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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players > Hoo hie coochie man
Hoo hie coochie man
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SuperBee
3925 posts
Jul 17, 2016
4:44 PM
I think we talked about this a bit before, but maybe not specifically.
I've got a small gig coming up, in 5 weeks. The band hasn't rehearsed yet, and I haven't met the drummer.
It's only 1 50 minute set during a festival. So we need maybe a dozen songs. I'll draw half those from my old list and half from the guitarist's bag. So I have 6 or 7 songs to learn in 5 weeks, and I don't have a list. I think HCM will be there though.
Because I like 1st position and Little Walter played it in 1st, that is the version I intend to emulate.

So I'll see if I can document my progress and process in this thread. I just had the idea on the way to work so can't make a start for a few hours yet, and if the documentation becomes too time consuming I dunno...practical will have to take precedence but hopeful to get something here.
MindTheGap
1712 posts
Jul 18, 2016
1:13 AM
I learnt Hoochie Coochie Man from the record, in 1st position. Then for a while I switched to playing it in 2nd position so I could play a solo more easily. But then I though that sounded to generic and went back to 1st.

It doesn't change the main riff much, but I prefer all the other accompanying phrases in 1st, they are much more distinctive.

Although I really love the 2nd position harp with all it's wails and classic phrases, I think it's important during a set to add some variety.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 18, 2016 1:15 AM
SuperBee
3926 posts
Jul 18, 2016
7:06 AM
Paul Oscher with muddy waters
Paul Oscher playing the 1st position approach here. I particularly like the classic low end 1st position licks here when the chord changes
MindTheGap
1715 posts
Jul 18, 2016
3:03 PM
Yes, exactly. Very satisfying.
SuperBee
3927 posts
Jul 18, 2016
6:20 PM
Ah, my 9-5 life, more like 8-8. I wasn't in a position to do much with this until after 8pm, and that was really just about listening and posting the link above. This morning I put in some work and I think I have a pretty serviceable accompaniment part down, tonight I must work on getting it down with a track. Except I won't get home until 8 again as its blues club committee night.
SuperBee
3941 posts
Jul 23, 2016
5:24 PM
Got to meet the band yesterday. First up, they called this song, but in E. That's so messed up. First position on an E harp? Get outta here.
Then they started out playing Mannish Boy rather than hoochie coochie man. I said 'hang on, what's the deal here? Those songs are not quite the same; HCM hangs on the I chord for 8 measures, what is the deal with Mannish Boy?'
Apparently it stays on the 1.
I hate both songs, from the point of view that I'd never choose to perform them.
Anyway, if the story above is true, I can see playing mannish boy in second, in E, ie on an A harp, and HCM in 1st, also on an A harp.
That is what we agreed to anyway.

Once that kinda got sorted, they fired up again but this time with HCM and I was pleased with the results of my study.
The basic idea seems to work. After the signature riff, I'm copying little Walter to the best of my ability, although I haven't got all his moves, it's the timing which really matters.
I practice a bit while I'm walking and I think that does help with time.

So the point of this post? 1st position for HCM, 2nd for Mannish Boy. Same riff, same harp.
SuperBee
3942 posts
Jul 23, 2016
8:11 PM
I suppose for the sake of self-contained-edness, and because it's on the learners' page, this thread should detail the riffs
This maybe the most famous of all harmonica riffs?

So in 1st position the main riff is -2 -3' -2 -3' +4

In 2nd pos, that could be -1 -2" -1 -2" -2

I think we talked before about how that 1st position riff seems a bit like a 2nd position phrase, because all the notes are in the 2nd position minor pentatonic scale and so-called 'blues scale'. However, it resolves on 4 blow, which is of course the tonic note of 1st position, root note of the blow chord, and that's quite a strong feeling of resolution. It does serve to demonstrate though, how the minor pentatonic is able to fit over different chords because it omits the clash notes.

As MTG posted above, the main riff sounds very similiar whether you play it in 1st or 2nd, so big deal. It's the part of the song which comes next that makes the 1st position treatment so characteristic of the famous recording with little Walter.
MindTheGap
1722 posts
Jul 25, 2016
3:52 AM
Nice. A key feature of that riff, when I hear it on the recordings, is a marked dip up into that first note. That gives it the proper sound.
SuperBee
3943 posts
Jul 25, 2016
5:10 AM
Yes, the presentation of the riff is varied in a couple of ways. Sometimes that marked dip is present. And sometimes there is a double hit on the 3' and the 2 is left out. Sometimes there is a hot on the +4 to start the riff. It's all about the timing in a way, as long as the tonic is reached at the right time.
MindTheGap
1725 posts
Jul 25, 2016
9:20 AM
I didn't know that, thanks. I'll have to go and seek out some versions.
SuperBee
3945 posts
Jul 25, 2016
3:30 PM
It's very interesting (to me) to listen to these records with little Walter because he is breaking the 'rule' about playing all the time, a lot of the time. So it can be tricky to hear what he is doing when it's really 'in the mix'.
I'm sure I haven't got it all down yet but this song has been teaching me a lot about listening.
But one thing about his playing all the time is that he is nut just interjecting random stuff, he is playing an entire song. When the breaks stop, that is when muddy is singing the 'you know I'm him, everybody knows, I'm the hoochie coochie man etc' and everyone is playing, the stuff Walter is playing then is so rhythmical.
he hits the 4 blow repeatedly until the chord change at the end of 'you know I'm him' then it seem he goes to the 3'. This is difficult to describe.
SuperBee
3985 posts
Aug 13, 2016
4:12 PM
I have a version down now that I'm fairly happy with.
I'm not taking a solo, but I am playing through the whole song.
It's rather hard to analyse what I'm playing, using a text post. I must make a video.
I did listen somewhat deeply to little Walter, and the integration of what he plays with what the rest of the band plays makes that quite interesting. I expect people may hear different things.
I'm sure he had a number of variations on what he did, but for the moment I was happy to get through an entire 16 bars and back to the start feeling I was in time and in key throughout.
It's actually somewhat of a ride in terms of the time. Just hooking into the time-feel of the harp in this song has given me quite a different appreciation of it.
SuperBee
3988 posts
Aug 13, 2016
8:34 PM
try this and see if it plays:

SuperBee
3989 posts
Aug 14, 2016
6:23 AM
Anyone got a different take on it?
SuperBee
3993 posts
Aug 15, 2016
4:10 AM
Ok, well having laid down that recording and now going back to the record I can hear how very different is what I've made up. In some ways.
Walter plays it through 3 times and varies it each time. He never does what I did but at times I think he does similar things.
I'll keep working on it. Interested to hear your versions.
Rontana
344 posts
Aug 15, 2016
8:17 AM
The following is in absolutely NO way a criticism. Rather, it is simply food for thought (and a personal, philosophical opinion).

Whenever I see people write about playing classic songs, it always seems they strive to emulate the harp parts played by the greats.

I'm simply curious as to why more folks don't try and come up with a different way of playing these tunes. Different licks and different styles and such . . . putting their own mark on the song.

Maybe this is just me, because I find that approach more satisfying and fun. All this said, I do not perform and have absolutely no inclinations in that direction (the deer, coons, skunks and coyotes in the fields behind my house are my only audience).

Is the emulation done partly (or mostly) because the audience (or the rest of the band) expects something accepted and familiar?

This has long been a question in my mind.
MindTheGap
1740 posts
Aug 15, 2016
9:15 AM
That sounds like just the right thing Superbee. There's a bit I like to play when doing this song, where it goes 3' 3'' 2 3'' 3' or similar, nice ambiguous blue pitches. I think that's LW.

EDIT: removed ramble. Rontana, I like to copy what I hear on the records because I want to sound like them. I'm not interested in innovating or self-expression with this kind of music.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Aug 15, 2016 9:44 AM
SuperBee
3996 posts
Aug 15, 2016
6:35 PM
Thanks mtg, it's good to get some feedback
Ron, I do both things. This song though I think it's good for me to learn what is going on. I do think my band mates and the audience have an expectation of songs like this. While it's probably not out of the question I might come up with something better or at least ballpark equivalent by letting my creativity loose, I think it's also unlikely. Especially in the short amount of time I have to prepare.
SuperBee
3997 posts
Aug 15, 2016
7:22 PM
And I dunno. You take a song like this which is so well known. The aim may very well be to put ones own spin on it, but for me at least, the starting point is to study the existing song and learn to play it. Once I understand the song and why it's been so successful, become so famous I'm better placed to have ideas and evaluate them for myself.
To me there is satisfaction in this analysis and mimicry. And a lot of learning. As MTG drew attention to in this thread, the scoop on the first note of the riff is a subtlety which one may not detect at first but through study and comparison comes an awareness of something which may in fact feed into ones own bag of tricks.
When I play something like little Walter and I get it right, ish, it's an amazing feeling. I sometimes feel that someone is speaking with my tongue. Tongue blocking is so physical and so much like speaking or perhaps singing, but like speaking a language only spoken by few. I don't speak very much little Walter, but it releases something in my brain which I find very satisfying.
For now I'm happy I've got a way through hoochie coochie man in 1st position. I'll come back to it and work on variations but this will do, I can gig with it.
As a bonus I've been able to adapt those lines to play a low octave solo in bright lights big city. And generally it's given me a better way of looking at adaptation of basic riffs/licks/scales and improved my jamming skills.
Next focus is 'I've got my mojo working'. The challenges are around the timing and the movement and they want a solo from me this time. I think I can fudge my way through the comping, I basically have it but need to sharpen up
MindTheGap
1741 posts
Aug 15, 2016
11:07 PM
I think 'mojo working' is tricky. At least with Hoochie Coochie man there is the well-known main riff, then the choice is what to play for the rest of it. With 'mojo working', I discovered, there are loads of quite different approaches to playing the main bit, although the solos are often similar.

When we play it, I've landed on simply playing a rhythmic tongue-slapped 2D as fills during the vocals. And/or a quick 4' 3' 2 2.

Be interesting to hear what you decide on.
SuperBee
3999 posts
Aug 16, 2016
6:51 AM
I tried the one where it goes 1 1 2" 2 1 2" 2 (I think, can't check atm). I got bend fatigue and full of air pretty quick, but I like that approach.
I also like that intro with the call and answer kind of thing which starts with scooped 4 draws to 4' to 3' to +4 3' 2 something. And the answer uses 2 draw a lot.
And I like the 2 draw focus. I can do that s long time.
But I'm gonna try to learn the first one I mentioned and give it a few days. If I don't get it quickly I will go with what I can do.
And sloppy drunk I have done the SBW approach for a long time. I'd like to do something like bully branch but I think I don't have time for that. I like the sonny boy way so I'll do that but try not to play every fill. I do like my solo in that song but maybe I'll have to give something up or it will be just too much harp.

In my previous blues band I grew used to doing lots of fills but this band is so much more capable and experienced in blues that I need to remember to keep the harp silent a lot more. Which is hard because the guitarist encourages me to play a lot.


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