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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Installed my first custom comb
Installed my first custom comb
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Tiggertoo1962
65 posts
Mar 31, 2016
11:24 AM
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Nice one, Lanthus. Happiness is a well playing harp ;).
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the postage to Sweden? I'm in Germany, so I reckon it'd be around the same. I'm thinking about maybe ordering a couple of custom combs to keep the relative postage price down.
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Killa_Hertz
898 posts
Mar 31, 2016
12:12 PM
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Congrats on the nice harp. Feels great doesnt it? That's why they are so addictive. None of your other harps will feel the same now ...lol.
Most people think the comb upgrade is an asthetic thing. Not even close. Looks are a plus, but i really doubt many people would spend money like that on looks alone.
Wow only 2 months. That harp must feel like gold. Andrews Combs are very nice. I am curious about the thicker comb. I do feel like the normal ones i have are a tad bit thin. I wanted to try one of his thicker combs on a manji and see how it stacked up.
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"THE BLUES IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE! "
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Tiggertoo1962
66 posts
Mar 31, 2016
2:25 PM
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Thanks Lanthus. Hadn't realised Andrew's shipping to Europe was so reasonable. Looks like time I was getting an order in ;)
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Harmlessonica
191 posts
Apr 01, 2016
4:01 AM
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Hi Lanthus, and welcome.
That's a suitably arty photo for a classy looking harp.
The Golden Melody was one of my first harmonicas - I loved the shape but hated the exposed reedplates. I ended up giving mine away... shame I didn't know about Andrew's combs back then.
I can also vouch for him, though, as I later ordered a comb for my Thunderbird. Very reasonable cost to the UK.
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Tiggertoo1962
70 posts
Apr 04, 2016
11:41 AM
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Well that's my order placed and my gear on the way, thanks to Lanthus supplying the info on shipping prices. If I'd known it was so cheap, I'd have done something about it before this.
Decided to order an MS comb to try it out, since I have three BH MS sitting there not getting used, and resale value of these harps is not good. If it makes me go "WOW!" then I'll have three well usable harps for just an extra 75 Canadian bucks, so it's worth a try.
Ordered a SP20 comb too, just because. I love the way these harps play OOTB anyway just with a little gapping, but if I can get them playing even better for a reasonable investment, then why not?
Third one is a Marine Band comb, along with the necessaries for doing a "nails to screws" conversion. What really sold me on that one is the fact that I have a pre-MS Blues Harp, so I figured either my MBD or X-over can have the custom comb, and I'll do the conversion on the BH and give it the spare comb.
Lanthus - think you could let me know how long it took for your order to get to Sweden after it was sent? I'm going to be like a kid waiting for Santa Claus til it gets here...
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Bruce S
41 posts
Apr 11, 2016
1:21 AM
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Andrew's combs are great- I have 7 of them in Marine Bands and MB Deluxes and can wholeheartedly recommend them.
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SuperBee
3607 posts
Apr 13, 2016
3:39 PM
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Tt62...the thing about AZ sp20 combs...they are not recessed combs, like Tom's. They are solid combs and turn your sp20 into a sandwich like a marine band.
The only drag about this in my view, is that the covers are not designed for this assembly method. There is no groove in the reed plates to catch the cover, and the result is a bit more like a Hyundai than a Toyota...it works but the pieces don't all fit together like they should.
Oh and the pre-ms blues harp...some are worth the trouble, some are more trouble than they're worth. If you can get some marine band covers for it, it may sound better. But generally if the draw reed plate has 2 nails along the back, I don't bother with them. If it has 3, like a modern marine band (or like the blow plate) they can be worth your time.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 13, 2016 3:43 PM
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Tiggertoo1962
94 posts
Apr 14, 2016
9:03 AM
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A very timely post, Bee, as I've now had the chance to try my combs out in various combinations, and wanted to share my thoughts.
Firstly, thanks for the info on the SP20 combs. I was actually already aware of this. I just decided to order one since I'd read a couple of reports from people who liked the results.
So first up, the MS comb. Let me say in advance, I had already flat sanded all my stock MS combs and draw plates, and had done some rough gapping. Before I spent too much time on gapping them, I had already bought SP20s in the same keys, which were far better OOTB and easier to gap, so the MS harps had kind of taken a back seat in the meantime. What I had hoped, was that the custom comb would show me some kind of improvement in the way the harps played, in which case I would fit it on all of them one after the other, gap them properly, and eventually buy custom combs for them all. Didn't turn out that way, I'm afraid to say. I think what I found out, is that I've made a damned good job of flat sanding the stock combs, and I need to spend a lot more time gapping the MS harps if I want them to play better. Not disappointed that I bought the comb though, since contrary to expectations, I quite like the "black sandwich" look as opposed to the stock comb. Once I have the harps playing better, I'll just put the comb on whichever one I tend to play more.
Next one was the MB comb, which I decided to try firstly on my old, original, non-MS Blues Harp - which, incidentally, is one of the "3 nails top, 2 nails bottom" models (thanks for the tip, Bee). Not having previously done any more to that harp than pull the covers off to try and straighten a bent one and drill them out for screws, I was expecting a noticable difference after drilling and tapping the reed plates, flat sanding the draw plate, and fitting the custom comb. Well I wasn't disappointed. It did make a difference, but not so much as to make me leave the custom comb on this harp. It has a nice, warm tone, and with a bit of gapping it'll no doubt play better, but it doesn't have much in the way of volume - is that why you said you wouldn't spend much time and effort on those harps, Bee, or was there another reason? Anyway, I'll flat sand the stock comb on that one, and probably try my Crossover or MBD covers on it at some point, but that's something for another day when I'm down the rabbot hole looking for something to do...
Last up, the SP20 comb. As SuperBee said, this turns the SP20 into a sandwich harp without the reed plate channels, but since some others on the forum had reported a "wow!" effect with them, I had nothing to lose but a few Canadian dollars... and not really many of them either, to be honest. I flat sanded the draw plates on my G, C, and D SP20s, and tried the comb on them one after the other. They all sit beautifully flat on the comb but, as expected, the cover plates don't exactly make the best seal on the reed plates. The harps don't play any worse than they do with the stock combs, but I don't find they play any better either. Chances are I've just had loads of luck with my stock SP20 combs, and haven't had any duff ones. I had intended to ask if anyone had used the AZ SP20 comb and come up with a solution for a better cover to reed plate seal, but after having a look at the comb, I've come up with another idea... I've put it on my Crossover. The holes at the back of the comb line up perfectly with the reed plate holes, so the reed plates sit nicely on the comb with a few small exceptions. The comb is a little short lengthways, so the reed plates stick over about 1mm at either side, which doesn't bother me in the slightest - the comb is a little wider (front to back) than the MB comb, ditto - only the front cover plate holes can be used without modification, but should I really want to use all four screws, I just need to drill two more holes in the comb... meantime my Crossover thinks it's a Manji.
Well that's enough writing for now, as I have to head out for my evening classes. If anyone has any questions, or any feedback/suggestions to share, I'll read all about it sometine in the next couple of days. I finally have the weekend off, but part of that has been put aside for the family. I'm quite sure I'll manage to squeeze in a little bit of forum time though.
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One of the last of a dying breed.
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Killa_Hertz
1273 posts
May 03, 2016
5:29 PM
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My first harp, i did exactly the same thing. Its still one of my best harps.
However i did alot of reedwork aswell.
But all of my converted MBs have only two front screws. Another thing you can do is drill them center instead. But i prefer front like u did.
Also instead of stealing screws out if other harps. Because 1) The crossover screws strip out easy, they suck. 2)if you do a few, you ll run out of screws eventually. Rockin Rons sells sex screws. They work great. I think they are $8 for 4. And they are solid.
Beautiful Harp Man. How much better does it play? I know it's not your first, but im always amazed at how a good comb can enhance all the work you ve done to a harp.
I just put my first Corian Comb on a Manji. I had previously done a bunch of work to this harp which made it play pretty good. But when i put the comb on it just brought it all together. The Manji stock comb Is just awful. Even if i get them super flat they just still suck.
This Corian manji is killer.
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Tiggertoo1962
108 posts
May 04, 2016
9:38 AM
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Nice job, Lanthus. Do you have a Crossover or MBD in the same key to do a direct comparison on the harps?
OT - I had been going to buy two MB Classics and do the same thing, but I spotted a couple of Suzuki Hammonds and a Harpmaster in ebay for the price of two MBs so went down that road instead. Not yet sure if that was the right decision, but that'll be dealt with in another thread. Think I'll have to leave the MBs for a while, as I'm already struggling to justify buying 20 harps in 6 months - unless someone out there lives in Germany and wants to take a few Seydel Blues Sessions off my hands...
By the way, if I want to post someting a bit longer, I always write it in, e.g., a Word document and save it periodically, in case either my computer crashes, or the infamous captcha gets me. If you've been writing a post for any more than a few minutes (5 or so, not really sure) it automatically tells you you've entered the wrong code...
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One of the last of a dying breed.
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SuperBee
3688 posts
May 04, 2016
3:43 PM
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Good work.
I noticed the comments about the crossover cover bolts.
I agree they are easy to strip. They don't strip though if the harps are assembled carefully and the bolts are not over tightened. I've seen a lot of them stripped and the slots rounded out.
When assembling reedplates on combs, some folk use a lot of torque, I guess they are thinking they need to be 'tight', but this actually is likely to distort the plates and make them less airtight. Brass is very soft and bends easily.
I'm just making this statement as a general observation, not pointed at your work Lanthus.
Your harps appear great and from your reports I'd say you have got it figured out.
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Killa_Hertz
1279 posts
May 04, 2016
8:04 PM
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I have yet to try one of his thicker combs. I want to try one on a manji. But i agree they have a very Dark Tone.
Besides that you take some killer pictures bro. Seriously.
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SuperBee
3689 posts
May 05, 2016
2:44 AM
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I have moaned here a few times about my gold, valved Promasters. I got an awesome deal on them, so I'm not too dirty but I found them basically unplayable and it tainted my view of Suzuki...but that's not the point...the point is that I put an AZ comb on one and apart from greatly improved playability I noticed it looks a bunch thicker than the factory comb it replaced...
But then I was sent a promaster to repair, and that factory comb was the same height as the custom comb...so I dunno if the gold Promaster has a thinner comb than the standard, or if contemporary promasters have thicker combs than early examples...mine are so old the reedplates are not threaded, but held on with nuts.
Anyway, I got 2 more combs so I can convert a couple more but been so busy with other people's stuff and amp repairs, I haven't got to it yet...
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SuperBee
3690 posts
May 05, 2016
3:08 AM
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Oh, Tiggertoo, you asked me about the preMS blues harps.
The later production harps have the 3 blow side, 2 draw side nails. This is probably true of MB too.
Sorry, this could be confusing...ill try to be clear
When first introduced in, I think, 1968, the blues harp was a marine band with different covers and they both had 7 nails in both draw and blow plates, just as the nailed marine band does today. Sometime in the 1980s they started putting only 6 nails in the draw plate. I don't know why, and it's not causative, but this correlates to the period of worst quality in marine band and blues harp. So, it's commonly accepted wisdom among harp restorers that these are not worth the trouble. No matter how much effort you put into it, the sows ear never quite becomes silk...
There may be exceptional harps but on the whole it's not worth looking for them.
I have one of these blues harps which mp built for me on a corian comb. It's a much better harp with marine band covers, but it's just not great.
To continue the story...in the mid 90s hohner decided to change to automated production and introduced the modular system (MS) harps...the special 20, marine band, blues harp, pro harp all became MS..there was an outcry and they quickly-ish back-pedalled on the marine band and sp20...the big river is pretty much the MS marine band except plastic sandwich comb...but look at the covers on blues harp and big river and then pre ms blues harp and marine band and you'll see the correlation. The pro harp used to be a sp20 with coated covers...now it's a ms sp20 with coated covers..
Incidentally, the current ms harps are a much better harp than those old mid 90s harps.
I still have my first sp20 which is an ms unit...it's very ordinary bit of stuff but I keep it out of sentiment. It's the main reason I avoided sp20 for so long; I didn't realise they had changed until about 2010. I thought they were still ms.
Anyway...those hohners from late 80s/early 90s are reputedly hard to turn into good harps so I personally don't bother with them..,I have quite a few too...I do harvest reeds from them.
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Killa_Hertz
1281 posts
May 05, 2016
3:30 AM
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Is funny you bring up blues harps. I have a couple. All in high keys, so it's hard to get a good read, but. .....
I think they are ok. I want to try one in a lower key, like A, with a custom comb. I think If i put as much work into it as i do some of my other harps, it would be a fine player. Marine bands are sometimes too small. The blues harp fits the bill for a bigger brass reed harp.
Curious to try it.
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SuperBee
3691 posts
May 05, 2016
3:55 AM
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I have an ms blues harp with bamboo comb...Bb harp, and I like it a lot. Can't recall exactly why I stopped using it. I also had one in F which was good, and a C and several in A all of which were pretty good. Until I started gigging (mid 2010) they were my steady harp...I decided to Change to crossovers largely because of the big rep they were getting but I wasn't prepared to pay $92 Australian for them when I could get them from Sandiego for $60 each...catch was the postage so I imported 4 plus a tbird, and got this all delivered for the price of 4 local source crossovers. So then I was a committed marine band type of player...but I still think the blues harp is ok. Especially with a custom comb, and actually, the ms harps being so modular makes for a pretty ok self customised harp...any ms plate with your favourite aftermarket comb and a choice of vented or unvented or unvented and coated covers..I do like the size of them too.
I actually have quite a few used ms harps of various types. I'm sure I have enough parts for a set, just need some combs.
I like AZ harps because exchange rate makes them affordable, but the is a local-ish bloke making combs from Australian hardwoods. Maybe I'll give some a whirl.
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MindTheGap
1571 posts
May 05, 2016
6:04 AM
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When I first started this caper, and one of my son's wanted to learn too, he wanted an MS Blues Harp. I expect we gapped it. I tried it the other day after a long silence and I thought it was great.
Do new combs really darken the tone?
This stuff about 'resonators' - short brass tubes that connect the plates. I'm pretty sure they can't resonate, but do they change the sound? The analogy is with the sound post in a violin, but that really does changes the resonances as it transfers vibrations between the top and bottom, both of which are resonating away like mad. In a harmonica though the reed plates are screwed down.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 05, 2016 6:04 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1283 posts
May 05, 2016
6:29 AM
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Im not so sure about resonators. They are said to make a real difference, but I dont have any combs with them. And im not sure i would go out of my way to get them.
MTG some people are of the thought that comb/reed material makes little to no difference in sound/tone. I totally disagree. Each comb has its own characteristics. Andrews combs DO make the harp sound Darker. They sound very nice. Tom @ Bluemoon offers quite a few other materials. Acrylic. Corian, Hogany, Aluminium, Brass, A Few different types of wood. im not sure how I would describe each materials sound and they dont all have the biggest changes. Aluminum sounds Brighter .. the higher notes are crispier i guess. All the others are hard to describe. They all have their own way they resonate. Im not sure resonate is the right word, but ... maybe how they sound because of what frequencies they absorb and how they reflect the others? IDK if that is right or if it makes sense either. But Andrews combs surely have a unique sound to them. Very Nice.
I suggest you try one if you get the chance. Put it on a particularly leaky or troublesome harp. It will do a 180. Im still amazed at what a bit of time and a comb can do to a harp. I put a White Corian Comb on my Manji the other day. And It plays 10x better. I also flat sanded and straighten the draw plate, straightened the blow plate, Shaped the reeds on holes 1-6. The comb isnt a cure all. But wow do they play better.
I put a Hogany on my Bb Marine Band Classic last night. That thing was a Leaky Pig. It was bone stock though. All I had sone previously was gap it. The wood combed harps are usually pretty each to get mostly flat. But the perfectly flat combs are SO much better.
Sorry this is running On and On. But anyhow I highly recommand you try one. Just be careful you may never look at a stock harp the same way. Before you know it all your harps will have custom combs. 8^)>
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Bones53
6 posts
May 05, 2016
10:32 AM
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Just something that popped into my head as I was reading this post and looked at the instructional video on Andrew's site.. Why doesn't the comb come to you already flat sanded? I'm just a beginner and could see how someone might not sand it just right, too much, too little etc. On the instructional video Andrew is telling the person who is demonstrating how easy and fast it is to do I couldn't help but think just send it already done.
Last Edited by Bones53 on May 05, 2016 10:50 AM
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SuperBee
3694 posts
May 05, 2016
11:13 AM
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Not sure but I think you must have misunderstood something. Andrew's combs do come to you already flat sanded. It's the draw reed plate you will need to flat sand to take the off bumps of the rivets which may protrude on the side of the plate that mates to the comb
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Bones53
7 posts
May 06, 2016
3:42 AM
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Thanks guys... This has to be the best forum...i guess now my question is why doesn't the draw reed plate come sanded? Is it because each harp cover is different?
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Killa_Hertz
1293 posts
May 06, 2016
4:18 AM
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No. If you take a harp appart, you will see that the reeds are riveted to the reedplate. The blow reeds are upside down and the rivet is inside the slot of the comb. But the draw reed plate has the reeds on the outside and the rivets rest on the comb. So the underneath of the rivet his the comb. Stock harps notch out a lil space for this. Andrews doesnt, in the intrest of flatness and airtightness. So you have to sand the lil nubs flat so the plate sits flat to the comb.
If it still Doesnt make sense, take appart a harp. Youll see
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 06, 2016 4:18 AM
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Bones53
8 posts
May 06, 2016
4:27 AM
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Thanks Killa.. Now I understand!
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MindTheGap
1576 posts
May 06, 2016
4:28 AM
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Does flat-sanding the draw reed plate have any effect with a plastic recessed comb, SP20 etc?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 06, 2016 4:29 AM
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SuperBee
3695 posts
May 06, 2016
5:25 AM
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I've never bothered to do it because I can't see any predictable likelihood of gain. The rivets don't go near the comb, you'd just have to get lucky about some improvement...you can't really flatten the comb.
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Killa_Hertz
1296 posts
May 06, 2016
9:20 AM
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yea ... i dont think so. But recessed comb harps are already so airtight. Usually. Thats why I have yet to buy a custom recessed comb. Well that and the higher price tag. But .... Im pretty happy with the stock Session Steel Combs and Special 20 Combs.
I am curious about a custom session steel, but im almost scared to try one. Pandora's Box and all that.
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Killa_Hertz
1300 posts
May 07, 2016
5:13 AM
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Glad you finally got into gapping bro.
You ll get even better at it and the response will get even better.
Also there is a more advanced technique called reed shaping (or arching) which will help aswell.
It's a deep rabit hole once you get into it, but it's well worth the result.
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Bobbyboy
6 posts
May 07, 2016
8:00 AM
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My Golden melody played really well straight out of the box too. Today I fitted an anodised aluminium comb to it from Bluemoon harmonica's and its transformed the feel and comfort of this now my favourite instrument.
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Killa_Hertz
1303 posts
May 07, 2016
12:47 PM
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Super bee seems to think they take a bit more time with the crossover. I think he s right because they do seem to be better ootb. But to me is all pointless because it can never be perfect ootb, so it is what it is. The special 20s are usually alot closer than the 1896 in my experience so far. But again ... im just going to open it as soon as i get it and set em where i want em. After you get good at it, it doesnt take as much effort. Now shaping still takes me some time. It can be a pain to get the shape perfect. My skills aren't quite where I'd like them to be in that regard, but with a little time i can make a pretty decent harp, if i don't say so myself.
It does take a little time, but once its done its done. And you don't have to open again unless you get a sticky reed. And that only takes a second.
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SuperBee
3708 posts
May 09, 2016
11:09 PM
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there could be other factors in play, but in general, while the sp20 and rocket combs are the best of the factory-made recessed combs, the solid combs have greater potential.
make sure you havent overtightened the reedplate screws. this will distort the reedplate. flat sanding the reedplates will not bring improved performance on these combs. when assembling, take care the plates are seated correctly and tighten the screws from the middle out to the ends...and do it in stages, gradually taking up the slack, probably 2 stages...
all the rockets ive had here have been great harps. but its possible there is more to it than gapping the reeds. a badly shaped reed wont play well even if the gap at the tip looks good. its really about the gap along the length of the reed in action.
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Killa_Hertz
1323 posts
May 10, 2016
11:01 PM
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Yea ive found ther fit some things and not others. If you want screws for the thicker combs, rons has custom screws 4 for $8.
Your pictures are amazing. Glad you ve gotten a few self made players. Not that hard right? And worth every second you put into them. Alot of mine play better than i do.
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