old white guy, kind of liberating. But, what works for me doesn't work for everybody. BTW,I had a couple of paid gigs this summer in a small, very local band where I did my share of singing.
Oh, check out James Harman.
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Phil Pennington
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Killa_Hertz
1770 posts
Sep 22, 2016
8:54 AM
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Yea your right Fil. You would ofcourse have to be competent. By breaking up the monotony I was referring to what BEE is doing in his current band. when he steps up to take lead, the guitar player gets to just chill a minute and play a supporting role. So it changes things up for your band members. And it changes things up for the crowd aswell. I think breaking up the monotony is a GREAT reason to do it.
And as far as the white/black singers, I'm generalizing of course.
I'm not trying to say that no white guys can sing blues. I do like james harman. I also like William Clarke's singing, and Rod Piazza. Kim Wilson can go either way sometimes. Oh, Sugar Ray Norcia... forget about it .. he's awesome. And there are plenty of others.
I was just trying to say that in general I find a Black singers voice more appealing to my ear when it comes to blues music. I wasn't trying to come from a blues purist angle. It was simply my taste. and my observation.
I would love to do some singing. I dont think I have TOO much of a white guy voice, lol. But im not exactly a natural performer, I have a bit of Social Anxiety. Not sure I'm the guy for the frontman job, lol.
That is interesting that you say singing helped your harp playing. Your not the first person I've heard say that. Something I'll keep in mind.
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SuperBee
4130 posts
Sep 22, 2016
8:38 PM
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Fil you are on the money with that. There is a real synergy with singing and playing; each helps the other. Both physically work out a lot of the same muscles/nerves. The same connections are made about pitch and phrasing, time, breath control, relaxing throat, diaphragmatic support etc.
Of course there are differences too, but the crossovers are there.
I'm stuck being a culturally Anglo Australian who likes blues music, so when it comes to singing I guess I just have to make do with what's available. I try hard to not affect an accent or idioms of a different culture...sometimes I slip up. growing up I was a shocker for always putting on voices...too much tv. But when I sing, the words just come out, it's kinda hard not to use the voice of your muse I find.
I heard a guy one night, doing a Tom waits song in a Tom waits voice. I thought it jarred. But I understand he probably wasn't doing it on purpose.
I like singing in A but I don't really like playing second position in A. Maybe that's another reason I've taken to 1st position
At heart, the blues music is all about the singer, I believe. Instrumentals, virtuoso players, sure. But the soul of the music is as vocal music IMHO.
Another reason to dig jr wells...oh and another reason the harp is so prominent in the true blues, and the slide, because it gets closest to those vocal characters
So that's a thing. Who do folks like as vocalist?
Off the top, I love Nina Simone. Jr Wells, Aretha, muddy, and then I have to think. I know Aretha isn't strictly a blues performer but I can't remove her from my instant recognition machinery
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MindTheGap
1768 posts
Sep 23, 2016
1:34 AM
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Re accents and voices, it's much simpler having grown up in the UK. Where everyone put on an American accent for vocals - some quite extreme. And without shame. So much so that not to sing in American was the exception until fairly recently. So, not a problem here. That's not Elton John's normal speaking accent - "Huntin' the horny backed toooowwwd".
In fact, when people consciously sing in an 'English' accent it can come across as a bit of a novelty thing. "The Laughing Gnome" anyone?
But we're not the only ones. I'm not a CCR fan as such, so correct me, but from what I read they all came from the West Coast but used accents from the South. What did people in the US make of that at the time?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 23, 2016 1:41 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1779 posts
Sep 23, 2016
4:44 AM
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MTG I actually didnt know that about CCR. Hmm.
SuperBee I think your right about it being a Vocal thing. Everything else is just supporting the vocals. Never thought of the harp being the instrument that gets closest to the vocal register. Thats interesting. The old blues was just a guy and his guitar. Or his harp. Front porch type jamming. I think thats why if the vocals dont hit it just right, I just cant be bothered. It just seems fake to me or something.
Intersting comments about imitating. I know exactly what you mean. It's hard not to. But i suppose live you dont want to come across the wrong way. I suppose it would be tough to find a voice all your own that actually works with the music of various artist.
BEE if you like Jr. Wells Vocals ( who doesnt ) you should really check out the Carey Bell LP "Last Night"
His vocals are spot on like Jr Wells. A good bit of careys early stuff is, but this even more so.
Off the top of my head Vocalists. Wells, Muddy, Rice Miller, Little Sonny, Wolf, Jimmy Rogers, going the other way I would say Ronnie Shellist.
I could come up with some more if I thought about it, but thats right off the top.
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MindTheGap
1769 posts
Sep 23, 2016
5:39 AM
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If you like the crossover between harp and voice, and you do get into the trumpet (as per your post on the MF) then you'll find something there too.
In my normal fashion I've read up all about it - although understanding it isn't the same as being about to do it! That's painfully obvious. Anyway, that's how people talk about the trumpet - it's only a fancy pipe and doesn't do much for you. The expression is all from the player, and people make parallels with singing.
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