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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > The learning road; what would you do differently?

The learning road; what would you do differently?

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One Palm John 44 posts Jul 17, 2018 2:28 AM	With so many experienced and excellent players on this board I thought I'd ask a couple of questions I've been pondering lately regarding learning. 1. In your journey what practices, ideas or habits were the most impactful on your playing and understanding of the harp? Which had the greatest return on investment? Which had the worst? 2. If you were doing it all over again, what, if anything, would you do differently? Did you waste time on something? Start learning something too late? Of course the journey is subjective, but I'm very interested in learning if there are any patterns.
Grey Owl 942 posts Jul 17, 2018 3:25 AM	Well I'm experienced in the fact that I've been playing for many years but self taught. My early playing years were just ploughing a lonely furrow as I knew of no other people in my area who played harp. I was motivated by stuff I heard on the radio. Work Song, Stone Fox Chase (courtesy of it being used as the theme tune on the excellent TV Music programme 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' then Juke, 54321 by Manfred Mann, 'On the road again' and so on. I had no real structure in my playing, if I heard a song in whatever genre and I liked it I would try to play it and always in 2nd position. I played from time to time over the years as the mood took me then pretty well stopped for a long period of time and still only had a handful of songs I could play. Then around 10 years ago I was browsing on the net and I came across some harp sites, Adam Gussow, Paul Lassey,as well as some other current players namely Todd Parrott, Christelle Berthon, and a wide variety of others including two French players I really like in JJ Milteau and Michel Herblin. So my practice involved trying to play some of their songs. As I have a good ear I then began to select random melodies I liked and play them and adding fills or improvise over a backing track. Joined Youtube and started putting stuff on there. I have always wondered whether I should have put more time into looking into music theory, practicing scales but it never has appealed probably to my loss. I have enjoyed playing in different positions and learning to customise my harps. I don't have any regrets. I just love the harmonica, I think it's a magical instrument and even though I play another couple of instruments the harp is by far my favourite. Maybe one regret though is that I wasn't born a bit later to coincide with the internet, but then again I would have missed th 1960's! I don't think I would do anything differently as I really enjoyed my early casual playing and then being hooked again in a much deeper way since. I have played considerably more hours and learnt so much more since taking up harp again 10 years ago than in all the previous years put together. In any event I don't think my marriage would have survived if my current intensive level interest in the instrument was back in the earlier years ! YouTube Last Edited by Grey Owl on Feb 22, 2022 7:37 AM
Spderyak 228 posts Jul 17, 2018 4:11 AM	I would concentrate more on rhythm and timing ...and less time learning dominate, sub dominate, mixolydian, dorian etc lingo that I never use.
jbone 2632 posts Jul 17, 2018 5:16 AM	I am similar to Grey Owl in some respects. Also self taught which was the long way around to arrive anyplace meaningful. In those times there were no online lessons or forums since there was no internet! I knew one guy who could have taught me some rudiments but I was not in financial position to pay him so it was not an option. I found the "blue notes" on a harp in 2nd position and began to learn to follow along. This was the basis for my learning, monkey hear monkey do! Eventually I moved to a bigger city that actually had open mic/jam nights around town, and discovered one near to my apartment. I began attending and was allowed on stage in front of a mic. Kind of like giving a gorilla an AK47 at the time but I did begin to learn manners on stage. With time I found some other places and played at their jams as well but I really knew very little about anything but 2nd position, which very seriously limited me. Still, as time went on and I went through changes in my life, I began to realize there was much I needed to learn if I wanted to sound like my heroes, like the Walters, Wolf, Butterfield, SBI and II, and others. I had a learning issue of some kind all my life and I did not know it until a few years ago. I found ways to learn anyway but not in orthodox ways. The internet became a thing and also I was working with bands as a harp player, and later as a singer too. I found forums and then youtube got huge. My list of heroes got bigger. I attended every jam I could, luckily Dallas Texas had a lot going on in that era. Some weeks I was either gigging or at a jam 4 nights a week. By this time I was meeting other harp players and trying to soak up some knowledge from them. A couple of them really took me under their wing and tried to get me out of only 2nd position, into 1st and 3rd. Eventually I got it and began really learning. Like Grey Owl I never learned music in the traditional way, so my language is not like standard music language. It's all gut playing at the bottom. But over 45 years I have gotten pretty good over all. When I think about it most of my heroes on harp probably didn't know much music either, they felt what they felt and communicated it through the harp. I count myself a success musically since I have been with several bands over many years and have been in a duo with my wife for 14 years. I am exclusively working with her these days and have for 4 or 5 years now. We are both self taught and yet we get the job dome very well. If I had it to do over I think I'd have made an effort to learn piano since this would have been a very good basis to know what I was doing with harp later on. I pretty much learned it anyway but it took a few decades instead of a few semesters. Playing different positions is all about music theory, so what I know is a bit of theory and a lot about expression. I would have sought out other musicians as well and especially harp players and horn players. I could have shortened my development time a lot. Spderyak has a good point, learning rhythm harp first makes more sense than trying to nail melodies and lead parts early on. Manners and the art of musical conversation is also a good thing to know from early days. We are all on our own journey. We arrive at the same places as we go along but in my case I really took a circuitous path. So getting some kind of actual music training would be the first thing and seeking out harp players to teach me early on would have been the two things I'd have done differently. I have so oved the instrument and what can be done with it, and I am a very stubborn person, these have been my biggest assets. Desire and determination. ---------- Reverbnation Facebook Youtube Last Edited by jbone on Jul 17, 2018 1:39 PM
RyanMortos 1694 posts Jul 17, 2018 10:05 AM	-I probably would have found a professional teacher sooner. I learned a bunch via YouTube the first few months but would have learned more faster had I gotten serious instead. I would have bought less "teach yourself" books, DVDs, etc that never really worked for me. -I probably would have started a decade or more earlier in my life, lol. -I probably would have started on chromatic harmonica sooner. -I would have gone to SPAH convention the first year I heard about it instead of waiting another year. The first 2 or 3 times were very worthwhile. -I would have waited to buy an amp, mic, & pedals until I needed them for outside the home use. The amp and mic I bought years ago, while fine, probably wouldn't be the same I'd buy today after playing more years. Matter of fact the HarpGear amp I bought has been since discontinued, lol. -I would have liked to have started to play along with sheet music when I started to strengthen my timing and reading much earlier. -I would have liked to start to try to identify song keys and maybe even some transcribing when I first started instead of waiting till almost a decade into it. Or at least ear training sooner. -I would have started singing at jams sooner. -I started playing piano about a year after harmonica, I would have probably started that sooner. Probably would have started with a teacher on that sooner as well. -I still haven't really dug into customizing my own harmonicas despite being on multiple workshops, getting tool sets, and DVDs on the subject. I would have started that sooner. I just keep saying maybe next weekend, lol. -I would do a better job meeting musicians at jams and getting their number to try to put together a band. I wish I realized at the start that I'd have to put together my first band & it wouldn't just happen cause I got good enough. I'm waiting too long to try to get a band/gigs together. -I've psyched myself out on going to non specifically-blues jams or jams led by harmonica players. Wish I started going to more types of jams around the same time. ---------- ~Ryan See My Profile for contact info, etc.
Rontana 484 posts Jul 17, 2018 11:59 AM	Most helpful was putting in the practice time. By "practice time," I mean focusing on specific things, setting aside plenty of time daily, and not just messing around. Don't get me wrong, mindless doodling is great . . . one of my favorite things. But, when you're working on learning anything, you have to take it at least a little seriously to progress. I learned almost exclusively via Adam's stuff, and it was the best harp-related money I ever spent. One thing I might do different is purchase fewer harps initially. When starting off you can make do with just about any decent C harp. Later on you'll try different brands, and settle on what you like best. Other than that, I would have probably practiced more scales . . . forward and backward. Get stuff like that down and you can improvise all over the place ---------- "Humor is always the first victim of political correctness." Last Edited by Rontana on Jul 17, 2018 12:01 PM
nacoran 9909 posts Jul 17, 2018 12:56 PM	I wish I'd started younger, and I wish that when I was taking music theory way back in school I played harmonica. Theory helps a lot and I think I'd have it more integrated with my playing. That said, I'm glad I didn't take harmonica lessons in school. Unfortunately, schools tend to focus very heavily on sheet music and much less on playing by ear. When I played baritone I was discouraged from working ahead in the book or from doing much besides exactly what they wanted. That killed my drive to play. Ideally, I would have liked to have picked up harmonica as a kid and been good enough by college to use it for learning theory. I'd still like to learn to sight read harmonica (I can do it for baritone and a bit for singing). I'd like to have the extra cash to drop on some lessons too... but at this stage in my playing I know what else I want to learn. Maybe I just had bad instrument teachers. ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads) First Post- May 8, 2009
Sarge 690 posts Jul 17, 2018 1:26 PM	I learned from my GrandDad and my Dad. I wouldn't change anything! ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
SuperBee 5491 posts Jul 17, 2018 2:22 PM	I’d have approached it as a musical instrument rather than harmonica. And I’d have gone to a teacher straight off the bat. Or at least as soon as I realised I actually want to learn to play. I would also get more involved with pentatonic scales as soon as I was able to move fluently around the harp. And I would not have read that book which told me blow bends were difficult and would take years to master and possibly I’d never be able to do it, because that was too easy to believe and so I didn’t go there for so long Last Edited by SuperBee on Jul 17, 2018 2:25 PM
kham 151 posts Jul 17, 2018 9:20 PM	Get a teacher. I agree with Rontana. Practice with intent and push beyond your comfort. The only way to grow.
the_happy_honker 304 posts Jul 18, 2018 3:34 AM	The worst thing you can do is stop playing. According to a scientific study I just pulled out of somewhere smelly, 99.65% of people who begin harp don’t continue with it. If you’re still at it five years from now, that is a major accomplishment. This isn’t slavery. Keep it fun, keep yourself motivated, keep trying new things, keep putting the harp in your mouth. You can’t play it if you don’t have it on you. I have at least one harp in my pocket or on my belt everywhere I go. Miraculously, I’m still married and I still have friends. So don’t stress out on what you might be doing wrong. Doing wrong things is an unavoidable consequence of learning. In doing one thing right, you’re going to be neglecting something else or doing else wrong. Oh, well. Things I did right (for me): I got my first harp without a clear idea of what I wanted to do with it. Luckily, I found MBH early and got pointed in the right direction in terms of what good playing sounds like and that good playing was an achieveable goal. I focused early on sounding good, that is, breathing, tone and vibrato. Adam's long, slow notes is a key exercise. Acoustic tone is king. I resisted the temptation to collect gear (aside from harps) to compensate for my shortcomings. I learned both tongue blocking and lip pursing. I learned how to make basic adjustments (gapping, proper assembly) to the harp and then how to improve overblow performance. Happy honking to you!
the_happy_honker 305 posts Jul 18, 2018 4:09 AM	One thing I would do differently is record myself more often. I discovered the dictation app on my phone a few months ago and it is a very handy way to get immediate feedback on my playing. Cool ideas don't get lost either.
One Palm John 45 posts Jul 18, 2018 5:35 AM	Hey all, these are some great answers! Already some patterns are starting to appear. Maybe once this thread dies I'll post the most common answers. I can say at least one thing I'd do differently is to spend the (surprisingly short) time to nail the 3 draw whole step using the exercises here: http://www.harpsurgery.com/beefing-up-those-bends-3-draw-bends/ It would have saved me a lot of time that I wasted avoiding songs with that note. I think I built it up in my mind as this very difficult technique that would take months to really get, and that I would probably get it from just playing, praciticing and improvising, through osmosis maybe. In actuality 6 months later the whole step on the 3 draw still sounded like ass. Less than a week of dedicated practice later however it is now a useful tool in my belt. Anyone else? What would you do differently? More data points please! Last Edited by One Palm John on Jul 18, 2018 5:35 AM
jbone 2633 posts Jul 18, 2018 8:26 AM	Over a lot of years there were times I just couldn't play for a while. Also there were times I just had to back off for a while. The human mind though is an amazing thing. It will process and reprocess information and make things happen even when you aren't aware. After a break, many times I would find a different better way to play something or have a whole new riff at my fingertips. So if you are taking the long view- for me the rest of my life- you can afford some breaks here and there which will let your subconscious mind process things and give you aHA moments along the way. ---------- Reverbnation Facebook Youtube
IaNerd 45 posts Jul 18, 2018 8:56 AM	I wish I had not spent 40+ years on Richter diatonic.
Littoral 1620 posts Jul 18, 2018 9:38 AM	A comprehensive program like Barretts would have addressed a lot of issues. Good harps are important to sort out the difference between what you can do and the harp can do. I would suggest Special 20's to learn on and then gravitate to other options depending on musical directions. Learning to work on harps is also REALLY important. Don't wait. Just do tuning, plate flatten and gapping. That basic work would have taught me a lot about how the harp works, saved me $ and helped me to play better with working harps. Last Edited by Littoral on Jul 18, 2018 9:38 AM
Andrew 1796 posts Jul 18, 2018 11:00 AM	Start young. Start on the right path. Work hard. Don't stop. Don't switch horses midstream.
JInx 1379 posts Jul 18, 2018 12:33 PM	Even if you wanted, you could never do anything different. As Baron d’Holbach surmised “-Man’s life is a line that nature commands him to describe upon the surface of the earth, without his ever being able to swerve from it, even for an instant.”
wolfkristiansen 414 posts Jul 18, 2018 1:33 PM	"In your journey what practices, ideas or habits were the most impactful on your playing and understanding of the harp?" Hi One Palm John-- Your question as posed is difficult to answer. It depends on your answers to bigger questions-- What is your experience, if any, with other instruments? What is your style of learning (do you read music? are you a sight learner? are you an ear learner?). Can you improvise, or do you need note by note instructions? It depends also on your musicality (sensitivity to, knowledge of, or talent for music-- Merriam-Webster). My guess is that you would get even more helpful answers if you shared some of that with the forum. I acknowledge musicality is hard to self-assess. That said, I like what Spderyak said: "I would concentrate more on rhythm and timing". If you intend to play blues, rhythm and timing is a wonderful thing to focus on. Blues, like all black-originated music, is rhythmic in its own special way-- funk, syncopation, etc. European music is rhythmic in its own white way. (Don`t jump on me, the rest of you). Cheers, wolf kristiansen
One Palm John 46 posts Jul 19, 2018 8:24 AM	@JInx ""A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills." True of course, but by looking at people who've done what we hope to do and asking them what was most and least effective - I think we can learn a thing or two. @wolf I'm not specifically asking for me to be honest, although I was hoping to learn something. I was interested if there were any correlations between people's experiences, any ideas, values or thought processes that were particularly effective. Ideas that might not be well-known or common. Human beings aren't that difference in the macro, as I think is evidenced by the similarities in some of the answers.
The Iceman 3627 posts Jul 19, 2018 8:49 AM	I would never have bought into the old paradigm "It takes YEARS to master bending techniques"! ---------- The Iceman
barbequebob 3527 posts Jul 19, 2018 9:47 AM	My biggest regret was not learning the business side of music much earlier than I did. When the leader of a band I was in left for another, more high profile band, the rest of the band looked to me as the bandleader, but at the time, looking back, I clearly wasn't ready and didn't take the time to learn the business aspect and so that band quickly fell apart. I wish I had taken more time to ask questions about the business side as it would've better prepared me as a pro for both a bandleader as well as a sideman. Now, there are are some software packages and academic courses for this but I had to learn it all the hard way. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
hvyj 3611 posts Jul 19, 2018 10:54 AM	There are so many more resources available now than when I started to play, there's a whole lot I would do differently if I were starting out NOW. But that would not be an apples to apples comparison since the resources available now were not available to me when I started. So...two things: 1) Practicing long tones on a regular basis. This helps develop and improve everything dramatically. 2) Playing ET harps. I don't have the best ear anyway, but my ear improved significantly when I started playing ET harps exclusively about 10 ears ago. Almost all of my playing is with other musicians and this put me in much better tune with the musicians I was playing with and was enormously helpful to my musical development.
The Iceman 3630 posts Jul 19, 2018 10:58 AM	+1 to hvyj regarding LONG TONES....folk wouldn't need teachers nearly as much if they just understood and used LONG TONES to help self discover and self correct problems with technique, tone, pitch, etc. Wish someone had told me that one oh, about 40 years ago... ---------- The Iceman
One Palm John 47 posts Jul 20, 2018 1:37 AM	Hey hvyj, can you expand on why using ET harps was beneficial for you? Do you mostly play melodies? As for long tones you mean playing a legato style? I.e. holding notes and ensuring your tone, pitch and control is strong throughout?
AppalachiaBlues 194 posts Jul 20, 2018 5:47 AM	Most impactful on my journey: 1. sticking to regular practice - even just 5 minutes a day 2. playing with guitarists, and eventually joining a band 3. switching to Seydel Session Steels If I could do it over again: 1. invest the time and effort to learn to sing well 2. I would not take the 10-year break that I did 3. learn the basics of music theory earlier in my journey Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Jul 20, 2018 5:50 AM
The Iceman 3632 posts Jul 20, 2018 7:16 AM	In my classroom, Long Tones does not mean playing legato. Long Tones means, how long can you sustain one note? 10 seconds? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? both on the inhale and exhale? (Notes created with bending technique are also included). Once you can "hang in the air" any single note created any way for up to 30 seconds, it gives you plenty of time to play and actually LISTEN CLOSELY to the sound you create. Now, in real time, one may make adjustments, focus on where the tongue is placed, start to eliminate unnecessary muscle tensions, unbundle muscles, and raise one's awareness of what is really going on and how best to control it. This approach alone eliminates the need for a teacher in so many areas as well as show one how to self educate and improve pitch, tone, vibrato, and control. ---------- The Iceman
dougharps 1787 posts Jul 20, 2018 7:50 AM	I learned what I could given what was available at the time. There were no teachers and when I switched to diatonic from chromatic around age 20, only the Glover book. I was self taught on both chromatic and diatonic, and did not study classic blues harp style until years later. I tried to copy bluesy rock guitar lines when learning, and it affected how my playing developed. I briefly played harp in a band in my late 20s until it broke up and people moved away. I then took time off of my harp hobby for family after we had kids. I resumed playing 15 years later when they were older. I began playing with others at jams and sitting in with local bands who had heard me play at jams or sitting in with other bands. Then I was in a couple groups, more rock and folk focused. My playing was not (is not) traditional blues harp style, though I have added elements of this. I did a little local studio work after being recommended to the studio by musicians who knew me. As more harmonica info became available with the internet via Harp-L, I began to study more and develop my playing. Eventually I read about and attended a SPAH in 2008, then 2010. I went to the second and third Hill Country Harmonica events. I later went to HarmoniCollege events and the Harmonica Collective. I have been to more SPAHs. The internet made me aware of these events and offered information to study that was invaluable to my learning. YouTube offered more info. My rate of learning greatly increased as the internet developed resources. There is a lot that I could not have done differently in learning harp due to available harp knowledge being limited, and no teachers or workshops of which I was aware during the early years of playing. We are the product of our times, and exposure to music and information is critical. I learned to play primarily on my own and also learned to repair harps on my own. I would not change that playing harmonica and making music was recreation for me, not a task to undertake or a way to make a living. My focus was earning a living and having a family, not becoming a musician or performer. My learning harmonica (at first on chromatic) was fun, and I did not try to apply the grade school/middle school music class approach that I had learned on clarinet and in chorus. The way music had been taught turned me off to using that approach. The visceral learn by doing and by ear approach was what appealed to me about playing harmonica. It was only in the last 10 years that I revisited music theory and notation. It has been helpful to my playing and since my learning is self driven and not imposed, it has been great. When more harmonica information became readily available, I pursued it. I still do. Learning doesn't end. There are no rules as to how to learn harp. You can commit to a certain learning structure or not. You can get one teacher, or several, or go to workshops. You are in charge. You can study with a teacher and work to sound like certain players of classic blues, or all of them, or none. You do not have to pursue blues, you can figure out how to adapt harp to any genre of music you enjoy. You are in charge. Pursue the music you like. With the availability of harp teachers in person, on YouTube, via Skype, and at workshops there are great opportunities for learning that will likely help you progress faster than being solely self taught or using only books. I would suggest checking out the free info for a while, then getting some help from skilled instructors. You are in charge. The only changes I might have made in my approach would be to start listening to classic blues harp earlier and start singing earlier. In terms of advice, have fun, use the info that is now available to build skills (much more is available now!), study and learn at whatever rate suits your level of interest and don't stress out when challenged by technique obstacles, play with others whenever you have the opportunity, learn to sing at least some, and, oh, have fun! ---------- Doug S.
One Palm John 48 posts Jul 20, 2018 8:11 AM	Hey Doug, couldn't agree more with the have fun idea, especially when that's paired with a regular dip into the solidly not-fun-but-very-useful territory of hard practice. It's good to keep an eye on both playing and practicing, the difference between which I once heard described as enjoying and sweating. A couple of people have mentioned singing earlier, why is that? Off topic; what harp/vocal songs do you like?
Sundancer 236 posts Jul 20, 2018 8:13 AM	Damn, this is an informative thread. Thanks!
SuperBee 5498 posts Jul 20, 2018 8:34 AM	Singing? Breathing, ear training, memorisation, phrasing, control But also, singing gives you opportunities to lead and thats different to playing as a side player. I like both but I’m glad i get to do both and not locked into just one role
Grey Owl 951 posts Jul 20, 2018 10:04 AM	Nicely put Doug. Though I think if I had been exposed to classic blues when I started playing it would have put me off.....Just too darn good and unreachable! OnePalmJohn If you mean personally sing and play I really like to do this on anything that grabs me melody wise be it Blues, Rock, Pop or Indie etc., and is in my vocal range which is steadily diminishing :)(: YouTube
dougharps 1788 posts Jul 20, 2018 12:35 PM	Regarding "Why singing?" I think SuperBee said it VERY well. To me, the "breathing" part relates to using all your lungs and not just the top part. It builds tone and diaphragm vibato/tremolo, whatever you want to call it... Harp and singing help each other along. Singing also gives you another role in the group. I was invited to join a band and asked about singing some. I was reluctant, having not sung for public performance since 8th grade, 40 years before. I sang a couple at a rehearsal and was told to expect to sing one or two per set. My range was very limited and still is, though more frequent use has expanded my range a little. I choose songs with a range and key choice that allows me to sound decent. I try to avoid songs in keys that would strain my voice at the top or bottom of my range. I am pretty good at being on pitch vocally and have gained confidence by continuing to sing, sometimes fronting. There have been many positive comments, even from established singers I respect, which is rewarding. My goal is adequacy in performance with no expectation of becoming a really good vocalist, though I keep working on it. I came to it late in the game, and wish I had sung earlier. I now enjoy singing quite a bit. As SuperBee noted, it gives you more opportunities. With regard to listening to classic blues, it can teach you a lot, even without studying tabs, memorizing, etc. Don't feel that you have to learn to play each note and sound just like the recording. If you try to learn it all you may be intimidated. I found it worthwhile to listen and enjoy, and pick out parts of classic blues harp tracks that sounded cool to me so that I could add them to what Norton Buffalo called "bag of tricks". I suggest to those early in the journey that if you hear something you like, then learn to at least come close to playing it so you can use it when you think it fits what you are playing. Revisit it periodically until you are satisfied with the sound. Also, music affects you on an unconscious level, and things that you have heard a few times tend to show up in your playing without really working at it. If you immerse yourself in the music you will learn things about playing blues unconsciously. ---------- Doug S. Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 20, 2018 12:36 PM
hvyj 3613 posts Jul 20, 2018 3:06 PM	@OPJ: Long tones are essentially what Iceman describes. But there are a few variations. Search for “Long tones saxophone” on YouTube and you’ll get a lot of useful information. Do I play mostly melodies? No. But I don’t do the choo-choo train thing, either. I play multiple positions and various styles of music in addition to blues. I learned a long time ago that you can fit harp to a much wider variety of music if you don’t wank on chords very much. This is because you can’t “build” chords on harp—we are stuck with the primitive chords and chord fragments available on the instrument which don’t necessarily fit the various music that you otherwise have the notes available to play. Anyway, almost all of my playing is with other musicians. I don’t have the best ear anyway, and I am able to better hear what notes fit if I am playing an ET harp since I am in better tune with the rest of the band. I don’t see any advantage in playing a harp that puts me in better tune with myself when I play chords but out of tune with the musicians I am playing with. It’s harder to identify good notes by ear as you play. A couple of examples: dominant 7th (5 draw in second position). Different compromise tunings flat or sharp this note. I don’t play any instrument except harp and I’d been playing compromise tuned harps for decades. When I switched to ET, I realized that until then, I never really knew what this note was actually supposed to sound like, which, among other things, threw off my intonation of the 2 draw whole step bend which is the same note an octave lower. So my ear got better because the notes I was playing were truer and I was able the better hear which notes sounded right. Ocassionally at jams someone gets the idea that “dueling harmonicas” sound cool. I don’t think so, but I’ll go along with it. All my performing harps have been professionally tuned to A442 pure ET (which puts me in tune with other musicians tuned to A440) and I have them re-tuned when necessary. If I am playing with another harp player who is playing, say, a Marine Band, I sound in dramatically better tune with the band—I mean it’s really noticeable. Sure, sometimes this is because the other guy is just a bad player who does not intonate well, but not always. So...I hear what I’m playing in relation to what the band is playing much better using an ET harp so it’s easier for me to make better note choices playing by ear. My ear improved when I started playing ET. Now if you just play by yourself or primarily repeat blues licks you’ve learned by rote or if you are into the choo-choo train thing, it may not make much difference. But if you are playing scales and arpeggios or if you regularly play in positions above third, I think one progresses faster on an ET harp. But, YMMV. Last Edited by hvyj on Jul 20, 2018 3:33 PM
robbert 474 posts Jul 20, 2018 4:24 PM	There are times when I wish I had more theory, better skills, or that I had developed an interest in learning music at an early age, but this hasn’t been my path. After dabbling in harmonica as a teen, I really didn’t get serious until I had already entered my forties. So, for the last 17 or 18 years, I have made music my art and craft, and harmonica my primary instrument. I’ve covered a lot of territory, but there is so much more, it’s like looking out over an ocean. Anyway, everyone finds their place. One thing that has stood me in good stead, since I began as a teenager, is learning to listen to music. Especially, for me, jazz. I had to be shown how to distinguish the different instruments playing and their roles in the music, and then the different styles and expression, or voices, of various musicians, but once I began to get that, then I could live inside the music much more, and it was this inspiration that caused me to eventually take up playing. It was the only way to scratch that particular itch. Why the harmonica? That’s another story.
Martin 1485 posts Jul 20, 2018 5:13 PM	I would never have taken up the harmonica.
robbert 475 posts Jul 20, 2018 8:30 PM	Yeah, for sure. But it’s harder to practice sax or guitar while driving.
dougharps 1790 posts Jul 20, 2018 8:46 PM	@Martin My recollection from videos is that you play well. Is there a rationale behind your surprising and cryptic reply? ---------- Doug S.
Andrew 1797 posts Jul 21, 2018 4:57 AM	Yeah, I wish I'd sung at a young age - I'd have a wider vocal range and better technique. I'm a bass baritone who struggles with anything above D4. I have a friend who is the same but who was a Westminster abbey choirboy when young and he can hit G4 if he has to, well, when he hasn't had too many cigarettes! He kept it up singing in barbershop groups as a teenager and a student and after. That would have been as a bass, but in addition he sings elsewhere and freewheels it because he has no fear. Last Edited by Andrew on Jul 21, 2018 9:39 AM
jbone 2637 posts Jul 21, 2018 12:56 PM	I was born a performer, it just took half my life to really get to it. At least with music. From age 17 I was like someone lost who struggled mightily- but with very little structure- to learn to play well. Finally in my mid 30's I made enough progress to be invited to sit in here and there and to join a couple of bands. Ultimately the first band I co-founded with 2 other guys needed me to step up and sing. Which I did, badly, for years. I sounded good but I was damaging my vocal cords. At the same time blowing out reeds frequently was costing me some serious $$. A turning point was taking lessons from a voice coach, long enough to get my depth of breathing like singers and pro harp players do. The flood of information that came with the internet was a big deal too, but I had a hard time being a student until my late 40's. Even then I was not so great at actually doing the work, like scales, accurate bends, etc. A few of my peers took me under their wing and showed me some stuff until it finally sunk in. A key breakthrough was into 3rd position, then revisiting 2nd and 1st, even looking at 5th a bit. For whatever reason this opened a vast awakening in me. I made some great progress. Another big leap was when my wife began making HER progress on guitar, writing songs, and figuring out guitar parts on original songs along with her own twist on some more traditional material, and finding her voice. I found I was adapting to her style more and more easily. If I had it to do again I would have taken piano or drums, something truly musical. This may have shown my deficiency in learning and I may have been able to deal with that to my advantage, and the learning process could have taken a different and more functional path. Even before that, if I had asked my granddad to teach me to play harmonica, I may have missed the more gritty and sordid events that came along later, in my teens and 20's. Whoever said it though was right. Every move we make may be destiny and every event teaches us something we need to know to live. Although I still don't use the usual tools most musicians use, I still do a very credible job and Jawbone and Jolene is a success, as are we both individually as musicians. To me though this is synergy, which is when the totality of something is greater than the sum of its individual parts. ---------- Reverbnation Facebook Youtube Last Edited by jbone on Jul 21, 2018 1:00 PM
Barley Nectar 1362 posts Jul 21, 2018 4:02 PM	Join the HS choir like my music teacher wanted me to. Learn to play piano. (read music) Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jul 21, 2018 4:04 PM
Andrew 1798 posts Jul 22, 2018 2:27 AM	Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again, especially if you want to understand theory - get a keyboard!
Martin 1486 posts Jul 22, 2018 5:41 AM	Thank you Doug, you´re kind -- but I find the harmonica a rather frustrating little instrument: expensive, difficult, limited, and mostly regarded scornfully by "real" musicians. (Sadly, they usually have a point there.) If one is happy just repeating a few basic blues riffs I guess it´s OK, but when you venture outside of that domain troubles start to brew. There are ways around some of them, we know that, but ultimately not satisfactory. (For me it´s too late to quit now so I´ll have to stick it out.) --------------------- @Martin My recollection from videos is that you play well. Is there a rationale behind your surprising and cryptic reply? ---------- Doug S.
Andrew 1800 posts Jul 23, 2018 5:31 AM	I think Martin has a point. Think you're a serious musician? By the time you've bought 12 customised harps, you've spent as much money as if you'd bought a serious musical instrument, and yet all you've really got is a polished turd, on which you're mostly going to be playing the same blues riffs that were played on a dime tin sandwich 80 years ago. You can make a comb and toilet paper out of gold and silk, but you ain't gonna be Leon Goossens. One or two virtuosos may be able to get more from it, but then one or two people may be able to ride backwards on a unicycle from New York to LA. Last Edited by Andrew on Jul 23, 2018 5:36 AM
dougharps 1791 posts Jul 23, 2018 8:06 AM	IMHO I agree that keyboard is useful in learning/visualizing theory. Theory is helpful in playing with others. Theory has contributed positively to my playing. I will state my belief once again that music theory is an explanation of music used to communicate and conceptualize about music. Music came first. Music comes first. Much of the historical folk/roots/Americana music was based on passed-on unwritten traditions played on folk instruments. Blues is part of this. Analysis via music theory was done after the fact. Often standard musical notation struggled to capture the living music in the net of theory and notation. Music is living and dynamic. Theory is a useful tool built using structured language abstractions to describe dynamic processes. Theory is not music. I like the sound of harmonica played well in music to which it is well suited. There is a long history of harmonica adding a special element to some types of music. I enjoy Folk/Roots/Americana music and the role that well played harmonica can fulfill in those genres. I am not speaking only of music by players with world class chops, top of the heap musical gymnasts, nor of bottom level sloppy chord suckers, just decently played journeyman level harp that is well suited to some kinds of music. If playing that kind of music is beneath the attentions of "serious musicians", then so be it. If someone is more concerned about being a "serious musician" than playing well and entertaining others in the types of music that harmonica fits, I don't care. If players want to stretch into non-traditional genres, that is fine with me. I tend to stick with music that supports the positive aspects of harmonica, but I occasionally push the boundaries into other genres and generally my efforts are well received. The harmonica community spends too much time and energy hand wringing about whether harmonica is a real instrument for "serious musicians" or (heaven forbid!) a toy. Who cares? I hear lots of mediocre guitar banging and no one says guitar is not for "serious musicians." I hear lame sax wailing, too, as well as great playing. I have heard woeful trombone and also extraordinary jazz trombone performances. Is trombone for "serious musicians"? The jazz program at the University of Illinois has some fantastic jazz musicians. It is the level of playing that makes the difference. (Note: I can only stand to listen to jazz with a recognizable chord structure.) Well played harmonica contributes a lot to some kinds of music. As to other kinds, that is up to the opinions of the listeners and the level of the players. "Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean that it should." (This statement was made to me by a very good sax and guitar player who is a jazz teacher, when I was discussing harmonica being used in jazz and classical music by some players. Toots was acknowledged by him as good...) I have heard harmonica used for classical music and for jazz. A few top players can hang with other "serious musicians" in these genres and many can't. So what? Why should we agonize about it? If it bothers someone that harmonica is not for "serious musicians" then they should decide to play a different instrument! If some "serious musicians" express disdain for harmonica, STUFF the pretense of those self designated "serious musicians." Music is NOT a competition. It is an art-form. If the audience enjoys the harp playing in the music, that is what matters. I like community made music that brings people together around human themes. I am not a fan of sterile abstract exercises displaying nothing more than a deep knowledge of theory. In my opinion, being a "serious musician" often indicates a tendency toward abstract theoretical wanking and not playing enjoyable music. Harmonica is what it is. Even chromatic harmonica played well has limitations making some keys really awkward. Other instruments have their own limitations. If some say harmonica is just a toy and not an instrument for "serious musicians," I don't care! I like the music this toy makes when played well. I think that with some effort and perseverance to learn to play harmonica it can contribute a unique sound and emotion to some kinds of music. I love harmonica and the music it makes, despite its inherent limiting factors that can only be overcome by extended technique (much of which is beyond my skill level). If you play an instrument reasonably well and entertain the audience, that is enough. I am sorry that the elitism and scorn of some musicians has a negative impact upon some musicians who play harmonica. Or should I leave out "musicians" and just say "harmonica players?" NO! If you make music well with others, EVEN playing a harmonica, EVEN if you don't know theory and do it all by ear, then you are a musician. Seriously... ---------- Doug S.
Rontana 485 posts Jul 23, 2018 8:27 AM	Excellent thoughts throughout, Doug. This could well serve as "The Harmonica Manifesto." I especially like this passage: "The harmonica community spends too much time and energy hand wringing about whether harmonica is a real instrument for "serious musicians" or (heaven forbid!) a toy. Who cares?" Exactly. Playing the harmonica makes me happy. For myself, and all those who experience a similar joy, that should be the only opinion that matters. ---------- "Humor is always the first victim of political correctness."
T-bay 6 posts Jul 23, 2018 8:29 AM	Spot on Doug! I love a wide range of music but a lot of it is fairly basic in form, early blues, rock, punk bit it MOVES me, when I play certain songs with the band it is like a drug. Then I can listen to the most amazingly technical classical or jazz music and it leaves me absolutely cold. Everyone is different of course but the snobbish idea of some music being ‘better’ than other music is rubbish imho. It’s just better to that listener.
Fil 384 posts Jul 23, 2018 5:38 PM	Good one Doug. I had to look up Leon Goossens. Don’t want to be him. I want to be James Harman, with a bit of James Cotten blended it. ‘To each his own’, but that’s not a favored sentiment these days. ---------- Phil Pennington
jbone 2642 posts Jul 23, 2018 8:19 PM	Doug, that's 100%. Thank you! As far as it being "too late" to not go forward with harmonica, I say if you don't respect it- and your future with it- why continue? As far as getting no respect, what are we all, Rodney Dangerfield? I'm not. I have gotten those uncaring comments and questions, who hasn't over 45 years of effort? They have always driven me to do better. My wife has challenged me to step somewhat outside of blues into roots/rock/Americana and find ways to put a harp part where there was not one, and make it fit and sound sweet. I'm a gut player who has by osmosis learned some theory. General statements about competence re: knowledge lead me back to the guys who first used a C harp on a G song. And later on a D song. Did my heroes have music schooling? Likely not. Bottom line, do I play for my peers? Or for the public, who really like what they hear without hard analysis of how I get from point A to point Z? And first and foremost because I love the sound and the idea that I can DO THAT? Music and travel kill prejudice. Last year we killed us some prejudice over a good swath of the USA. Next year we'll hopefully be back on the road, playing from the gut, killing more prejudice. Right now we're killing some where we are. If you enjoy the journey, and see mileposts going past, and people give you some reason to believe what you do is pleasing, you can be happy knowing you're on the right road. If it feels good do it. If not there are lots of other hobbies out there. ---------- Reverbnation Facebook Youtube
One Palm John 49 posts Jul 24, 2018 1:44 AM	Great post Doug. I think a big part of why people might wince at these accusations of the harmonica not being a "serious instrument" is simply because so often music is an art of collaboration. For those earlier in their journey it's of course going to be disheartening to learn that the world they are just beginning to enter has pockets occupied by people who don't respect their choice of instrument as being legitimate. That's an understandable concern to me. Is the harmonica a toy? I think just as much as with guitar, sax or piano it depends on the person using it. Not all instruments are equal, some are more adaptable to a wider range of musical genres than others. Piano vs trumpet for instance. If your goal is to play across the widest range of generes possible then a harmonica is probably not your best choice. That said, there's a lot of other worthy goals you might focus on. If you can move a person's soul with the sound, even your own, then it's a legitimate instrument in my book.

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