kudzurunner
2272 posts
Jan 21, 2011
4:32 AM
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I made my deal, paid a good dollar, and got my Masco MU-5. It's in great shape. One owner. Here's what he wrote me:
"I remember when I got it at age 15-16 (or so - that would make it summer of 1967 or 68), I thought it was kinda cool, but not as cool as other amps I wanted, but couldn't afford - but was a good first amp for me and my awful Zim-Gar electric solid body. I do know I was the first actual owner, as I took it personally out of the sealed box. It was one of four samples sent to the loudspeaker factory at the time in 1952, my birth year (I distinctly remember, because the old German factory owner - Mr. Pfister (honest, his real name) - made the joke that the amp and I were the same age). I've always wondered what happened to the other three. Two were opened boxes but like new (other than 15 years of dust on them), and two were still sealed, never opened until I picked one and opened it. I think, in fact, these were possibly pre-production samples, as the later ones were assembled elsewhere with loudspeakers built at this factory (in Middletown, NY, now defunct), which likely makes this amp an even rarer collectors piece as one of the earliest versions of this model."
I've had a chance to play it for a while and I really like it. It's not quite as loud or aggressive as the one I played over in Europe recently--Ben Bouman's amp--and it's possible that Ben's was a slightly later model. On the other hand, it is smooth and mellow, at least with the several different dynamic mics I used. The speaker cone is free from any weird sounds. The only problematic sound is a 60 hz hum: a fairly loud one when you turn everything up without any mic plugged in. The amp has the original cord and 2-prong plug. Do you think this hum is generic to the amp--a design flaw or something that necessarily happens with ungrounded plugs--or do you think wear and tear over the past 50 years has let the hum slip in? I've emailed Skip Simmons and may be sending it to him.
There's no headroom, which is to say, when I play it, I crank both tone and volume all the way up and it sounds fine that way, but I have a hunch that with a little TLC from Skip, power might come up enough so that I'd need to back it off from full on.
Here are some photos:
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nicewrk
19 posts
Jan 21, 2011
4:42 AM
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Hey Hay,
The most important factor is the Mojo? Next I would install a grounded plug. Not only may save a life but may solve 90% of the Hum.
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RT123
48 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:28 AM
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very cool
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5F6H
487 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:34 AM
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Grounded AC cord is definitely a good idea, especially if you're going to be singing whilst playing, getting shocked in the face, off a vocal mic, isn't likely to kill you, but it sure spices up a performance...you don't want kids and the easily offended about when you start screaming 4 letter words down the mic! ;-).
Hum is possibly down to more than one issue (bad filter caps, poor/inappropriate grounding, old tubes, octal preamp tubes are generally more prone to hum).
The MU5 is also "single ended" (like a champ, not push-pull like a deluxe) - single ended amps don't reject heater hum (60Hz in US) like push-pull amps do, so they are often more prone to it (despite it looking like Masco connected the heater string to the power tube's cathode, to dc bias the heaters & reduce hum on some models).
See how it stands after a service & new electrolytic caps, as you note, power may come up & the hum may not be an issue at the volumes that you will be using the amp at. If not, I'm sure Skip can employ a more useful dc bias circuit for the heaters (6V6 cathode voltage is perhaps too low to have a significant effect, a voltage divider from the B+ rail can be implemented with 2 resistors and usually silences heater hum with 35-40vdc riding over the 6.3VAC). Skip will understand all this & has probably dealt with it effectively before, whether by the method I describe, or another.
What is the jack socket in the back panel, a line out?
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6SN7
145 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:53 AM
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@ adam "...I may send it to Skip Simmons..."
Not for nothing, but if I had the choice of getting free advise at this site or sending it to Skip, it would be out the door tomorrow.
As you said, you made your deal, now protect your investment and send it to Skip. He will fix that baby up and more importantly, it will be the right fix that will last.
The biggest problem with getting these adorable mascos, bogens, etc is that they always have a hum, bad cord, crappy tube base,etc. Plus you never know who been messing with them over the years.
I got a MA-17n from Skip, for 650$Bulletproof and will work for years. How much was yours?
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Ray
287 posts
Jan 21, 2011
6:08 AM
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Congrats!
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shbamac
64 posts
Jan 21, 2011
7:38 AM
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Nice. Welcome to the club. I picked one last year and absolutely love it. Enjoy it!
Very curious to know what you paid...?
Thought I'd add a few pics of mine
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 9:58 AM
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Littoral
259 posts
Jan 21, 2011
8:41 AM
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Looked over Skip Simmons website. Candyland.
I sure do appreciate his one page take
"The Truth About Vintage Amps"
http://skipsimmonsamps.com/truthaboutvintageamps.html
It's short so I'll copy it here.
I would like to dispel some of the myths, misinformation, rumors, and guesses out there about using and restoring vintage amplifiers. Any of my customers will tell you that I tend to be blunt, but I’m just trying to save us all some time. If everything you know about tube amps came from the internet, you might want to prepare for a shock.
You probably don’t need new tubes.
You don’t need new transformers.
You might not need new capacitors. I know you read a book that said otherwise, but the book is wrong.
You do not always need a three-prong plug. Putting one on your mint tweed Champ is just plain wrong.
"Recapping” a vintage amp can alter the tone significantly. If you were lucky enough to own a great old amp, why in the world would you want to alter the tone significantly? Read "Recapping . . . the Saga Continues"
Most “techs” make extra money by selling current-production parts and accessories that you probably don’t need.
Restoring a vintage amp does not mean replacing all the parts. “Techs” who routinely advise wholesale parts replacement often do so because they don’t have the knowledge and experience to diagnose problems. They are merely hoping that changing all the parts will fix the problem.
I often have amps sent to me AFTER they have supposedly been repaired elsewhere. Can you believe that a very well known shop replaced every single resistor and capacitor in an original ’60 4-10 Bassman, but failed to spot the actual problem – a bad choke? Hmm. I wonder if anyone in that shop had ever heard a real tweed Bassman... they thought the amp sounded great.
I’m sorry, but “any solder junkie with two beers worth of parts” (March ’08 VG) cannot make an old amp better.
Unnecessary parts replacement and poor quality repairs will ultimately decrease the value of your vintage amp. For some reason, techs who wouldn’t dream of replacing the original pots in a ‘57 Strat have no problem gutting a ‘57 Bandmaster.
All the new boutique amps out there are just fine. Most of them are very well made and should have no real servicing problems for many years. There is just one problem. An original old amp just demolishes a “clone” of the same amp, even if it is “hard-wired” and uses “custom-made capacitors.” Why? Because there is a LOT more to good amp tone than just copying a schematic!
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Greg Heumann
1005 posts
Jan 21, 2011
8:50 AM
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Congrats on the amp, Adam!
I agree that Skip is the guy. However I take issue with a couple of statements above.
1) "You do not always need a three-prong plug. Putting one on your mint tweed Champ is just plain wrong."
They don't downgrade the judging of vintage cars because seatbelts have been installed for safety. 2-prong power cords are potentially dangerous, even lethal. A combination of a poorly wired power source (different circuits at different ground levels) which can be found at some venues, or certain component failure... Install a 3-wire power cord, please.
2) "You might not need new capacitors. I know you read a book that said otherwise, but the book is wrong."
Well, I've rebuilt about 135 Kalamazoo amps. Out of those, 2 had the original power filter caps in good enough working condition to use. And those amps were built in the mid-60's. I would alter this statement, "There's a very slim chance you won't need new caps." (Skip may be talking about a much wider range of amps, and one built in the 80's or nineties probably WON'T.) Also - I'm talking about the big power filter caps, which have some effect on tone (the only effect is via power supply sag. The smaller caps in my experience need replacing much less often and I agree - leave them original. Don't replace what doesn't need replacing.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 8:50 AM
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chromaticblues
504 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:11 PM
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Greg you absolutly coorrect. I am an electrician and use to build amps because I love amped harp. A grounded cord has absolutly nothing to do with tone unless you like 60 hz humm. ANYONE that says other wise is just a self tought tube guy that is wrong!
However everything else he says on his sight I agree with. You always hear people say if its old you should just put new tubes in and caps. That is just not the case and I found that out the hard way a few times!
A three prong chord is always the first thing to do. It is a smart safe upgrade!
As far as the headroom problem Adam. Thats a different can of worms. Your not going to be able to keep it stock to get more power before breakup.
The 6X5 is a 6.3 volt rectifier and is the root of your peoblem. The internal impedance is high for that tube and because of the pinout and heater voltage you can't sub a stronger tube. If there is room you can install a small 120V primary 5V secondary 2.5 amp heater transformer. Then you can try a 5Y3 Then 5V4 Then a GZ34. Each tube will give you a little more power and at the same time you'll be able turn the volume pot up a little further before breakup. So with each tube you'll get a little more of what you want. Without a schematic a can't say what else to do. If you tell skip this I'm sure he'll know what I'm talking about.
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kudzurunner
2273 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:17 PM
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@chromatic: I'm not interesting in modifying the amp in order to make it more powerful. Since it's an old amp and probably hasn't ever been worked on, I'm interested in having it brought back up to stock spec, on the assumption that at least slightly increased power or brightness or both will result.
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kudzurunner
2274 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:26 PM
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@shbamac: Wow, yours is a lot prettier than mine! I can't believe that's stock, is it? Did you have it refinished? It looks fresh out of the box.
I don't usually talk prices, but in this case I will. What the heck: I might as well live dangerously. The seller wanted $1000. Skip told me it was worth about $600. I told the guy that I'd been advised that it wasn't worth more than $750. He said, "Let's split the difference and make it $875." I paid a little too much, in other words. On the other hand, it is a legit one-owner amp, and--he suggests--maybe even a prototype. He packed it for shipping with remarkable care. I now own it. It sounds really sweet. I don't have anything with quite that sound. For small coffee shop type gigs where even the HG2 is too loud, it's perfect paired with my Kay. I'm happy.
I am going to send it to Skip, though. I think it deserves a little TLC.
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5F6H
488 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:31 PM
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I agree with Greg, you rarely need to change tone & coupling caps (only change the specific caps that exhibit a problem), but very old filter caps rarely sound good. Old filter caps pull down the B+ voltage and make the amp sound weak & mushy. I have never had an amp sound worse after a filter cap job. I have seen amps go up in smoke mid set though, due to a blown 30yr old filter cap!
If a tube sounds good, it sounds good, if it sounds better than new tube, then keep it in there. If you are doing work for gigging musicians, then they are free to use whatever tubes they want, but a new tube comes with a warranty. If it fails they get a replacement free...if the manufacturer shut down 40yrs ago, you're on your own.
I have heard plenty of amps with 2 prong cords that don't hum excessively (60Hz is usually indicative of heater issues)& grounded amps that did. I recommend a 3 prong cord because Adam sings & a PA will be grounded - a vocal mic therefore offers any charge above ground potential, that has accumulated in the amp's chassis, a path to ground. I have seen sparks from a mic open up a guy's lip before, even if you are not left bleeding, it's hard to carry on a number when you're getting zapped in the mouth!
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 1:34 PM
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ReedSqueal
59 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:44 PM
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"Volume" - "Tone" What else could you ask for? :-)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 5:05 PM
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6SN7
147 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:58 PM
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Thanks for talking price. You bought a grail, not an annuity, living the dream baby!
If you are happy, it's a good deal. You got what you want and better, what you need. Some serious mojo. A first class lunch box of an amp. And it's so photogenic!
Time marches on, the water circles the drain and these amps are not a commodity. I am delighted that it will be played and will not sit forlornly in a Hard Rock Cafe franchise.
My understanding is Skip has some 8 watt Mascos he sells as harp amps. Did he mention the model #'s of those? Dude is a fount of info.
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tookatooka
2101 posts
Jan 21, 2011
3:04 PM
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Just a small point. When people buy amps like this is it the done thing to recondition them to make them look new or is it like an antique where the wear and tear and patina adds to the items charm and value?
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NiteCrawler .
98 posts
Jan 21, 2011
3:08 PM
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@shbamac:Out of curiousity,what did pop charge you for yours? That baby is in prestine condition,as said,it looks almost brand new,what a score.I wish you the best with yours Adam,I,m sure that baby will be "Wicked"after the tune-up.
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 3:11 PM
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Mojokane
244 posts
Jan 22, 2011
12:35 AM
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what a beauty! both of em!...if had to choose...I'd grab the minty one. What a find!
Thanks, now I have a bad case of 'amp envy'...
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Ray
288 posts
Jan 22, 2011
7:19 AM
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As far as refinishing vintage amps, sometimes it's unavoidable. If you could get a good deal on an old Masco or Valco you wouldn't pass it up if it didn't have a speaker or handle or the tolex was completely gone but the chassis complete and it sounded great, would you? If it's not complete and ALL ORIGINAL then fixer up and make it look nice or leave it ratty. Seems like a personal choice. We do it to old bullet mics all the time and they sell for top dollar. Just my opinion. :o)
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ZackPomerleau
1366 posts
Jan 22, 2011
7:39 AM
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But it doesn't go to eleven?
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kudzurunner
2277 posts
Jan 22, 2011
9:19 AM
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Hold the presses! I have fixed the amp and it has an awesome sound.
Here's what I did. The amp as purchased had been modified: somebody had installed a direct out (1/4" phone jack, female) that bypassed the speaker. I got out my soldering iron this morning, took it out (see photo below) and reconnected the original speaker wires to the speaker. Holy moly! The thing has THE sound now. And this is with a dynamic mic, not a bullet:
Masco test
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2011 9:27 AM
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Ray
289 posts
Jan 22, 2011
9:27 AM
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Sounds damn good! I'm sure your a happy guy today.:o)
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shbamac
70 posts
Jan 22, 2011
12:04 PM
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Very nice, sounds sweet. Glad you got that worked out. I prefer running a dynamic through mine. Sounds better to my ears than my CR/CMs and crystals.
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chromaticblues
506 posts
Jan 22, 2011
12:51 PM
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That was easy.
Its nice when things are as easy as that!
Adam I would suggest doing some research on 6SL7 type tubes. My practice amp (the one I was going to let you use before I got lost in NYC) has that same tube. When I first built it I had a Tung-sol 6SL7 from the fifties in it (I bought 6 of them because they are soppose to be great tubes) and it sounded awsome, but was a little noisy. I tried all 6 of the tubes and they were all noisy (some worse than others). I then bought 6 more, but all 6 were different tubes. WOW!! What a difference from tube to tube. These are not like 12ax7 tubes. They very in sound from one to the next so much it just blew me away. One of them was just perfect! It was real easy to figure out witch one to leave in. Then I sold the rest on Ebay.
Old military spec tubes are always a good place to start. Mine is a 1940's raytheon VT-229.
Your amp sounds sweet now. I just thought I'd share the littte bit of experience I have with those tubes.
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 4:08 PM
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tookatooka
2104 posts
Jan 22, 2011
1:30 PM
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I've heard it all now. A professor with a soldering iron. A very dangerous combination :o)
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Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2011 1:50 PM
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Ray
291 posts
Jan 22, 2011
7:54 PM
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I bet Adams Masco didn't get much rest today. :o)
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pistolero
25 posts
Jan 22, 2011
8:29 PM
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Sounds way cool to me Adam.
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It's MUSIC, not just complicated noise.
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jimr
2 posts
Jan 23, 2011
10:30 AM
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The effect of a grounded line cord on hum can be determined without installing it, by rigging a temporary chassis ground. Obtain a replacement grounded plug, connect a wire to the ground prong of the plug ONLY, attach the wire to the chassis with an alligator clip, and plug it in to the wall. Play the amp with its two prong plug and reverse the plug in the wall.
If one is determined to leave the original line cord, The separate and removable ground wire can be rigged for regular use. Establish a solid connection to the chassis, zip tie the ground and line cords together over their length....
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Skip Simmons
1 post
Mar 18, 2011
3:56 PM
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Hello Adam and all- Just thought I would chime in on a couple of things.
Greg's comment on replacing filter caps on Kalamazoo amps is right, but Gibson used some of the worst filter caps out there. They ARE almost always bad. However, I have had hundreds of old Fenders that sounded great with all original filter caps, and they are still out there sounding great without a single new part. I have also put an awful lot of new filter caps in Fenders that needed them! It all boils down to the individual amp, and how to maximize the enjoyment it gives the owner. In the case of Adam's MU-5, it appeared to me that the "can-style" filter cap had been replaced once already, and it checked out great. After conferring with the owner, it was decided to leave it in.
The Great Grounded Cord Debate is similar. The rules are different for different amps and applications. Every Masco head I build has a grounded cord, but I stick with my statement about needing one for a mint tweed Champ. If you are out jamming with a mint tweed Champ, go ahead and put a grounded cord on it. Just don't use one of those orange ones, please! I admit that my "Truth" page is a little blunt, but after years of seeing beautiful old amps ruined, I felt the need to offer an alternate (and wider) viewpoint; one that comes from many years of experience with thousands of vintage amps of all brands, belonging to guitar guys, harp fiends, steel guitar players, recording engineers, rockabilly cats, jazz dudes, punk rockers, collectors, and dealers. Even a little MU-5 offers a lot to study- I often tell people it's like making bread: There are only a few ingredients, but so many variations!
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Skip Simmons Amp Repair
707/678-5705
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strawwoodclaw
222 posts
Mar 18, 2011
4:14 PM
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I think the best sounding vintage amps are the ones that are in 100% original condition that have been well looked after or hardly used & stored away but they are harder to find. I think it its a crime to change all the caps & the powercable if they do not need changing. You can buy a vintage amp in amazing condition take it to the wrong tech & they will re tube it change all the caps devalue the amp & steal it's Mojo tis no good , on the other hand some will make better amps once they are brought back to spec & serviced
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5F6H
562 posts
Mar 18, 2011
4:36 PM
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Strawwoodclaw, I disagree some, clean amps that are rarely used tend to not sound that good...in some cases, it's probably why they ended up not getting used in the first place. As far as the AC cord goes, we all hold on to microphones that are grounded to the amp's chassis via the mic cord. If potential builds up on the amp's chassis, with no path to ground, it will look for one. All it takes is for you to get close to a grounded PA mic, or touch a radiator, or water pipe that's grounded, for you to get a zap...I have watched guys get shocked in the mouth on stage, or involuntarily throw their prized vintage mics up in the air to come crashing down on a hard floor ...always accompanied by expletives (often amplified)...it's just unnecessary. The AC cord isn't going to affect the tone of the amp unless the original was broken/defective. The shock from an ungrounded AC cord is very unlikely to do you real damage & if you are careful with a 2 prong, you can be fine...but why have the hassle of getting zapped. If you play & sing, it's pretty well essential.
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2011 5:20 PM
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tmf714
544 posts
Mar 18, 2011
6:13 PM
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"They don't downgrade the judging of vintage cars because seatbelts have been installed for safety".
If you bring the car to Pebble Beach they will.
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toddg
28 posts
Mar 19, 2011
3:38 AM
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Congrats on the Amp Adam !! I want one now !!!
Skip is the Man to send any amp too and one of the nicest guys I have ever talked too !! I have a few amps I still need to send him ! ( I promise Skip )
Lazy Todd G AKA Jersey Slim who buy's too many amps !! ( No Relation to lazy Lester other then promoting one of his cds !! )
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rbeetsme
1489 posts
Feb 07, 2014
5:39 PM
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My Mu-5 is for sale on the 2014 For Sale thread
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