dkrulewich
1 post
Dec 08, 2018
11:43 AM
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I have a game (or bad habit if you prefer) of driving with a harp in one hand, the other on the wheel, radio or CD surfing through random songs of any genre and any key. I try to play along without changing harps.
Playing in say 9th position ( A flat ) on C harp can produce some different sounding tones, albeit not my favorite. On the other hand I sometimes actively choose 5th position.
I'm interested to hear Forum members thoughts and suggestions, musicians to follow for ideas about playing this way, relationships between mode and position, merits or lack thereof, etc.
I'm new to Forum so apologize if I missed already existing threads addressing this.
Last Edited by dkrulewich on Dec 08, 2018 11:44 AM
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The Iceman
3732 posts
Dec 08, 2018
12:01 PM
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Well, most here seem to feel that driving with one hand on the wheel and the other used to hold/play the harmonica is kinda dangerous to you and others on the road...
If you take this approach out of the car and into a practice room, it is a great way to expand your technique and ability to choose and find notes that make for interesting ideas.
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The Iceman
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dkrulewich
2 posts
Dec 08, 2018
4:54 PM
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Safety is paramount. I do need to find a better practice room.
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ridge
752 posts
Dec 09, 2018
2:53 PM
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I spent a lot of time doing the same thing you're describing with a G harmonica. It's how I had my first epiphanies on 4th and 5th position as well as re-doubling efforts to move 2nd position licks and moves into 1st position.
As for relationships between modes and positions, it sounds like you may have already found it if you're asking the question like that on your first post! My dead simple take / revelation is that if you know a major scale in one position, you automatically "know" the corresponding relative minor scale my shifting your starting note accordingly and playing the same inhale exhale pattern. So like the relationship between 1st position Major and 4th position minor by starting on 3" instead of +4 and ending on -6 instead of +7
After learning some of these positions, certain non-harmonica songs become more attainable. My one current example is "Funk 49" by James Gang where the song modulates up a whole step on one of the riffs. So if you're playing in 2nd position, you quickly shift to playing the same riff in 4th position without needing to switch harps.
I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but it ultimately boils down to a few motivators
- Becoming a better musician
- Improve communication with other musicians
- Staving off hitting plateaus/rutts in my playing and being able to get out of them easier
This is a great topic. I'll try to add some more. If you're looking for re-inforcement for following this path you've got it from me!
If you haven't already, go watch some of Chris Michalek's (RIP) videos on 11th position and just his general attitude for approaching other positions, transferring licks, etc.
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Ridge's YouTube
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dkrulewich
5 posts
Dec 11, 2018
11:41 AM
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Ridge, thanks a lot for your comments. I will check out your suggestions. Related thread going on right now about Fifth position, you might have noted.
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hvyj
3660 posts
Dec 12, 2018
8:35 AM
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Positions 1 through 6 and 12 are each associated with a particular mode. Playing in a certain position does not necessarily mean you are playing in the corresponding mode. But you can play all of the notes of the corresponding mode somewhere on the harp without having to bend.
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dkrulewich
7 posts
Dec 12, 2018
9:44 AM
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hvyj: That's kind of how I think of it too.
Pretty challenging to play certain mode position combinations. 2nd position in Ionian requires overblowing to avoid the flatted 7th, for example.
On the other hand, putting otherwise mixolydian 2nd position in dorian or aeolian isn't hard for anyone with bending skills.
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hvyj
3661 posts
Dec 12, 2018
8:14 PM
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I think in terms of modes quite a bit--especially with respect to choosing what position to play for a particular tune. It makes sense. Harmonica is a diatonic instrument and modes are diatonic scales.
Ionian in second position is sort of playable on the bottom register with plenty of bends, but no OBs required. Aeolian is also problematic--the flat sixth would only be available at the 8 hole blow bend.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 12, 2018 8:54 PM
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dkrulewich
8 posts
Dec 12, 2018
10:13 PM
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Hvyj: I'm partly following but not sure. For clarity suppose a C harp so 2nd position referring to G regardless of mode. Then G Ionian (normal major) should require overblown hole 5 for F# and regular hole 9 blow bend in upper register. But I guess you probably meant by lower register the incomplete G scale starting on hole 1 blow C. Definitely that one is pretty straight forward.
For G Aeolian (natural minor) agree that regular blow bend on hole 8 needed for E flat. But the b flat overblown on hole 6 seems to me the bigger problem. And In low register overblown hole 1 as E flat can be a pain for the partial scale. Finally the other E flat at 5 overblown.
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hvyj
3662 posts
Dec 12, 2018
11:00 PM
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Yeah, I meant the “incomplete” lower register scale, But it’s not really incomplete. You can get a complete scale, but it just doesn’t start on root a/k/a do. Sort of an inversion.
I don’t OB. Never learned how. I understand avoid notes though.
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dkrulewich
11 posts
Dec 13, 2018
6:25 AM
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Hvyj: I get what you mean. My bias to consider as incomplete stems from idea that starting note within the major scale defines mode.
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dougharps
1866 posts
Dec 13, 2018
8:05 AM
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@dkrulewich
Since we are talking the Aeolian mode of a sharp key (G) shouldn't you say D# as opposed to Eb?
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Doug S.
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dkrulewich
12 posts
Dec 13, 2018
1:08 PM
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Doug,I'm not sure I know the answer. That aspect of musical theory sometimes confuses me. But wouldn't the key signature of this would be the same as b flat major, which essentially makes it a flat key not sharp?
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dougharps
1868 posts
Dec 13, 2018
1:40 PM
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You may be correct. Perhaps I am confusing two different key/mode issues:
If you are speaking of playing the Aeolian natural minor SCALE in first position on a G harmonica starting on the "G" note, then yes, you are playing the relative minor of the Bb Major scale, and Eb is the correct designation. The relative major is a flat key and my understanding is that notes are named flat.
If you are playing the Aeolian MODE of the G major scale in 4th position on a G harmonica, starting on the "E" note, then you are playing in Em, and the correct designation for any incidentals would be sharped. The relative major is a sharp key and my understanding is that notes are named as being sharped.
If you were referring to the first situation, you were correct. I may have confused the key of G Heart of Gold issue from the 5th position thread.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 13, 2018 1:47 PM
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hvyj
3665 posts
Dec 13, 2018
2:55 PM
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@Doug: I think the proper convention for using letters to name notes of a scale is never to use any letter more than once. So, for example, in G aeolian since the fifth degree of the scale is D, the sixth degree is Eb (not D#) as you pointed out.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 13, 2018 2:57 PM
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hvyj
3666 posts
Dec 13, 2018
2:55 PM
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@Doug: FWIW, I think the proper convention for using letters to name notes of a scale is never to use any letter more than once. So, for example, in G aeolian since the fifth degree of the scale is D, the sixth degree is Eb (not D#), as you pointed out.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 13, 2018 3:00 PM
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dougharps
1869 posts
Dec 13, 2018
3:34 PM
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@hvyj
First case Aeolian scale G (relative minor of Bb) in my post above:
G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G
Second case Aeolian mode of G (key of Em)in my post above:
E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E
If there was an incidental in the second case, it would be D#, not Eb.
But I think the first case is what dkrulewich was speaking of, and I misunderstood his post.
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Doug S.
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Sundancer
275 posts
Dec 13, 2018
5:06 PM
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I concur with Iceman.
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Piro39
136 posts
Dec 13, 2018
7:23 PM
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A great example of 4th position playing is Rhythm Willie's Breath Taking Blues. It is in the key of G minor using a Bb harp. It is played on the upper register with 6 draw as the tonic. I start it with a pickup note from the V (D) which is 5 hole blow.
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Raven
146 posts
Dec 14, 2018
12:42 PM
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I just carry the whole case with all keys including highs, lows and some minors. Isn't that what the passenger seat is for, anyway?
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dkrulewich
14 posts
Dec 14, 2018
1:50 PM
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Raven: lol, sure, why not. Real answer, each to his own. But there is opportunity to create different sounds.
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dkrulewich
15 posts
Dec 14, 2018
1:51 PM
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Raven: lol, sure, why not. Real answer, each to his own. But there is opportunity to create different sounds.
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hvyj
3668 posts
Dec 15, 2018
7:26 PM
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Rhythm Willie is a monster. In many respects, playing natural minor in 4th position is easy because it’s almost impossible to hit a bad note so long as you don’t bend.
I consider 4th to be a straight harp position. Some players are intimidated by the 3 draw full step bend necessary to play root in the low octave, but you can actually get a lot of mileage out of 4th without playing that note in that register if it gives you trouble. However, there are virtually no usable chords and very few bends that won’t throw you out of key (draw 6 bend will give you major 7th for harmonic minor and blow 8 bend is the flat 5th). But many players who are only comfortable in second position don’t know what to do if they can’t fall back on chords and bending notes all over the place.
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dkrulewich
17 posts
Dec 16, 2018
8:44 AM
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Hyvj: nice. Being predominantly a single note vs chord player, and originally trained on keyboard, I was mystified by 4th position NOT being chosen as the natural relative minor.
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hvyj
3670 posts
Dec 16, 2018
9:27 AM
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Like you, I am predominately a single note player. But I am also not predominantly a blues player. I learned a long time ago that you can fit diatonic harp to a much broader range of material if you don’t play chords. Personally, I have been largely uninterested in practicing tongue slaps and stuff like that, because such techniques, while cool, are too style specific and position specific to be of anything but limited use. But, players who primarily play second position blues undoubtedly get greater mileage from such techniques. I guess it all depends on what you want to play and how you want to sound.
Third position has always struck me as a peculiar choice for minor key blues playing since you don’t have a flat 6th without having to bend and you have to assiduously avoid the major 6th. Good for Dorian minor, but IMHO, 4th and 5th positions are better for playing natural minor and most minor key blues are natural minor.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 16, 2018 9:34 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
1092 posts
Dec 16, 2018
9:41 PM
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Well, if you're going to practice harp while driving, using one harp for all keys is probably safer than looking around your harp kit for the right key. Have you considered going chromatic?
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dkrulewich
19 posts
Dec 17, 2018
9:17 AM
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Actually I'm a very cautious driver with at least one hand always on the wheel. I play both diatonic and chromatic. Though operating the slide button with one hand does present its own challenges.
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