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Overblows
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SuperBee
3535 posts
Mar 26, 2016
3:47 PM
There's a thread titled 'gapping' which has strayed OT.
The tendency of threads on this page to go OT is starting to bug me...even though I'm a major culprit in participation.
It makes it very hard to go back to things when fragments of conversation on diverse topics are spread across numerous threads...just gets out of hand.
So the topic of overblows...

I'm gonna edit some stuff into this post...
SuperBee
3536 posts
Mar 26, 2016
3:50 PM
Gary62 said:
"... I find the OB's seem to work better on a C harp and the A is harder at least on hole 4. See i watched a video from Ronnie Shellist where he talks about this and i tend to agree with what he says. Most people who OB sound absolutely horrible! Usually off pitch and out of tune. I'll link to it at the bottom here. Maybe you've seen it already? He lays out some stuff a lot of people might not want to hear. But it's the truth and reality of the situation. Maybe that's why Howard Levy is such a genius!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jvTwv3czh4

Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 26, 2016 3:51 PM
SuperBee
3537 posts
Mar 26, 2016
4:38 PM
I tried to get on board with Ronnie but I could never get the time difference sorted...sessions were like 2 and 3 am for me and even if I got up for it I would not take it in at that time...but I know enough about him to respect what he has to say.
Overblows...well, these days it seems lots of people treat it as part of the game and they learn to do it straight off the bat...I mean right from the start...whereas for me, even blow bends were something I didn't bother with until I'd been at the harp for years...
But I was a very slow learner. I didn't have a learning plan, I just carried a harp and made sounds with it when I was on my own. I did that for years. That's a very slow way to learn to play.
So I think...it depends what you are trying to do.
Even after I started to learn a bit and could play some songs, I just thought maybe I'd get a role as a sideman in a band and be playing harp fills and the occasional solo. Which is pretty much what happened...
So playing in that band was the focus of my playing...overblows were hardly relevant. But because I was playing in a band I was much more focused on the idea of being a player and so I started studying to improve my game...
Straight away, I could tell overblows were low down my list of priorities.
Timing was important, tone was important, expression was important, contributing to the song in a positive way was important.
Overblows can be part of that, but if you have to derail your overall musical advancement just to focus on a technique which the overwhelming majority of players have got along without for most of the history of the instrument...I think that's not really productive.
If you can learn it quickly and incorporate it into your game, cool. Why not? Some people seem to be able to do that.
If it's just something you want to do and that's why you're playing...for your own satisfaction...go for it.
In short, do what thou wilt.
Why do I even care what someone else does?
Only because I think maybe there could be a thing where people feel they really need to be overblowing and they might feel frustrated and get hung up on it...and I think that's unnecessary.
I don't care what technique someone has or doesn't have. If I am listening to your playing and it sounds good...if you have rhythm, tone, harmony...I'm gonna like it. Sure if you have dazzlement with note choices and amazing technique I'll be shaking my head...but is it really all about your ego?
There's been, and still is, a lot of ego in my playing and I'm not lying if I say it's one of the main things holding me back..but it's hard to explain and it's hard to really understand...
I think there's a danger the focus on overblows for some players can stray into this ego-zone...but not for everyone...
Enough of the preacher though...
6ob...I learned to play it...and I use it a little. It tends to be out of tune, but I think it's close enough to get away with as a passing tone.
Paul Oscher used to use it, and was perhaps the pioneer of regularly using it in a 'traditional' blues context, but I recently read him saying he has gone off it and now is more likely to use 3'.
That does make sense to me...often I think that the context where I want to use the 6ob is just as well served by making the jump to the low octave.
But I still use the 6 as a way to link the top and bottom and I guess that's just an indication of where my understanding of the harp and the blues has come to, and maybe that will change. I'm so keen on 1st position and trying to use the top of the harp at the moment...but when I play with others I rarely go there, because it really needs to have the band doing something where that works.
Anyway...I've rambled on and it's a sunny day so I am gonna go do something else...
Killa_Hertz
833 posts
Mar 26, 2016
5:48 PM
You got a point BEE. And I guess it all goes back to MTGs point about being aware of those who read yet dont comment. I just feel like there s really only a handful of us on Beginner Thread that actually talk about anything. So just let the convos go as they must. Chips fall where they may. Things come out that way that may never if you break them up.

See already we re off topic. Lol.

Sorry.

But if it bugs people we can make it a point to keep things as they are elsewhere. Keep things true to OP.

Whatever floats your boat bro.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Gary 62
124 posts
Mar 26, 2016
7:44 PM
SuperBee: That's a great post Bee. I was/am getting hung up on OB's and i felt what Ronnie had to say in the video really applied to me. I was practicing OB's a lot and i mean a lot. I am playing just for me so it's not so important. However listening to the scratchy and out of tune notes that i was playing i asked Ronnie's question to myself "would i like to listen to that?" The answer would be a resounding no and as he says in the video a lot of times it's like nails on a chalkboard.

So that's the downside. The upside is man that #4 OB is so useful in things like Adam's first position boogie woogie video. You can't do it without that.

I was trying to think about players that are playing now who don't OB. Don't think Jerry Portnoy does. What about Kim Wilson? I thought i read somewhere he doesn't either. Sugar Blue? I'm not sure but again i'm thinking i read he doesn't.
SuperBee
3540 posts
Mar 26, 2016
11:03 PM
yeah for sure that 4OB is the 8' blowbend. that is what is cool about 1st position

i only learned to do it because someone asked me to set up a harp for them to OB. i couldnt even OB myself...how am i gonna set up a harp to OB.
so i can do it well enough now to assess the harp but i cant deal with them in playing. im sure i could if i put the time in but it always brings me to a place where i think id be better off practicing a different instrument
when i was taking lessons from Jimi Lee, he was starting to work on playing half-valved harps and that was pretty interesting. i think he is playing those a lot now. and he also plays the country-tuning harps. CT gives you the note which is otherwise 5OB...if you valved that chamber you could blow bend it for the otherwise 4 OB...and either OB6 or valve 7...or tune 7 draw flat and blow bend 7 for the normal 7 draw...

as weird as all that sounds...it seems to me it would be easier than practicing all those OBs... but...i dont know much about the valving, what its lke to play. i had some valved suzukis and they were really bad...
MindTheGap
1341 posts
Mar 27, 2016
12:11 AM
Good post. I think it's normal that a beginner would want to try out all these technqiues, and OBs are a part of Adam's videos.

It's also got a positive health benefit, in that exploring OBs naturally leads you to experiment with gapping. Which is a useful skill to have in making your harps work better for non-OB playing too.

But it's a very good point that once you have acquired a technique, you should keep a musical ear out to assess whether it's any use to you, and any good.

Myself, I learnt OB as part of blow bending. And I used to use the 6OB a lot initially. I think it sounds pretty good actually. It may be subjective but to my ears it's a good-sounding note, with a nice edge and timbre to it. Even if the pitch isn't played spot on - well it's not alone there (think 2'', 4' 5'). Contrast the 3'' which is not a naturally good sounding note IMO.

But now I hardly use 6OB at all. For some of reasons SuperBee mentioned: timing, tone, expression and contributing to the song are all more important to me than note choices.

Also I didn't like that it was easier to get on some harps and not others. Not a good reason to avoid it, but just saying what I like/dislike personally. It seemed to be that chasing the perfect OB would result in spending a lot of time fussing about with harps and getting all hung up on that. Or spending lots of money for someone else to do it. Not suggesting anyone shouldn't do that, but I didn't want to.

I already have spent a lot of time fussing about with the electric-amp'd side of things. Out of necessity.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 27, 2016 12:24 AM
MindTheGap
1342 posts
Mar 27, 2016
12:18 AM
On the other subject of staying on topic, we can nudge in that direction if you like.

As to readers vs posters, if you do use on the of the sharing apps/websites to post samples and photos, then you can see how many times the things are played/viewed. Which indicates that there are very many more readers than writers. In short, we have an audience :)
Truth2012
32 posts
Mar 27, 2016
12:56 AM
I Agree with you there about MTG.
You do need to make sure the overblow is going to of any use to you.
Putting it in for the sake of it can sound out of place, not good.

I only use the 6ob for 1 song and that's only because I have too!
May be more useful as I learn to play more songs, but at this present time I doubt I would choose to use one out of natural selection.
Killa_Hertz
836 posts
Mar 27, 2016
7:27 AM
MTG. ... how do you see how many times something was viewed. Other forums have this built in. And sometimes you will get hundreds of views and only 2or3 posts so i know what you say is true. But im interested to find out here what the numbers look like.

As far as my comment about most people not sounding good on OBs, I was referring to the people who really overuse them and look for ways to force them in. People who use them occasionally as passing notes and things of that nature fall into a different catagory, i feel. Idk. What do i know anyways.

The point is... players who have been playing for a shorter period of time are probably better suited working on other things. But as BEE says ... i don't care what technique someone wants to learn. More power to you. I just am trying to give good advice. Well the best advice I can ... weather its good or not, im not so sure. Lol.

However i gap my harps pretty tight. So everytime i have tried Overblows they just pop right in. But they sound awful. Getting the overblow isn't the hard part (to me anyways) its getting the tone to sound useable. But again i haven't spent much time trying.


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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 27, 2016 7:28 AM
Gary 62
125 posts
Mar 27, 2016
8:52 AM
Interesting point from MTG about OB's being harder to get on some harps. I find #6 much easier and has a better tone on an A harp more than a C. On the other hand i can grab the #4 OB dead easy on a C harp but on an A it has to be dragged out of the harp more. I can gap the harp so the OB os easy but then the normal blow note is too long in responding which is no good. You know what? I was wondering if i damaged the #4 blow reed when i was adjusting it. I put a feeler guage in to center it in the slot after embossing and the one i used was a tad too thick and i put a little twist in the reed. I had to straighten it out with tiny jewelers tweezers. Anyway the normal note is fine and the OB is obtainable, but harder to get. Now i don't know whether it was always a hard OB because it's a lower key harp or because the reed has something wrong with it. Don't think it's the latter as playing normally it's fine it's just when adjusted for a good compromise between the normal note and the OB the OB is more difficult to get.
MindTheGap
1346 posts
Mar 27, 2016
11:29 PM
Re seeing the no. of views: it's in the desktop browser version of box, there's a number next to the file. I don't think it's necessarily in the mobile version.

Re OBs. Yes, I agree that shoe-horning lots of OBs in can sound laboured to my ears. But I do like the sound of the 6OB, even played by beginners. I think it's a good note. Like when I first found the 2'' full step bend, it's a good note too. IMO you don't have to be a maestro to make it sound good.
Killa_Hertz
843 posts
Mar 28, 2016
4:18 AM
@MTG. Re:views ... ahh i thought you meant views of the thread itself. But that's interesting none the less.

6OB .. i agree. And it's the most useful i imagine. It's no secret i know jack about scales and things of that nature. But i have often found that missing 6OB note a pain when attempting to play licks i use in the lower, in the middle octave.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."


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