My motive has always been to play amplified, and I'm convinced that I get the best sounds playing quietly. That includes playing into a vocal mic.
However, I'm always impressed by acoustic playing when it's brash, loud and insistent. I think of Adam's playing like that. I don't seem to be able to do it naturally, it always comes out forced and unmusical. Truth be told, I'm not massively happy with my playing quietly, acoustically. It does have a practical advantage that practising is more practical at that volume.
Anyway, this morning I did a recording of voice level vs acoustic harp under controlled conditions. Same mic distance, plain-as-a-pikestaff playing, no compression. You may have to turn it up to hear it properly, because the headroom required to accommodate the transients (which are pretty strong on harp articulations) means that the overall volume has to be quiet.
I've shown you mine, so.... :)
Here's the trace, so you can see the relative volume of voice and harp.
Im at work on break at the moment so i can listen to that just yet. But i have recently been growing my acoustic volume. I think it kinda grows with my tone quality.
Also using alot of hand manipulation helps greatly. Playing from a tight cup and not really wahs, but just popping the notes. Also using hands as if you were yelling, like a megaphone shape. That really resonates. Makes the tone better aswell as the volume.
Got to go, but i can't wait to listen to this n rip into this thread later. Maybe ill try paying some recordings of how i have been doing it. ----------
It's true you can do all kinds of tone shaping, swells and wahs. And using your hands at all can magnify the sound, or diminish it, as you wish. What I'm doing here is isolating the basic volume. I'm interested in that.
Since my goal isn't acoustic playing, I'm not massively interested in 'fixing it'. As I say, for playing into a microphone of any kind, I prefer the soft acoustic.
But does increased acoustic volume correspond to improved tone? Since everyone goes on and on about resonance then it would seem likely, but then I look at that archive footage of SBII where he's basically whispering the vocal then playing harp right up on the mic, and I wonder what the actual acoustic level was. Unless there was a sound engineer frantically turning the mic up and down between harp and vocal, seems like they were at similar levels. I'll never know.
But we can record and measure ourselves objectively, can't we? It's not a competition btw, I could play harder than this, but this is my actual default level.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 13, 2016 6:35 AM
No I'm not saying its a competition. I understand what your trying to do. I think. I'm just explaining my experience, so maybe it will jive with what your going for. Or just simply to explain where I'm at. All in the interest of helping eachother grow as harp players.
Sometimes I feel like I'm coming off as patronizing or something by explaining simple things that everyone already knows. But i find sometimes when i hear something from somebody else, things click. Sometimes it's s very simple idea that I was well aware of, but was just overlooking. So i give a detailed description of even the Simple things because you never know if it ll help someone. Even a year from now if somebody drags this thread up, so ...
Idk about acoustic volume corresponding to improved tone. It seems that now that my tone is better I tend to play a little louder.
Re SBWII ... I suspect he may not have been playing LOUDLY into the mic. But perhaps his notes had a certain level of Attack attached/applied to them ... ??
I was just trying to keep it on track, making sure it doesn't turn into a 'how loud can you play' thread. Although we could have one of those!
Your last questions hits the nail on the head: Can a person play quietly but with features that give it a good sound? Or is there something that only LOUD can give?
BTW on your other points, I'm delighted that here in the beginner's forum anyone can have anyone bring up anything they discover/think/conjecture/assert about playing, or harp technology, whether it's new to them or old hat, right or wrong, and we can have a good old chat about it. Go ahead and assert!
I know SuperBee has suggested we don't digress too much, but we've had some interesting digressions IMO.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 13, 2016 8:30 AM
On my held 2 draw .. im starting to get some impressive tone (impressive to me I mean. After so long of nasally notes.) So I think I may lean a bit more on the volume because it sounds good. But overall i would say Im a relatively soft player.
I want to stew on this before I Make any real claims, but ....
The feeling I have when hitting the held 2 draw is more like Im singing it. (With tremelo. I almost always add some throat tremelo.) AhhAhhhAhhAhh, but to match the tone of the 2 of the harp im using, with a yawn type thing going on. And it seems that I can still get the tone at a lowER volume, but it requires the same attack as it would when played loud. Just not as much air? I guess.
Idk like i said .. Im going to stew on it a bit n see. Maybe Ill do some clips later so you can tell me if this is the right volume your looking for. Loud is so subjective ... im not really sure. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 13, 2016 9:20 AM
OK. I'd love if it I could just draw more air and that increased the volume, but there's just not enough resistance. My perception is that after a while you're just pulling lots air through and it's not doing much work.
If the thing were really all about resonance, then when you hit the perfect spot, the resistance would go up suddenly and there would be a big transfer of flow energy to the reed vibrating. And I'm not talking auraus, psychic musical energy, channelling SBII, opening of the 3rd eye or woolly analogies here, I'm talking cold, hard PHYSICS :) P-H-Y-something-something: PHYSICS.
Part of me still thinks that some people are able to find a real resonance, in which case getting a big volume with little air would be a practical proposition. Maybe it's one of you.
This is interesting for me, as I only really play acoustically. I would love to be able to play at a really quiet level, it would make practice a lot more family friendly.
I can remember starting to learn to bend, and the experts were often quoted as saying you don't need to draw hard, you can bend with the lightest of breath force.
However, whenever I tried that, I just heard the rush of air through the slot with no reed activation at all - and you can only gap so tight before you get side effects.
What I later realised was that many of my early harps were session steels - and steel reeds do need a certain amount of force (to counter inertia at least). Only recently, when I bought a Marine Band Deluxe, did I realise the relative ease of bending with quality brass reeds. Not only do I now find it easier to get the half step bends, but I can play softer, quieter and with more expression.
It's my opinion that playing as quietly(softly) as possible is best for the sound produced - playing with more force might introduce artefacts that you might not want, such as excess reed vibration.
BTW Good to hear you speak, MTG - when are we going to see you on video? Need to put a face to the name... :)
First let me say that, i listened to your clip mtg and I would say by the sound of the recording, when I play the louder bits i was taking about ... they are not much louder than that.
Well ive been thing about this. And here are done ideas i have on the subject.
1) I think that just sucking in more air WILL make it louder. No? but doesnt get you better tone. I think it's in the attack. The attack is what i use (i think) to get better tone. Attack and more air for more volume.
2) The resistance (for me) is not created by the reeds, but by the backpressure i create in my mouth/throat. Does that make sense?
3) I think I understand now that your coming from aphysics standpoint. I still don't quite understand the point 100%
Ive heard you say that you dont have the harp very deep in your mouth. If this is true, i think that's one of your main issues. I couldn't understand why you said more air Doesnt equal volume. So i stopped typing and messed with the harp a bit. If i play with my lips kissed out its tough to create the tone im getting.
I have my harp touching the corners of my mouth.
For LP open your mouth, put the harp all the way in. Then while you close your lips to get a single note, let them flip inside out. So your creating the hole with the inside of your lips. But NOT tense lips. VERY RELAXED lips. Push the harp into them, not your lips against the harp. You do need to slightly resist the push of the harp, but other than that they should be pretty loose. (Sorry if this is too close to beginner stuff, but for all i know it will help)
For TB open your mouth wide, push the harp in till it touches the corners of your mouth. Close your mouth till your lips hit the covers. Thats it. Lol.
The thing is .. i think you need that perfect seal in order to create that backpressure. Then to create the backpressure i think i do something similar to a bending motion im not sure. Ill think more on it.
Im not sure if this is the key or not, but just my thoughts at the moment.
Sorry if this isn't what your looking for. I'm trying to figure out exactly the problem your having. Im still not 100% on that.
@Harmeless. "Bending with the lightest breath force"
I assure you its not the stainless steel reeds. I have SS, brass, bronze, all types of reeds. Im currently playing on a Session Steel while im typing. I can bend notes literally as light as i can make a normal note sound. So the problem is with your harps or your technique.
It's ok just keep workin at it, Bro. you ll get it. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 13, 2016 2:36 PM
Ok i think i came up with a good way to describe the backpressure movement. Its like you have hot food in your mouth.
What happens when hot food hits your mouth?
You drop your jaw. Make a shape inside your mouth like theres an imaginary egg in there, because you don't want that food touching the sides. Then you breathe out to blow on the food. Notice its that hot window fogging breathe people talk about. Notice what happens to the back of your throat and nose/soft palette. Exagerate the egg in the mouth and notice the throat and soft palette come along for the ride. Now you should have it. THATS the backpressure. I THINK. Ive been known to be "Mistaken" ... lol.
Hopefully this is what your looking for.
But if not atleast i know what the problem isn't. Lol. ----------
Maybe I'm not quite sure of the topic. Volume equates to tone? For one thing, as a critic I'd say aG's playing is strong but he tends to lack dynamic variety. To me that's a weakness. He definitely can play with dynamics, he just seems to be more oriented to rhythm, harmonic invention and speed. Those are strengths of his playing. I find his 'tone' inclined to harshness. If you mention 'good tone', Adam is not a player who springs to my mind. But maybe that's more his material and delivery. Big Walter is often mentioned as having good tone. Bbq Bob Maglinte tells us from his personal experience that BW was a very quiet player. My own 'belief' is that one needs only to blow 'hard enough'. The quieter you can play the quiet parts, the greater range you have available. David Barrett (a player who does spring to my mind at the mention of good tone) once asked a rhetorical question 'why do we like custom harps?', to which his answer was 'so we can play quietly'. Mark Hummel has emphasised that in his view 90% of practice should be done acoustically, as this is where an appreciation for good tone is developed. Andrew Zajac has spoken and written about dynamic range as a major consideration when setting up a harp. This is a concept that can be a little hard to explain...that if the reed 'shape' is optimum, it can be gapped a little wider...hmm, let's see...ok, dig this if you may...it's easy to make a reed play with light breath if you gap it tight. But such a reed will stall when you play with a lot of air. It's possible to make a reed play with the same light breath but with a wider gap, and such a reed will not choke as easily, thus will have a greater dynamic range. These are factors beyond mere gapping of the free end of the reed. So there are gains to be had there in terms of dynamic possibilities, but it is getting into 1% territory perhaps...I just mentioned it because with people typically gapping harps a bit tighter they may lose some range. AG has a yt on gapping a marine band (number 16 I think) where he is setting gaps wider..this is exactly because he plays 'freely' and wants the harp to respond with big sound. Myself, I don't really think in terms of volume as a factor in itself. I guess I have a default setting, and I may play with more or less intensity. If I play too loudly I stumble, too softly and the notes start dropping out. Truly, I don't think I've ever really considered volume per Se. Breath force is a better term for me. Actual loudness of the harp is obviously a consequence of that, but not one I really focus on. Maybe I should.
Thanks for the advice, but if the problem was my harps or technique and not the reeds, how come I find bending much easier on the Marine Band? I also find Lee Oskars more responsive, which also have brass reeds.
I'm sure there are many factors to consider, but I have many Session Steels (that I've tried to gap) and only one Marine Band (which is OOTB) and the difference is considerable.
It goes without saying that I'm not refuting your own experience - just reporting my own.
Of course, it's difficult to compare this kind of thing, because one person's 'light' breath force may be moderate to someone else...
Marine Bands are easier to play, thats why. But apples and oranges. Easier to bend vs cant easily bend(or at all) at minimum volume is two different things. No matter what harp you have you should be able to bend it at the lowest possible volume an unbent note can be played. If not something is wrong.
IDK there's alot of factors here, but i don't find SS reeds much different than brass. The reeds i have issue with are bronze and squeely lee oskar reeds. All brass isn't created equal, but ... whatever works bro.
@BEE. I agree with the general idea of your post. I try to have dynamics in every aspect of my playing. Soft to Hard LP to TB Quick Runs to Held Notes. Tons of notes to big spaces. Etc.
I find the Gaps in my harps to be fine for doing this. IDK. I could be wrong, but i don't think it's that tough. I do shape my reeds also, but im sure this is nowhere close to what someone like Spiers does. So i don't think it takes a pro setup to be able to play dynamically.
I was also kindof unsure of the issue at hand. In this post. But after rereading i think i get it now.
Btw before i forget. Mtg didn't say Adams TONE. He said brash & loud. I think that fits.
I think what you are looking for MtG is to play like Walter Horton or one of the old school guys right?
If so ... that's a toughie. I can get pretty .... well not pretty close ... but i can get the essence.
I still think it has alot to do with backpressure. To get those percussive pops and things.
Ide like to hear you elaborate more on what your looking to accomplish. Maybe there's something im not doing right, that i should be doing. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 13, 2016 5:29 PM
K: Your reed shaping is maybe not that far from what Joe does. I suspect it's less what he ends up with and more how he goes about getting it that sets him apart. All I'm saying is not all harps are created equal, and dynamic range is a thing and it has limits and if you choose a setup that responds well to light pressure it might cost some response at the other end...and vice versa. I agree that if the reed plays with a certain pressure, it should also play bent with very similar pressure....Unless the reeds in the chamber are poorly set.
This is a great topic! First as an aside, I'm really glad I chose to pop over here from the main forum the other day. This is what the main form was like back in the heady days of 2008 and 2009. I like it!
Now, to the OP. I'm generally on board with what Bee posted about finding the sweet spot on volume. I'd take it further on two points. 1) volume vs. Dynamic range. 2) Volume, resonance, and tone).
1. My own personal ideal is not to be able to play at a high volume, but rather to have a very large dynamic range. What I mean by that is that I want to be able to consciously control volume while playing, even over just a single note. I want to be able to swell into a note, and fade out of it. IMO,it's those dynamics that make music interesting to listen to. If you just play full out all the time, it's boring. Yes, there are times when you need to be going pretty well full bore. But if you practice controlling your dynamic range, you will still have "headroom" when playing all out, which you can use to make your playing more interesting.
#2) There is a relationship between tone and volume, but it's not direct. I think Killa is getting at it in some of his posts. IMO, what makes "good" tone also makes "louder" volume. And that is NOT increased breath force. Instead, it's finding your resonance that gives you both. Yes, dropping the jaw, etc, gives you your first clues about how to get there. BUT, resonance needs to be tuned to the note you are playing. So it's not a one stop shop. You have to train your body to hit the sweet spot for each note. When you do do it, not only does your tone improves, but you are also perceivably louder. IMO, this is the target to be after. I'm down the road a bit, but still chasing after it. I'm not sure if one ever gets "there", but you do get a lot closer if you try to find it.
MTG, I didn't have time to listen to your tracks yet. I'll try to do so tomorrow...
(edited for typos made when originally tapping out this post on my phone.) ----------
Yes certainly has limits. Thats what makes you progress in your Personal skills. Always tweaking. Trying to find out the optimum gap and profile. One that suits every dynamic that you play with. Ive gotten to the point where some my harps are better than I am I think.
Jumping back n forth With different reed materials it can take alot of time to get a good reed profile on an entire harp. So most of my harps are just pretty good. But pretty good is as good as I need right now.
One of my harps that i put alot of time into, i can overblow Half the notes on the harp with no issue. And i dont even overblow. ----------
Isaac ... yes .. great post. You gave a bit of clarity to my rambling thoughts. I have trouble typing as fast as im thinking. And often lose key points. I also TRY to keep my posts relatively short.
Your point number 1 I totally agree with. Thats what bee was hitting on earlier. The dynamic range is everything in my opinion. Without it your a 1D cartoon in 3D world.
Your point 2. Yes that is what I was TRYING to say. But didn't exactly know how to explain it. The resonance gives a certain boost in volume, depth and projection.
Im glad you brought up tuning your body to the note. Thats what i was missing. I said in a post earlier today. Im not sure in which thread. But something to the effect of the feeling of singing the note your going for, in conjunction with the yawn. Thats the key to the big projection i think. But as you said your never done working on it.
Not sure if anyone else knows what i mean about the backpressure principle.
Looking forward to hearing MTGs thoughts.
BTW Welcome over to the Darkside Isaac. Keep it on the Low. It's like or little club house over here. Dont bow up the spot. Lol. 8^)> ----------
1. Harp in Mouth: In fact I do have the harp deep in the mouth, so that's not it. (How dare you suggest I don't have the harp deep in the mouth :) LOL)
Being more precise about it I content that, after a certain depth, although the tone to my ears gets better as the harp goes deeper (e.g. the small difference LP vs TB) but the recordings show NO difference. Ditto with tilting the harp. Conclusion: What the player hears is NOT what the remote listener hears.
2. Resistance: The resistance is down to the reeds/gaps and how the air flow energy is transferred to the reeds (it has to be right? And I'm only stating the obvious with no special insight.) but I fully agree with your perception of the backpressure coming from the mouth throat. This suggests a resonance - but a feature of resonance is that you get a sharp, sudden sweet spot, not a range.
And while you get this effect strongly on the low notes, do you get it on e.g. 6D? I don't.
With a real resonance on the 2D I'd expect to feel that backpressure increase dramatically, and then a harder draw would make the reed vibrate to essentially any amplitude you want.
I tell you where I DO perceive a classic resonance, and that's on the OBs. There is a genuine sweet spot, either side of which the note barely sounds.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 14, 2016 12:02 AM
3. Dynamic Range: I agree that musically, dynamic range is what you want. That might include very loud though. If there is a (real) resonance to be found, above and beyond the regular 'harp deep in the mouth, drop the jaw' kind, then it would help with all aspects of dynamic range.
4. Older Players and Volume: Yes I've read that about Walter Horton too. When I've seen footage of him playing acoustically, I got the impression that he was playing loudly - but it's a recording so who knows.
There's a story in the LW bio (I may have got this the wrong way round, so forgive and correct) where SBII teaches LW how to play with in a way that's not going to be fatiguing for a long gig, the implication that it's more efficient than blowing full bore all the time.
Similar story with Paul Butterfield (but I can't remember the source). But in the case I have some hard evidence, for the result at least. I have is Paul Butterfield's teaching book/CD where he really is playing whisper quiet, and he mentions his low volume explicity. Most of it is acoustic, but when he demonstrates the same thing through a mic+amp, there it is - the fully formed PB amped sound.
So I'm currently fully convinced that quiet acoustic playing through the mic+amp is the way to do it. All that 'harp player bent double with effort' stuff I believe is showmanship. Even I do the same, throw head back and do a long 4-draw vibrato. Sounds massive through the amp, but I can do my best vibrato only at very low acoustic volume.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 14, 2016 2:52 AM
- Yes dynamic range, but how loud is your default, baseline level. Your comfortable level from which you may go louder or softer? (kHz has answered I think).
- Have you found resonance that makes the thing suddenly more efficient? If so please show and tell :)
On the social front, hello Isaac! And harmlessonica - thanks, but the world isn't ready. I'm not set up for video. I do like your vids though.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 14, 2016 1:20 AM
Thats alot of stuff to read so imma wrote this as i go
So 1) you're right what the player and listener hear are two different things. And some things when A/B ed don't even seem to make much difference to the player. But maybe it's not just that one thing, but multiple things your doing with that one thing that matter. All the little changes add up to a better sound. ??? Maybe ... just spitballing. Here i could be wrong.
2)There is a sweetspot, but i think your hung up on it being this SonicBoom of a difference. Like the clouds will part or something. I mean if you want to hear a difference listen to that video of isaacs when he was taking lessons from Buddha. I assert again that is not one little thing but multiple things stacked that get you from isaac (at the time) to Buddha.
As far as adding more air to get as loud as you want. I think there may just me a max volume the reed can put out. Maybe part of that limit is your lungs. Idk i think you obviously have a better understanding of physics, that i just dont possess, so maybe i just don't get it.
I haven't found snubbing that makes the harp more efficient. Again i think these are all small things that build something bigger. But ultimately it is what it is. I'm not sure the thing your looking for exists.
Because of this thread I was paying as quiet as possible this mornin. But playing a whole song. And i got some really good tone at minimal volume. So ... but i think the harder you play there are certain aspects that pop out. As for playing amped. I pay pretty dost amped aswell.
Thanks K. Lots of little additive things, I'm good with that. But as a beginner, imagine the dreadful situation if I were working on all those little things - all the while thinking I'm learning to be harp player - then years later finding I had actually missed some great big game-changing thing.
It is possible, it's valid question.
I've seen interviews with pro players, who in pre-internet-pre-teaching-materials days had to construct their technique from listening only.
One of the problems I've found when people demonstrate their secrets for improved tone is that they tend to exaggerate the 'bad tone' one and accentuate the 'good tone' one. E.g. tilt the harp level, yuch weedy tone, tilt the harp up, yum lovely tone. It doesn't ring true.
In my tests, your 'eating hot food mouth' idea easily trumps changing the depth of the harp in the mouth in terms of rounding out the sound.
But anyway, I digress, this is about volume not tone.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 14, 2016 5:14 AM
Tell yer wot.., I just compared my Spiers stage 2 to a substandard sp20...like a stock one that needs work imho. Big difference in dynamic range. Both play quietly but the Spiers plays much louder. Much
I'm not saying is not a valid question. I'm not even saying what your after doesn't exsist. For all i know in missing out aswell. Just my thoughts.
Tilting the harp. Thats all BS. Maybe for a beginner. These things are in place to make you aware of the harp position. I think maybe some people tilt down and that's no good. So if you favor the up side ... idk .. that's the only sense i can Make out of it. As a raw beginner i spent alot of time consentrating on how i was holding the harp and the tilt thing. Its all non sense.
All about volume not tone. I think they are a bit linked. If i suck realy hard i get say level 7 volume. Add yawn + the backpressure i very say level 9. So not night n day, but it is louder.
And the louder it is the more you can hear the improved tone. I think that's what i was getting at. But If plsying amplified ... i have found recently that i can get good tone at minimal volume, so if paying amped you dint need to rip on it. Like butterfield, no need to rip just turn the amp up. Idk. More than one way to skin a cat. But im not sure the thing your looking for is real. If it is ide like to know aswell. ----------
Great, well we have this thread here so if anyone does feel they have something I/we are missing out on, they can add it here, with an A/B demo.
What I'm asking about is the 'opera singer' effect, a step change in loudness over what an untrained singer might achieve.
Superbee - so you are suggesting it might be the harp, not the player??? What new heresy is this? :) I can believe it, we've touched on it before in the 'why should I buy a custom harp?' thread.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 14, 2016 5:53 AM
Well I think i may be able to get a step change in loudness over an untrained player. I think that has to do with all the techniques Ive described. Learning to efficiently and effectively use your air to sound the reeds by manipulating your mouth. throat, etc.
I just dont think its as drastic an increase as you would like.
But as an example. How about a:
(1) New Player playing a 2 draw.
(2) A Begginer Playing a 2 draw.
(3) A Pro Playing a 2 draw.
There are huge differences between 1 & 2 of course because a raw beginner 2 draw is often "broken"
There is also quite a difference between 2 & 3 A Boost in tone, clarity, etc.
I dont know if this is really helpful, but .......
Ok, back today with some more thoughts and some responses/additions to the subsequent posts above.
1) More on resonance. In response to MTG's query, I certainly know that I play "louder" on average now than I did, say, 10 years ago. I'm also very aware that I am much more resonant when playing now than then. This is a clear correlation, and I'm fairly convinced that it's a causal link (but couldn't say for 100% certain, I suppose). Based on my own experimentation, I'm convinced resonant playing, when tuned to the note being sound, results in dramatically louder acoustic sound, without increased effort. Listening to MTG's sample, I think my acoustic volume is louder than that. I'd have to record myself, which I might try to do tonight.
2) The idea of back pressure. I do think it's real, and I'd say that it has two do with two things: embouchure and airtightness of the harmonica. You need that embouchure to get the air flowing right to generate the back pressure, but you also need a good, airtight harmonica, or else the pressure cannot build up. I think this _related_ again to the same things that make for resonance and pleasing tone, but back pressure is a different aspect of it. I believe Bee 100% when he says that his Stage 2 is louder and has more range. I hypothesize that the back pressure component of tone and loudness is at play there. What is interesting to me is that when I used to hang out with Chris Michalek back in the day, he had huge resonance and huge tone and big volume. BUT, his own set of harps were nearly stock Golden Melodies that he rarely cleaned and didn't work on (despite the fact that he was a top customizer). He said that at the level he was at, he could compensate for the deficiencies of any harmonica with technique. I don't know how, exactly he did that, but given what I heard of his playing on those manky old harps of his, I am more than willing to believe that he could! ----------
Isaac I don't doubt that's your perception, but here I'm trying to something more measureable. Taking kHz's statement of the question (Newbie/Beginner/Pro) what is the actual range of volume available?
If someone wants to make in recording of their playing a well adjusted SP20 and a custom using the same breath force, that would be helpful. If so the thing to avoid it trying to prove the thing you want to prove, like playing the sp20 softly and your custom loud. Post an mp3 and screen shot of the trace (or I'll do it from the mp3).
One interesting and surprising thing from my quick test, was that I always perceived the Crossover as being naturally louder than the SP20 or LO. The trace shows they are all about the same. Surprising. It may be that if went 'full bore' they might come out different.
Personally I'd prefer not to be diverted by conjecturing here about the mechanics of the thing. Because none of us knows how it works. At some level it's fascinating and at another level I'm only interested in the results.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 12:18 AM
I should add another FACT (which I've trotted out before) that the time I went to see a real-live teacher, his loudness on the low notes came from changing his mouth/throat to enhance harmonics. This changes (sharpens) the timbre rather than just making the same note louder.
If you are doing a recording, another useful demo would be to play your 4D with and without resonance, at the same breath force. I can work out the volume difference in dB and look at the harmonic content.
I don't think I have a good/bad resonance on that hole, so I can't lead the way. But if you do, this may point towards the missing thing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 2:16 AM
If anyone's interested here are the results of playing a 4D on a Bb harp, as quietly as is still a solid note, and as loudly as possible. No hands, 1 foot from mic.
The first shows the linear trace, to give an idea. The 2nd is the same thing shown in dB. So my dynamic range on that note is something over 20dB.
(In case you're not sure what dB means in this context, it's a ratio between the two numbers and really not comparable with dBA e.g. the sound of a whisper or a Saturn V taking off, or a rock band being 110dBA :))
I think 2 and 4 ate the notes i can get the best results on.
I tried earlier to play by just sucking like a straw. And i could only get so loud. When i changed embouchure and put the backpressure on it I reached that extra level of volume. Im not sure its the HUGE increase your looking for, but it was a good 25%.
Isaac Re2 ... I know backpressure is real. Aswell as i know the embouchure is key. All add the airtight harp. I brought all these points up, but what im not sure exsist is the Sonic Boom/ Night n Day difference that mtg is looking for.
The backpressure volume increase does require more effort. Its not like a switch that just makes a volume boost. But it doesnt seem to necessarily require more air. It just allows the air your using to put more force on the reed. Whereas without it it seems like you can suck as hard as you want and it just won't get there. Its similar to a really hard gritty growling 2"draw. If you really pull on that bend hard you should feel it. But not pull on it from the mouth. Pull it with the bottom of your throat. I hope this makes sense. Well either way this is similar to the backpressure ... just without the bend.
I think alot of it from pros .. like chris ... may also come from the ability to use your air more effectively in one way or another. ----------
Yes, I totally agree the backpressure concept/perception, however it arises. I think you describe it well - not dissimilar to people's description of the perception of bending being that it feels like you are reaching in an grabbing the reed.
People often say you don't need to draw hard to bend a note, that it's not part of the technique. And I agree with that, but it's surely a FACT(?) that a certain amount of backpressure occur. I'd say 'partial vacuum' but I'm happy with 'backpressure'.
A. Play a 3D bend and allow a leak by moving the harp slightly away from the lips, with the same tongue position the note thins out and the bend disappears.
B. Play an unbent 3D and allow a leak, the note thins out but still sounds.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 5:42 AM
Yes .. reaching in and grabbing the reed. I was actually going to describe it like that. Or something similar to it.
But i think if you can A)Get a real good seal via embouchure. B)Use the backpressure, but without bending C)Use the Yawn technique. D)Ajust your throat to the tone of the note as if your singing it.
That's how you get a boost in Tone and This will give you more headroom as far as volume.
But i think you can also do this Very quietly.
I know im just saying the same things i already said .... but I'm just trying to sum it up. I also realise this is not the point because your looking for volume.
But i feel the backpressure allows the reed to sound more aswell. Ide like to see this brought to the other side (main forum) now that we have our opinions out there. Just like we have figured these things out, but a new player would have no clue what we are talking about. Maybe those who have been playing much longer have some interesting discoveries aswell
Im REALLY interested to here what a real pro has to say. ----------
Yes, it would be good. The difficulty is that these discussions tend to descend into people's pet physics theories, which I think are fruitless, some of which are wrong. We'd need to keep it track around what a person has to do practically to measurably improve their tone/volume/efficiency. With emphasis on the 'measurable'.
The merit in us, as near-beginners, discussing it is that we are closer to the start and open to exploring and making discoveries. And we can see it from our point of view. The downside is that we probably don't have 'it'.
I wonder if Winslow might contribute. The rule would have to be: no theorising, just demos of results. So if a pro could demo that they have e.g. a 30dB dynamic range, then we could quiz him about how to do it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 10:58 AM
Thats very true ... i get bored with all that bullshit talk. Lol. It does me no good and its boring.
I think you pretty clearly know how to handle it and phrase it. I say go for it. I have hopes that it will work as planned. It probably will get off track a few times,but aslong as you keep it pretty strict it may work.
Sound samples are a great idea as proof of what one is claiming. I just wonder how many people, aware of it or not, will fudge the sound to prove their point.
Ok, joining MTG in recording myself. Gonna try to embed from dropbox here. Hope it works!!
EDIT: It works for me!! MTG, does this recording help answer your OP question? To my ear, my "normal" level of playing is significantly lower than my "loud" playing, and a bit louder than my "soft" playing. I think, if I had a better set up harp, I could go a lot softer than I could on that particular harp, and the airtightness/backpressure thing would be what allowed me to do that... ----------
Hmm, didn't see your other post before I made my recording. Would like to try that resonant test on the 4 draw. For what it's worth, that is one of the examples Chris M. would use during teaching. He would get me to play that 4d, and then change the shape of my mouth and throat to hear the audible change in timbre/tone/volume. What makes all of this hard is that many of the same mechanics that will help you get louder also change the tone and timbre. Better tone is potentially confused with increased volume because the tone is clearer. So, sometimes, it's hard to pick apart what your ear is really hearing -- real increase in volume, or a perceived increase that is actually do to better clarity of tone. It would be best to do all this in a controlled environment with a real SPL meter set at a fixed difference, and then cycle several player through on the same instrument (wiped down before uses, of course!!). ----------
Nice one. Yes, it's a far from a perfect comparison. If we were all in the same room we could clear this up in a trice.
Did you use your hands, I tried playing along with the 'normal volume' section and could only get something similar with hands. If so, that's interesting, but for a different thread. Prepare to be interrogated for the public good :)
Definitely go for the 4D challenge, but strictly no hands to change timbre!
Here are your traces, linear and dB. The areas are:
1. Speaking 2. Normal playing 3. Soft 3. Loud
Looks to me like about 20dB between soft and loud. There may be artefacts because of using a phone, there may be compression automatically applied. But it's interesting.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 11:03 AM
Back pressure? I'll admit I have no idea what that means. I'm also wondering what you're trying to achieve here. Seems like you're searching for some aspects of technique which will boost volume, and demonstrate its a real thing rather than a perception. Or maybe posing the question of whether some people play louder/have a wider range than others, and then if that is found to be the case, investigate why that is. is that about right?
That's interesting to see the traces. I use "wavepad" to record, which I believe does not apply auto gain correction. It allows me to set a single mic sensitivity to keep the sound below the clipping threshold (which I set while playing a loud note). The file is an uncompressed 8-bit WAV, so there should be no artifacts from lossy file compression like with Mp3's... So, I'd believe a ~20db dynamic range there. Like I said, I know I could play even quieter on a better set up harp, but opted to use a pretty stock Special 20 for this.
Yes, I use(d) my hands, which is now basically just part of my playing style. I could certainly try again without them. The way I hold the harp is like a megaphone with the harp right in the middle of it. Not many people hold it this way. I learned it from Dan Kaplan. Here's what I'm talking about:
By 'backpressure' kHz means the resistance to the airflow, from whatever combination of causes. The perception that you've got something to draw or push against. He observes that you can change it by e.g. dropping the draw, yawning, all that.
What are we asking? People regularly say that as they got better, their tone and resonance and sound get louder and better. Just right here (and on the MF) Isaac, Tuckster and Rogonzab have said it.
So the questions are: How much? What are the limits? How do you go about doing it? And if you think you get a 'huge' increase in efficiency/response/volume please post so we can see what that means.
It's not intended as an academic question, I want to know what to aim for. And I think other beginners might want to know that too.
Maybe the answer will be: buy a Joe Spiers Stage 1.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 3:39 PM
Thanks Isaac. Tuckster has stated that pros use hands to get a bigger sound. In that case we shouldn't discount hands.
True to my word, I'm not going to write any physics about acoustic megaphones or chambers. Just to say, it's plausible. Myself, using hands changes the timbre in pleasing ways, and I measure a slight increase in volume, but not much. Mostly I think of cupping as closing down the sound, or using it to direct into a vocal mic.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 3:42 PM
If it's a question of perception, I perceive some harps are better than others in this regard. I play a lot of harps. So I think I may be more attuned to their differences than many, but I also have no faith in that idea because I know how much my own perception varies. I can cite numerous examples but I'm sure I don't need to...it's subjective, right? So I think you are attempting to be objective about something which is usually presented from a position of subjective experience. "I think my tone and volume improved as I became a better player". For a start...duh! And secondly...we know there are a bunch of things involved. 'Back pressure' is not useful as a concept to me but if it has meaning to someone, by all means use whatever visualisation that works. I see people say I play soft of I play hard...but that's not what you mean I gather. I think you're looking for I play soft and the harp plays loud. And I don't know how you will establish that by listening to recordings. You may capture a range of volume but the effort of volume of air used is still just a perception I think.
Ok bee. Fair enough. Let me try to explain what i mean. How does a note bend. I mean physically (sorry MTG im not trying to start a physics discussion)
The note bends because you add like a back pressure. I mean to really bare down on a 2" you add as much backpressure as you can. But you use your tongue to do this. (I know people say they can bend with their throat or whatever, I'm just trying to prove a point)
I assert that you can put a similar backpressure, but instead of directing it in a direction that bends the note, you use the bottom of your throat(or perhaps it comes from the diaphragm, I'm not sure) to direct it straight back. Therefore getting an extra force to be applied to the reed to get it to vibrate (with more motion?) and make it sound louder than it could by just sucking air harder.
Infact with the backpressure i feel i use about half as much air as i would by sucking at 100% on its own. I suck harder but the air doesnt increase as much as just the sucking is used to apply the pressure. Idk if this makes sense or if i just made it worse, but there it is.
You probably do this and just dont realise it. (Or maybe I'm just fill of shit. Idk. But it seems to be true by what I've experienced. ) ----------
Superbee - people don't just say their tone/volume increases, they say it hugely increases. And specifically they say they use resonance somehow to hugely increase the sound. So yes, I'm trying to be a bit objective about it. Not for academic reasons in this case, but because I want a huge dynamic range and resonance, if it's available. Don't know if I want to actually play louder, but if resonance is available, I think that would be enjoyable to play with.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 16, 2016 12:24 AM
Well there are obviously TONS of little techniques and honed skills at play in a pros volume/tone increase. But i wonder if it's as great an increase (internally without the use of hands and other things.) As you think? It could be. Im not sure. I know i get a good little increase with just the backpressure and yawn, but im no pro. (Just Incase You Werent Aware .. Lol)
But its not massive. I dont think. Its actually kind of hard to tell. Its hard to know what my volume was like when i started. Even when i try to just suck( so i can A/B sucking with lips pushed out vs backpressure yawn with good embouchure) its hard to not add something to the sucking. I have to consentrate to play with no tone shaping.
Its like trying to play a flat"broken" 2 draw like you would when you were a beginner. It's hard because it's automatic muscle memory.
OK, but at some level if people claim a huge increase in tone/volume/efficiency - either it can be demonstrated or it can't. If you asked a trained singer to do demonstrate this kind of thing, they could.
If it turns out the increase isn't in fact huge, that's ok. It's not a criticism. It's all relative. In fact I'd be pleased, as it means I'm not lacking that aspect at least.
Plenty of other areas left to lack in!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 16, 2016 10:50 AM
