I ask this because recently i've been way into working on scales to improve technique and i noticed that practicing on my 'A' harp is so much easier as regards the bending and intonation of the bends. When i go to a 'C' harp it becomes much harder to hold those bends around the flat 3rd in #3 on pitch. It seems much easier for those notes to want to squirm out of tune. Anyone else notice this? So it seems to me working on the higher pitch harps might be better for technique building. My thought line being that if you can do it on the more difficult harps then it should be easy on the low pitch ones.
Yes they definitely seem to need a bit more focus on control to hold steady as you go up, but I don't know that it's necessarily more beneficial generally to practice on the higher key. I think you probably just have to practice both. With hohner harps there is a real difference between a D Harp and a C harp. Hohner uses two templates for reed length and width. From C down, all the harps have the same length and width reeds/slots. a 4 slot reed from a C harp will fit the 4 slot of a G harp. And lower...a four slot from a C harp will physically fit the 4 slot of a Low D. But from Db to HiG, there is a different template. The 4 slot reed from a D harp is the same length and width as the 6 slot of a C harp. Practically this means that your 4 draw bend on a D harp is somewhat different to the 4 draw on a C harp for reasons of reed dimensions. But also, as observed, it's different between keys even when the reeds are same length and width. I think the difference is greater between C and D than between A and C. Ah, but what does it mean for practice? I don't think that playing harp is quite like weightlifting, where 'harder/more difficult' equals greater stimulus to change. I'm actually not even sure weightlifting works totally like that...I mean muscles respond to overload but it needs to be an appropriate overload that allows you to retain good form...and then you need to recover.. Training is specific...if you learn to bend well on a C harp, it doesn't mean you will be finding it easier on an A harp...you may find some aspects easier though. I seem to be rambling and that's because I'm working it out as I go...I've actually been here and thought about it a bit but never tried to relate my thoughts.., There's a certain physical aspect to playing the harp..and practice on the higher harps will develop some aspects of that which will apply to your playing across the range. The lower harps have their own demands though, and practice with those will also contribute to how you cope with the higher harps. So you just have to play them all...no, you have to play the ones you want to play. If you just practice on a C harp, you'll get good at C harp. I practised on A for 12 months and I was finding C quite challenging by then. But I was pretty good at A. The difference between keys is more significant than difference between brands/ models I think. Then there are the Low range harps... The reason G to F is 'standard' became clear to me when I bought a Low F and found I could not play the low bends. I'm just at a point with Low F now, where I can use it to play some songs and feel good about the draw bends. I have a Low Eb which I have done a lot of work on to ensure it is as easy to play as I know to make it, and I am at last getting to the 1 draw bend...it's not the harp...I just work on the harp as a way of keeping myself interested in learning to play it...it's actually about getting my vocal tract in the right shape..I've been at it sporadically for a couple years...I'm sure if I focussed there'd be more progress. A LoEb is pretty Lo..and frankly I don't have much application for it but it is kinda nice to play rhythms and splits on... Oh yeah anyway...yes, there's a benefit to playing bends on your C but also D and also A. No single key is gonna be the one that does it all...
I know exactly what you mean Gary and when I started I tied myself in knots over this, because no one stated it very clearly.
I think SuperBee is right, you have to practice on all of them. Personally, I do find that if I practice 3D bends on the high keys, then the low keys seem easier so I definitely do that.
But if I only play on the high keys, then the lower bends on a G-harp can start to feel a bit tricky.
So I think it's specific. If I want to work on my 3 draw bends, it's good to practice on an F-harp, then a C-harp feels more stable, and Bb and A feel super-stable.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 14, 2016 3:37 PM
Thanks guys. You know SuperBee that is great info about slot and reed lengths. I never knew any of that and it's definitely food for thought.
I don't know how best to describe the feeling but bending say the bends in #3 on a 'C' harp they feel tighter or more closely spaced together. I know that's nonsense because they're all a half step away from each other. But that's the way it feels. I also notice i can hold the flat 3rd nicely and keep it real steady on the 'A' whereas on the 'C' it tends to want to wander if i'm not careful.
I think you're right you need to practice on them all. I tend to play maybe a whole week on one harp sometimes because i'm enjoying it but then when i switch to the other i go "hmmm! that feels a bit weird!" but then i soon adjust to it.
I just notice that 'C' definitely feels harder to get the bends perfectly in tune and to hold them there.
This brings to mind one of Adam's YT videos where he uses a 'D' harp and he has a bit of trouble with the intonation onthe #10 bends. And he said something like yeah it's pretty difficult up there with the higher pitched harps. That brings to mind the #10 bends. Same thing i find i can get the three notes distinctly and clearly on the 'A' but sometimes the 'C' again wants to slip away.
Part of me wishes i could play only one harp and have it do it all. Trouble is to pull that off you have to be phenomenal with overblows and overdraws and while i can play them i'm certainly not in that league where i could do that. I also liked Jason in his overblow video where he mentions this and talks about a guy called Carlos who plays only one harp for everything. He then said that he likes having all the different keys available because all harps have different feels and sweet spots.
Tinus from overblow.com can do it all on one harp as well. He has this video where he go's through the whole 12 keys playing the major scale of the key and then a major seventh arpeggio. All really in tune and sounding beautiful. Amazing.
The one-harp-for-all idea is great, but even if we could do it we'd miss out on some of the great stuff that is available by using a diatonic in 1st, 2nd, 3rd position etc. Two-holes shakes, just for one instance.
I know MBH is sort of defined by using overblows but myself I don't see it as the end goal at all. Really I need to form another site 'OFBH'.
Writing honestly, I have heard some fully chromatic-on-diatonic playing that leaves me in awe and admiration of the technique, but if I played it to my non-harping family they'd say, 'What on earth is that?' and not in a good way :)
And I know what you mean about the 3D bends. That's why I go on and on and on about it. The instruction materials didn't explain it clearly enough IMO. So it's a service to new beginners.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 15, 2016 12:20 AM
Since this is my new 'no apologies and brutally honest' phase...
I make no apologies for repeating that the particular problem I had was that on the higher key harps not only are the 3D bends tighter and less stable, but the whole feel of the 3D becomes more and more different to the surrounding holes. For a while I though it might be my harps and there was a gapping/arcing/sanding solution. But I concluded it's just there, and I have to compsensate with technique.
If someone had just said that, it would have saved at lot of time. But I did learn a fair bit along the way, so not all bad.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 15, 2016 2:46 AM
MTG ... "he particular problem I had was that on the higher key harps not only are the 3D bends tighter and less stable, but the whole feel of the 3D becomes more and more different to the surrounding holes."
I kno i beat this to death before, but i use the chicken shack 2 3' 2 3" 2 lick for this also. It kinda sets the relation in your ear.
As far as the best key i agree that A and Bb are the sweet spot, for me atleast. It's a good idea to use higher keys to challenge yourself, but i feel you can't quite get the same full expression out of higher keys. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I first got an inkling about the higher harps thing when listening to an interview with the harmonica giant Charlie McCoy. He played something on a C-harp that included a 3 bend, and I thought: Man Alive! (or something equivalent) That's just what I get, that odd kind of sound. Up until then I think I'd been listening to instructional examples on A and Bb harps where the notes are more homogenous, as we have observed.
From then I started to feel much better about it, and I made a point of listening out for 3 bends on higher harps, played by great players. There it is! And there!. I feel an obligation to spread the word. Hope that comes across :)
Knowing this is just how has it is, has brought some satisfaction.
But one day, I may hear someone playing a perfect 3D bend on an F-harp and it'll all begin again....dun dun daaaah.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 15, 2016 9:07 AM
MTG: What's OFBH? I need to know! I'm glad i'm not the only one that finds a huge difference in the bending and intonation on the higher harps. At first i thought it was just my imagination. But then switching back and forth between the 'A' and the 'C' the 3rd hole is really where you notice it so much. The best way i can desrcribe it is on the low harp you feel you can grab the note and it feels thicker easier to hold on to. Whereas on the high one's it feels more like you can't sink your teeth right into the note and it feels as if it can get away from you easily if you're not careful.
My next harp will be a 'D'i think, so i'm looking forward to more 'adventures' there!
Errr, Old something-starting-with-F Blues Harmonica.
'Old Fashioned Blues Harmonica'? That'll do.
So, try playing something with 3D bends in on your new D-harp for a while. Like the Chicken Shack that kHz suggests. Then switch back to the C-harp and see if that isn't better.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 15, 2016 11:29 AM
Gary, take heart from this. Here is Lester Davenport - I was researching him because he played the harp on Bo Diddley's Pretty Thing and I am working on that.
Fantastic instrumental, I picked it up from someone's top 40 harp instrumental list. It's on a Bb harp and he hits the sustained 3'' bend repeatedly on the V chord sections (see ~25s, ~55s, and elsewhere). See how it compares with yours. It's an unstable note and I've come to see how it's to be enjoyed as part of that blues harp sound.
The fact that the modern maestros (Jason Ricci et al.) can use those bends with the precision that they do now, IMO is a real triumph of technique over practical limitations.
It doesn't mean though that the end goal is for the notes to be perfect. Your OP was about which harp to practice scales, but you've got to know what you're aiming for. There's going to be imperfection, especially in the higher keys, and there's beauty in the imperfection. Just my point of view, feel free to disagree!
My mistake was to think that I had to replicate the sound of a scale on an A-harp (relatively even) on an F-harp. And if I didn't, it was a 'fail'. I don't think that now.
I understand the interest in the 3 draw bends. It's important especially because 2 of them are very commonly played, and especially in 2nd position over the IV chord (which could be thought of as 1st position), both the 3' and 3" get used consecutively at times. It's true the 3 draw quarter tone bend is also very common in the I chord...I was reading the notes to my transcriptions of a big Walter/Carey bell album and saw the observation that it is rare for Walter to play the 3 without a bend on that record. So that's really a 5th note from that chamber... So anyway where I'm trying to go is to say that with the 3 there is the question of being able to play at least accurately enough to be able to distinguish 4 different notes, and 5 if you count the 1/4tone....that is definitely tougher on the higher harps...and there's the issue of the 'sound' of the bends...the timbre I guess...and I think that's a bit tougher as you ascend also. I'm very fond of madcat's 'nobody knows you', which he plays in 12th on a D harp. It's true the notes are 'funky', but to me it doesn't detract from the performance. I prefer to play it in C on a G harp myself, but I did pick it up by copying and that meant using the D harp.... But that's all by way of segue.. I can cope with a bit of sloppy 3 draw work, within reason, but what really gets my back up.... It's the 4 draw...the 4 draw bent to the floor... Not such a big deal as the 3 because it's rarer to bend the 4 draw...well yes and no...people actually do it all the time...in 2nd pos bluesy/minor stuff it's a flat 5th and it's in a lot of licks, but over the I chord it's a flat 9th and less likely to come up, and over the V it's a major 7th and people quickly learn to leave it out... But in 'the warble' between 4 and 5 draw...a lot of folks love to bend it...and it's my belief (belief!...that's all it is) that this is largely responsible for the death of many many 5 draw reeds. I think this happens...the player goes for the head shake...it's bluesy and harmonica-centric...hey I am playing a bluesy harmonica now...and check this out, I'm gonna bend this down while I still shaking it... And they go deeeep because that's super bluesy harmonicky right? Even though that flat 5th is more like a sharp 4th, it sounds cool...(that's what you got? Ok, sounds cool but I heard it already) and that 4 draw reed is copping it on the chin...but people forget about the 5 draw. It's at the limit too...you'd never bend it that hard by itself, that bent to the floor warble between 4 and 5 is played loud too... I arrived at this idea after observing my best customer in action...every harp he gets, he loses the 5 draw in short order. I asked how long they last and they said...about 2 weeks. 2 weeks. I replaced something like 40 reeds for them last year, most of which were 5 draw but then lots of the harps came back later needing 4 draw. No other reeds in his harps have gone bad since I've been mending them...but the 5 is almost always first to go, then the 4, then the 5 again. Now...if it was just hard playing to blame...well, he plays the 1,2, and 3 chambers as well, and sometimes the 6 judging from the watermarks. So I would expect those reeds to also go bad...but they don't. This is generally true. It is rare to see other reeds go bad. In low harps I see the 1 chamber need work at times, people who blow bend will often need some high end reeds, and 7 blow seems to be a problem for some but by far the most common reeds which need mending are 5 and 4 draw... 4 draw does get leaned on very heavily just by itself...listen to butterfield in born in Chicago...at the end of the record he is wailing that thing... But why 5 draw? People know it doesn't really bend and they don't go there...except commonly as I've described above... I know I seem to have strayed from the topic big time...but there is some kind of nexus I think... Learn to bend the 4 draw to pitch too. It's worthwhile to raise your awareness of it. it will help your harps last longer as well as your playing sound better and probably impact how you play the other bends. And when you play the warble...it is cool to bend but spare a thought for the 5 draw...especially on the higher harps it is vulnerable. On the hohners above C, it is like a 7 slot reed from the lower keys.
That madcat track is an even better example. Would it be better if it were playing cleanly, say on a chromatic? I don't think so.
As for the 4D bend, I've not thought about it in the same way. I guess I've learned the bend-it-to-the-floor blues thing, just like the 2D bend. Maybe needs some thought applied then.
The 5D, I use the bend a lot as a substitute note for 5B. I was actively taught to do that. But I don't do the bent-4-5 shake particularly, maybe that's protected my reeds.
So folding back to the OP, I think there must surely be something about practising scales in the way they are actually going to be used. Warts and all.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 17, 2016 4:32 AM
