Truth2012
17 posts
Mar 05, 2016
1:15 AM
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Since I started learning to play 13 months ago I have always used sp20's
I thought I would have a little change and treat myself to a crossover in A
I've got to say I'm a little disappointed! I was expecting a superior instrument to be honest to match the cost increase. What I'm finding is my sp20's are much smoother and easier to play and also strangely enough, more responsive.(and yes I have gapped the crossover!)
Could this be that my old harps are broken in, Hence the smooth playing?
Will the crossover in time exceed the quality of the sp20's in time if I persist and break it in?
I've got to say I love the tone of the crossover.
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SuperBee
3483 posts
Mar 05, 2016
4:51 AM
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No, I don't believe it's a question of breaking in. If the harp is hard to play, unresponsive, there's a problem. The sp20 uses the same reeds as crossover. What key did you get?
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Truth2012
18 posts
Mar 05, 2016
5:07 AM
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It's in A superbee
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Truth2012
19 posts
Mar 05, 2016
8:35 AM
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Thinking maybe because I lip purse I may not be used to the sandwich style harp and getting air leakage around my embrouchure making my technique poor
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Killa_Hertz
689 posts
Mar 05, 2016
10:49 AM
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In my opinion the recessed comb harps are more responsive ootb. And more airtight.
I think a bit of flatsanding could help. Also check the plates for warping. Ultimately a custom comb in the sandwich style is the way to go. That's why i buy the 1896 marine band. 1896 + screws + custom comb = better and cheaper than the crossover.
But that's just my opinion.
Also i don't think embouchure STYLE has anything to do with it. You could be leaking air thru the corners of your mouth. Practice getting the harp tight in the corners.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Truth2012
20 posts
Mar 05, 2016
11:07 AM
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I think you could be right KH. Lesson learnt!
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ME.HarpDoc
132 posts
Mar 05, 2016
2:22 PM
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Hey Killa, that was a good point about getting the harp far enough in mouth to seal corners. Do you think that's why your enjoying the sound of your Session Steels so much? I just checked where my Suzuki Harpmasters sat vs. Bluesmasters, Hammond and Sessions and realized I may have a little leakage at corners on Harpmaster due to the conventional cover plate vs the full length covers on the others. Not much difference but may have to work a little to get a seal.
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SuperBee
3486 posts
Mar 05, 2016
2:39 PM
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I really hate to be contradictory on this page. But there is no truth in the idea that recessed combs provide an advantage in responsiveness or Airtightness. Especially in the case of ootb harps, I'd say the reverse is more likely to be the case.
Regarding 'leaks': the biggest leak in any harp is the slots. This is why gap adjustment is the number 1 bang for your buck in harp set up.
But what people understand about gapping is hard to judge from a distance. Truth, I understand you have adjusted the gaps, but I don't know what you did. I also don't specifically know what the symptoms are.
But I can tell you that there is no reason inherent to the design which would cause your crossover to perform less well than a sp20 and in fact, it should perform better.
The most important/ likely factors:
Gaps, reed shape, component assembly, component fit.
Gaps: should be within cooee of the thickness of the tip of the reed. On both plates. Sometimes people forget about the blow plate but the chamber is an interactive place and you can't adjust just one reed and ignore the other. I continue to see harps with the draw side closed up and the blow side wide open. aim for balance between the gaps in blow and draw side. You may need one a little closer than the other but we are talking thousandths of an inch differences. Not millimetres usually.
Reed shape is a possible cause, though I would hope not. The crossovers I see are usually pdg in this regard. In any case, I think that's a topic I will let you research for yourself because there is a lot of variation about a lot of the associated skills and while it's not really complicated or technical, the details make for long winded notes.
Assembly can make a difference. The crossover comb is a feature of the harp. It's actually what you pay the big bucks for, and ime (which is more than many, not as great as quite a few) it's a good comb. I would probably not expect an improved performance from replacing a crossover comb with a Zajac comb, for instance. But I would expect a marine band or marine band deluxe to perform better with a crossover comb.
Which is not to say that there are not problem crossover combs. It's a mass produced item after all. Just I haven't seen any I'd say were bad and needed replacing.
I have however seem some bumps in the finish of the plate mating surfaces. Inspect yours, if it has obvious lumps, by all means sand them off. But be careful not to make the comb uneven and don't sand more than absolutely necessary.
The reed plates could be bent. I wouldn't worry too much about an even end to end bow, as long as there isn't some obvious kink or asymmetric aspect to the bow. A front to back bow is a different story and these can be a problem. If that's the case I'd be looking to my warranty...a reason to assess the problem before you dive in and make intrusive changes to the harp.
Assuming no lumps of comb and no problematic bowing defect on the plates, consider the assembly of the harp.
When you put the comb and reedplates together, insert the centre bolt first. Really it doesn't matter which one you insert first, but don't tighten them until they are all threaded in, then take up the slack in the centre first. And tighten this one first. But when I say 'tighten', this is a relative term. Really just enough so it is not loose. As soon as you exceed that amount of torque, you begin to distort the reed plate. Doing it up 'tight' actually makes it less 'airtight'. We are dealing with brass which is very soft metal. When you have the 3 screws in place and snug, check the assembled sandwich. Hold it up to the light. Does it look to be fitting together properly? If so, it probably is. I've had harps which I could see daylight through, which still played ok. Not overblow harps, but quite serviceable. The amount of air which can leak through a comb which is reasonably well fitting is minuscule compared to the amount that can leak through the slot of the non-activated reed in the chamber you are playing. That's why I say, if you have a premium quality harp which is hard to play and it isn't due to a reed issue, I believe it's a warranty job.
The last part of assembly is the cover plates. Here again, go easy on the torque. I did once have a crossover which played badly if I tightened the rear left corner too much. Obviously this was due to a distortion in one of the components. I never did track it down, but it was either a cover or reedplate. I used the comb in another harp for awhile and no problem.
As it's an A harp, I have nothing to say about the key. They don't get much easier to work with
I'd be happy to look at the harp but I'm s little out of the way down here so postage is probably out of the question.
My bet is you could have another look at those gaps and probably sort it out but really a crossover *should* be set up well from the factory. I haven't seen any that aren't pretty ok, and heard only the vaguest of allegations about it, but it's always possible you got a lemon. Sample size is always a factor with these kind of products.
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SuperBee
3487 posts
Mar 05, 2016
3:00 PM
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And re the embouchure/lip seal question, since you are comparing to sp20 I doubt there's much difference there that wouldn't sort itself out in a couple sessions. The 20 may seem a little fatter and smoother but as long as you are playing with soft lips it really shouldn't matter. I do think the lip players probably prefer the plastic mouthpiece of the recessed harps though, so that may be a thing. There a few different ways of lipping it though so I don't know. I haven't played that way regularly for quite a while but when I did I still mainly played sandwich harps and never had cut lips etc...but I did it more like Gussow (for want of an example people can see) back then and since I learned to tongue block I now play lipped using the bottom lip more, kinda similar to how I use my tongue, and it does use a bit more pressure I think, than the way I used to play. Actually I dunno if you've seen 'johnny ace' the mic builder play? He has lots of mic demo videos where he plays and from the tilt it's clear he blocks with his top lip. I started to do that also just before I got into tongue block and I think that is why I used the underside of my tongue at first. When I got more serious about adopting tb as default I made an effort to use top of tongue and then my lipping became Botton lip based. But I never could get comfortable with that until I took up tongue block...
Gindick looks to use his top lip I think when I see him play harp in s rack, but I dunno for sure.
Anyway, there are several ways to skin it.
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Truth2012
21 posts
Mar 05, 2016
11:46 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to help Superbee.
I will check all of those suggestions.
I learnt to play from Ginndick initially so I use the bottom lip. And yes your right it's much more comfortable to play recessed combs. Thinking now I should maybe have upgraded my existing harps. But there you go, you live and learn!
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Ian
304 posts
Mar 07, 2016
4:49 PM
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Great couple of posts superbee. They will be useful to a lot of people.
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