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Summertime - Self Test Challenge
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MindTheGap
1231 posts
Mar 03, 2016
12:04 AM
Chris L posted a self-test challenge playing Summertime, including the dreaded 3 full step bend. He says his note "...sounded like someone used a stethoscope to record a bad case of indigestion...". Right on.

Ok then, here's my 'naked' version, where I've tried to use the minimum of bluesy stuff to cover the truth. Plain, single notes. But even then I couldn't resist some tremolo. It's tunes like this that convinced me to buy a chromatic for the purpose.

C'mon people, who else will take on the challenge?



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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 03, 2016 12:12 AM
SuperBee
3472 posts
Mar 03, 2016
3:04 AM
I recorded mine, I'm not sure it's the same as the tab, but it's how I've played it for a long time...is that 4th? I think I always thought it was 3rd. I guess it does resolve on the 3"...
I played it that way for a long time but then I was encouraged to begin on 4 blow, and eventually that took over so that now the old way seems unfamiliar.
I doubt anyone will find my recording very interesting...in the interest of FairPlay I only recorded 1 take and no tuner to check pitch. Bb harp may be a cheat but in between my preffered A or G and the C harp which I think probably should be the standard.
Ah, I upload it soon if I can stir myself from this chair...
MindTheGap
1234 posts
Mar 03, 2016
3:21 AM
Ah. I don't know the position, I followed the tab. Well, ok then, in that case I recorded another one - in 3rd position I think. Anyway starting on the 6D and ending on 4D. This is the one I've played before. No escaping 3'' though, it's just in a different place.

And since we are going for full disclosure :) it took three goes. But...without the aid of a tuner or another instrument :) The first one I played six or so times to get something respectable.

EDIT: I tried your starting on 4B, and that defeated me. 4B 3D''' 4B, 3D' 3D'''...??? Good grief.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 03, 2016 3:33 AM
MindTheGap
1235 posts
Mar 03, 2016
3:49 AM
BTW I am treating this as a self-test challenge, not a comparison challenge!

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 03, 2016 3:49 AM
SuperBee
3475 posts
Mar 03, 2016
3:50 AM
Maybe I misled you. I just play it, I stopped thinking about the numbers. Hang on, I'll find a harp.
Ah yes, OK, my mistake. 4th it is. And 3rd is how I used to play it.nevermind. Ah, just looked over to see my daughter has her fingers in her ears, so must be doing well.
So no, I don't have a version stsrting on 4 blow...
SuperBee
3476 posts
Mar 03, 2016
4:13 AM
You're first 3" in the first recording is solid. Like super.
Embrace the 3". This is one of my tunes actually...summertime and yesterday are a fine pair for 'getting the ear in'. Yesterday, starts on 2 draw.
2 2" 2" +2, 3" 3 4' 4 +5 5 +5 4 4, 4 4 +4 3' 3" 2 3' 3" 3", +3 2" 3" +3 1 2" 3" 3"

You can figure the rest. Christelle prescribed that for me. She had just had that massive forearm harmonica tattoo done and came late to our meeting...but she was apologetic and gave me extra time and left me with that exercise and a lot more to think about.
She said I should come back for another lesson, but not too soon. I wonder...it's been a few years now

And then...'satin doll' and 'blue skies'. Blue skies, also in 3rd I think. Starts on 1draw with an immediate jump to the 5th..3". And includes a wonderful passage: 2" 2 3" 3' +4,
4' +4 3' +4, 3' 3" 3"' 3", 2 2" +2 2"
2chops
495 posts
Mar 03, 2016
5:23 AM
It is 4th POS. I started working in this in Ernest a few weeks ago. Using the Gindick vid as reference. Wonderful busking tune. Good workout on the -3**.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
MindTheGap
1236 posts
Mar 03, 2016
6:02 AM
Superbee - thanks you're too kind. But now 2chops has pointed out Gindick video on this, I see what you mean I should have used a C-harp not an A-harp. I find it much harder to be stable on a C-harp.

In fact he suggests ending on the 6D, which I'd not thought of. He himself plays a dodgy 3'', but just gets on with it - maybe that's the way.

I see, embrace the 3'' :)

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 03, 2016 6:04 AM
MindTheGap
1237 posts
Mar 03, 2016
7:02 AM
No it's no good, anything above a Bb-Harp and that note sounds like a foghorn. I'm trying to play gently elsewhere then FHHAAARRRP. Ship Ahoy!

Ok, it was a test and I failed it. I would have failed Mr Gindick too!

For the record I do think 3'' is ok in a gritty blues context though. And good, even interesting as a passing note. And ok as a sustained note on the lower keys. For me I mean.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 03, 2016 7:06 AM
2chops
496 posts
Mar 03, 2016
7:55 AM
Here’s my take on the ever maddening -3**.

Even if you don’t hit it dead on so as to make it sound good, like it was mentioned before, just hit it and be along your merry way. Strive for mastery of the thing. But honestly, even if you only get it close & it still sounds ok, no one will really notice except one of us. Or maybe another musician with a trained ear. And even then, claim artistic license and be done with it.

I use the C harp for this song and TB the upper register parts. I have mine setup fairly tight gap wise. So it is real touchy up there as far as control goes. If I LP up there all kinds of interesting sounds come out. For holes 6 & below I LP. There’s no way at this point that I can hit even a half decent -3** when TBing. So for me, this song in particular is a good exercise in going back & forth between the 2 playing methods.

I’m at work right now & haven’t been able to listen to your sound files yet. I’ll give my ears to them at lunch time.

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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
MindTheGap
1238 posts
Mar 03, 2016
8:31 AM
Yes I think you are right. At the end of the vid with guitar and harp, that sounds great where he's not slavishly following the tune at the low end. The foghorn sounds, but it's passing notes and it's all interesting musically.

I came across a similar thing when I was working out what to play with 'Key to the Highway'. Playing the tune properly calls for a sustained 3'' but on a D-harp it's even worse. I listened to what Little Walter did, and either cuts it short or bypasses it with other notes.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 03, 2016 8:35 AM
2chops
497 posts
Mar 03, 2016
9:11 AM
Ok. I just gave an ear to both versions. Very well played MTG. Bends sounded good. Better than how I'm hitting it currently.

I'll try to get a recording up some time this weekend of how I'm doing it. My wife and I are in the process of getting a new business started. So after I get home from my current day job, about all my time & energy have been given to that.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
MindTheGap
1240 posts
Mar 03, 2016
11:57 PM
Thank you. Listening to it again this morning I'm ok with with - but it's on an A-harp.

I tried different approaches on the C-harp, and cutting to the chase, going straight to the difficult last note, I recorded four different treatments.

I split the problem into three parts:
1. Starting the note
2. Sustaining it
3. Stopping the note

May sound daft thinking of it like that, but (as in Gindick's own example) it needs to be kicked into life and is ready to sputter out given any loss of resolve. And when it goes, it doesn't go quietly! It goes with a lot of pitch wobble and fuss.

I found two things helped with startup
1. Tongue blocking the bend
2. Lip blocking the bend, but using a soft 'Thaa' articulation instead of a hard 'Teh'.

I also found that TB helped with the sustained note, as I can lock the tongue the harp, whereas LP with the tongue free the slightest tongue movement causes big swings in pitch. And then there is conciously using the diaphragm to pull the air through. I need to go on one of Ian's courses!

First three are TB'd. Fourth is LP with 'Thaa'.



This is a good exercise, but I can tell you in a public performance on a C-harp, or even to the cat, I'd go with Gindick's suggesting of ending on 6D - no question about it. Even if I could get the sustained C-harp 3'' rock solid in pitch.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 04, 2016 12:09 AM
MindTheGap
1241 posts
Mar 04, 2016
12:20 AM
On the main forum discussion, Mr.So&So has posted a link to a number of forum member playing summertime. Most are of course playing with nice effects: swells, wahs, drenched reverb etc. Some a blues-ing it up good and proper, or playing around the tune jazz style. Which is what I'm specifically trying to avoid in this exercise - playing it unadorned i.e. naked.

Very useful to hear. Even Christelle sidesteps the sustained 3'', either breaking it up or playing around it. E.g. going up and down between 3' and 3''.

What I'm pleased about is that I can hear other people having the same struggles I have with this. And I mean specifically, not just in general terms.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL48BF17DF3ABBA830

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 04, 2016 2:17 AM
MindTheGap
1244 posts
Mar 04, 2016
10:47 PM
Well, I have found a way forward, from trying to get this to work every which way.

It's articulating the 3'' LP with a 'Thaaa' starting on with the tongue actually on the harp and pulling away and down. On the high harps this gives a little dip down onto pitch, which gives a more controlled start. Less noticeable on the C and Bb, very noticeable on E and F.

Here I'm am Embracing The 3'' on a variety of higher key harps, up to F. I think it sounds OK, acceptable enough for my level. Quite a harp-y sound IMO. I think I will make it 'my thing'. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 04, 2016 10:52 PM
SuperBee
3489 posts
Mar 05, 2016
7:18 PM
Yeas...I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying but I like that first figure you are playing in the demo. And all the playing sounds good. I haven't worked out which notes are the 3", so it's probably far to say they don't stink.
I just can't bring myself to play lipped anymore unless I really have to, so I'm limited to tongue blocked bends...I suppose I could try lifting and holding the bend. It's never occurred to me before.
MindTheGap
1251 posts
Mar 06, 2016
12:43 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

It's difficult of course to explain exactly these things. That's the curse of harp-learning. So, tongue on harp blocking the hole, tongue pulling away and down to start the note. Gives me a more controlled start = less foghorn. Anyway, it comes out as a fast dip down into the note. As I say it's more obvious in the higher keys, hard to hear at all on the Bb and C but I'm doing the same thing.

But yes, no use if you're TBing. As I said somewhere in the mists above, I got a more stable sustained 3'' TBing.

I'm doing the acid test of listening the recording again a day or so after. And I do think it's OK too. That was the goal - to eliminate the stinkers. I'm checking the notes against a guitar.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 06, 2016 12:47 AM
Rontana
308 posts
Mar 23, 2016
9:31 AM
Thought I'd toss an entry into this, seeing as how it's one of my all-time favorite songs.

This is a C harp . . . a Marine Band 1896.

Thoughts and comments are welcomed.

Last Edited by Rontana on Mar 23, 2016 9:32 AM
MindTheGap
1325 posts
Mar 23, 2016
9:55 AM
Now, that's really good. I like the whole thing, including what you did with the 'difficult' notes. That's the way. I like the sound you get close onto the mic - rich pickings there I think. I'll be aiming to play it like this.

Oh and nice dynamics - strong barking notes here, soft vibrato tailing off here. And moving from the minor feel to a major feel at the end. A Picardy Cadence kind of thing.

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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 23, 2016 1:00 PM


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