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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Hello! And help with a new Suzuki.
Hello! And help with a new Suzuki.
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Lipz
1 post
Jun 20, 2018
10:54 AM
Dear friends!

Hello from Brazil! I’m 31, and a real newbie in harmonica world. It’s nice to be here!

I was looking for a different instrument to play, and remembered of a harmonica my grandfather gave me when I was a teenager, a Hering Master Blues in C. I remember to be with him when he bought it to me, but I can’t remember context, or why my GF was in a musical instruments store.

Since I didn’t know how to play it, I didn’t care much for it. But it was nice to take it in my hands, and it brought me some fond memories! :)

Sooo…I’m on day 6 of practicing by myself, with help from web pages, forum reading and YT videos (a special thanks to Mr. Gussow for being so kind in sharing his knowledge). I can play single notes, Oh! Susanna! was kind of easy, and a few licks I got from the web (maybe 3 or 4). Now I’m trying bending, and 4D has been really nice to me. 1D comes out sometimes… 2D, 3D and 6D not so much.

Also, trying to learn rhythmic playing the 12 bar blues.

Now, I’m thinking this Hering is a little stiff, It demands too much breathing force on upper register (6 and up) both on blowing and drawing.

A good opportunity to buy Suzukis appeared. A store near me has some models on sale, and so they are cheaper than expected: Promasters, Olives, Manjis and Fire Breaths.

Since I’m quite new to this world, I kindly ask for your help!

Is this a good time to upgrade? Will there be a noticeable difference for a beginner?

I know there is plenty of info on this harps, but I’m still confused, and since I cannot test them, I’m kinda lost. All of them are tuned the same? I got interested for the Olives, but I heard that ET is not good for chords. What do you think? How about the Fire Breath or the others?

I must confess that although there is a lot of praise for the Manji, I’d like to try a harmonica that has a “rounder” shape (does that make sense?), and I read that the Promaster has a terrible taste.

Should I buy only one more instrument in C? Another key? Buy 2 different in same keys to learn the difference? Buy 2 of the same in different keys? Or 2 different models in different keys? More harmonicas? OMG!

I have so much questions! Please, help me with only one more: Do you think it is possible to learn to play the harmonica (and become a good player) only with material/without a teacher? I don’t mind paying for the material if it’s good, but from the guitar player’s standpoint, I’d say that a total beginner will have lots of difficulties by him/herself

Thank you for your attention! I hope to keep having fun with the harp!

All best!
jbone
2592 posts
Jun 20, 2018
12:02 PM
Hi Lipz, welcome to a great forum here. I am more a "by feel" player, but I do know that a better harmonica will make it easier to do bends and learn other fine points of playing.
I like the Manji of the ones you mention. It is a durable loud harp and you can order replacement reed plates if you kill a reed. I had a Promaster years ago in B, and never used it. Gave it away but it seemed to be a good harp. I have not tried an Olive. If you think the rounded full length covers will be better for you it may be a good idea to try one. All three of those models are well regarded.
I play in first or straight position, second or cross, and third or slant. This means I use all the notes on a harp. Breath control is vital to get bends and to get them without overstressing a reed. For years I ruined the draw 4 and draw 5 reeds on a harp mostly. I was very hard on a harp and they did not last long.

I finally learned to focus my breath by getting some voice lessons and exercises. This allows you to play more effectively and not damage reeds so much.

I suggest trying a new-better-harp in C since that is the key most lessons are written for. Later though you may want different keys if you plan to play with other musicians. I myself have a full set of keys for any song that may come up, except a few keys I just never use.

You can make progress with online lessons etc., but when you can you may want to find some people to play with. Learning musical manners and how the harmonica fits in a song with other players is a big plus in my opinion. If that is not possible then by all means, learn all you can on line.

You are at the beginning of what can be a very cool and fulfilling avocation. Please feel free to look at the reverbnation link below. It's my wife and long time music partner and me. We will play music until we are no longer able. It is soul food. It is wonderful.
I wish you success and joy I your adventure. Hope to see you here. You will find many knowledgeable players here who will gladly help you.
Peace.

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nacoran
9872 posts
Jun 20, 2018
1:17 PM
I more or less agree with J-bone, with the caveat that a fair number of Adam's lessons are on a Bb harp.

Hering is known for making pretty good harps, although with most brands they have a whole range from beginner harps up to pro-level. Since you are so new to playing it may be that some of the difficulty is from your embouchure, not the harp (or, of course, it could be the harp). The upper end of the harp requires adjusting your approach a little bit.

Manji's are definitely good harps, and eventually you will need more keys. They aren't 'round' like some other harps but they do have pretty smooth edges. I personally prefer full length covers on harps, but there are fewer choices. Suzuki has a few. Seydel has a bunch. I don't think Hohner has one until you get all the way up to the Meisterklasse.

It's up to you whether you want another C, but if you do get a second key, since you've already found Adam's lessons Bb would be a good second choice.

There is also a nice index to his videos. (It doesn't list keys though). Here is the link.

https://sites.google.com/site/veloroam/home/gussow-index

Don't just learn songs from tabs. Try to pick some out by ear. They don't have to be hard, just something for some ear training. Early on I found kids songs were pretty quick to learn since I already remembered the melodies really well.

As for the temperament, Equal Tuning or Just or Compromise, I'm not sure what you've got right now. Honestly it took a couple years before I could make a good guess as to whether I was listening to ET or Compromise, so don't worry about it too much, but if you get two new harps you might as well get one in ET and one in Compromise just so you can hear the difference for yourself.





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Nate
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SuperBee
5443 posts
Jun 20, 2018
4:04 PM
Nate: re “I don’t think Hohner has one until ...”, of course you’ve forgotten the very popular Golden Melody

Lipz: I mainly agree with both previous posts, except I’d consider an A harp also. It’s true about the Bb for many old Gussow lessons and it’s also true that much lesson material uses a C, and these are both very useful harps in general but the A harp is also used for many lessons and is probably the most commonly recorded harp, especially with guitar.
A, D and C are the ‘big 3’ harp keys.
nacoran
9877 posts
Jun 20, 2018
7:56 PM
Superbee, I kind of left out the GM, half on purpose. I know it is 'round' but it really isn't a very smooth instrument! I find it worse on the lips than the MBs. It's that little spot at the end of the protruding reed plates. Because the harp keeps going beyond the end of the reed plate that little spot creates a nasty little spike. (I suppose that's what fine grit sandpaper is for though.) I was actually wondering if Lipz harp might be the Hering model that has the same shape as the GM. The Hering site doesn't seem to be up anymore. I can't remember which it was, but one of their models had a front grill, I think screwed on, that looked really smooth.

Edit- The model with the front grill is the RK20... still can't find their jellybean


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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Jun 20, 2018 7:59 PM
shakeylee
749 posts
Jun 20, 2018
11:59 PM
You don’t mention a Suzuki harpmaster.
They are a great bang for the buck harp!

Hering is one of my favorite brands .
Since you already have a C,I would get another key next.

If you stick with this,you will probably want G,C,A,Bb &D.

My next choice would be A.

Good luck !!
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Lipz
2 posts
Jun 21, 2018
12:15 AM
Hello! Thank you for such a warm reception!

@ jbone: First of all, awesome music! Keep on rocking, until you can’t do it anymore! Congratulations!

I’m learning to control my breath. when I try to play by myself, or improvise a little, I get out of air quick. But with Oh! Susanna!, and the licks, I’m OK. Possibly, because these are short pieces and have a balance between blows and draws…

Thank you for the tips. The Manji is definitely on my watch. And I’ll probably get another C harp. And maybe another key (D or A). Which should I get first?

I’m already trying to find some harp players to meet and play a little… until then, I’ll follow your advice and keep learning everything I can!

@ nacoran: The Hering Master Blues is a little like the Hohner MB. It is sold on Amazon. Here is a link

https://www.amazon.com/Hering-Harmonicas-9020A-Diatonic-Harmonica/dp/B00MFQAP02/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1529561967&sr=8-1

The difference is that on older models like mine, the comb is plastic, and not wooden. All rest is the same!

I agree I may have some trouble with my embouchure on the upper end. I just find it odd how “stiff” the notes are, and how on one moment, the sound is good, and a second later, it is like the reed is stuck (especially on 6), and I have to blow and draw stronger. Also, it seems that this particular notes take longer to respond. Do you know any way I can be sure of it is my technique or the harp?

Although Adam’s lessons are mostly in Bb, do you think I’ll have much use of a Bb harp on songs? Is it a key that people use much?

I try to get things by ear (Oh! Susanna! was like this), but since I’m still getting familiar with how the notes are placed, sometimes I still get a little confused.

Also, about the tuning, I also think that I may not even notice the difference at first. And I really don’t know how the harps are tuned. I heard Manji is compromise and the Olive is ET, but I’m not sure about this.

@SuperBee I was thinking of getting a C and either an A or a D (I think 2 harps this month is OK. I was thinking about 3, but it would be a long stretch for my budget). I’m afraid of getting the A, and since it is lower than C, to have a hard time learning how to play it. On the other hand, D would also play A in 2nd position, right?

Do you think a D would be a good idea?

Also, if anyone has more inputs on the models, or have anything to say about the Fire Breath, that would be awesome! :)

Thanks again!!

All best!
Grey Owl
890 posts
Jun 21, 2018
4:16 AM
Welcome to the mad world of harmonicas, you're in for a lot of fun!

I haven't tried the Firebreath, but have tried the Promaster (don't like the metallic taste)The Hammond(again metal with full length covers but it is coated so the metallic taste is significantly reduced). It's a well built nice harp with a warmer sound than say the Manji which is quite harsh to my ears anyway. My favourite though is the Harpmaster. This harp is cheaper than the ones your considering but a has a lovely rounded tone with a bit of crackle and sounds great. I have quite a few of them and they have all been good Out of the Box. They have an ABS (plastic) recessed comb and are very comfortable to play.

As far as keys go I would certainly try another C for comparison and as mentioned above there are a lot of online lessons in this key. If you are going to follow Adam's lessons then Bb is a good idea and it's probably my favourite key (it just plays and feels good pitch wise and it is close enough to C on the lower side to not affect your'e new bending skills)You won't get as many songs to casually play along with in this key but it is popular for horn tunes.

A D harp will offer you lots of tunes to play (folk etc.,)and your right it will play song key A in 2nd position. It is close to C on the high side but it may feel tight to you bending wise and that may be a problem as you are already experiencing that with your C.

An A harp is used a lot in Blues Key of E playing 2nd position and it will feel low to you and will feel like your pulling more air in at first but it's a nice key.

I haven't tried the Olive but here is what Harp Buff Pat Missin says about it.

'Suzuki's latest 10-hole diatonic combines features from their best selling Promaster diatonic and from the comparatively recent Manji. The first thing that strikes you upon taking the harmonica from its nifty drawstring pouch is the beautiful metallic olive green finish of the covers - a finish applied directly to the stainless steel, so there is no paint to wear through or flake off (the picture above really doesn't do it justice - you really need to see one of these in person). The covers are shaped like those of the Promaster and feel both sturdy and comfortable in the hand and the mouth. The reedplates are 0.8mm plated brass with spot-welded phosphor bronze reeds, secured with 8 Phillips head screws. The comb is similar to that used on the Manji, a composite of resin and wood fibres, the only difference being that the Olive's comb is dark coloured.

The sample I have here is in the key of C and plays extremely well. Reed adjustment is very good and the close tolerances between reed and slot give a nice crisp response and bright clear tone. Bent notes require very little effort and all the overblows are right there straight out of the box - even the hole 7 overdraw was nice and strong, which I find to be rare on a stock harmonica. With very little tweaking, this could be a superb overblow instrument. It is tuned to a compromise temperament, with holes 2, 5 and 8 blow and 3, 5, 6 and 9 draw tuned a little lower, the rest of the harp tuned to equal temperament at around A=444Hz.'

Oops, thanks Superbee. Corrected.
Grey Owl
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jun 21, 2018 7:07 AM
SuperBee
5445 posts
Jun 21, 2018
6:18 AM
I know thats a typo in Owl’s post about the D harp in G, meant to say you’re right it plays second position in A

I’m not keen on Suzuki harps and also don’t have a good sample size so will keep my trap shut on that topic.

Agree with GreyOwl’s comments on keys, but I’d say don’t get too hung up on it because you’ll get CGDA eventually for sure and I’d suggest Bb is more use to me at least than G.
Depends what you want to play or play along with, whether you sing and if so which key suits your voice etc. these things may be a bit down the track though.

For me, i rarely use a G. I use A and D most of all, followed by C. I wouldn’t be without a G though. Or a Bb. Or F

Looking back i recall i acquired A and D at the same time. Both were Huang Silvertone Deluxe which were pretty good back then, maybe the equivalent of an Easttop 008K at the moment.
I had no idea those keys would prove to be ‘my’ keys back then, but they are the most common on blues records too, according to my survey.

I recall i was fascinated with differences.

D is a super key. I’m obsessed with D harps. I have a dozen at least. Sometimes i move between more than 2 harps of the same key but just have 2 Ds on the go lately.

Don’t tell anyone because its a secret but i love special 20s. I tell everyone I’m a marine band fan which is true and they are what i mainly use on stage but secretly i wish i had more great special 20s. I believe they are the greatest harp design of all but my bags are full of awesome marine bands. I just left it too late to discover how much i love special 20s, which wasn’t really until I’d been doing repairs for about a year and seen enough harps of various kinds.
Lipz
3 posts
Jun 21, 2018
8:52 AM
Hello! Thank you for your responses and to keep up with me!

@ shakeylee: Sorry! I think I was writing my answer as you posted yours, and I didn’t see it before.

I have read a lot of praise for the Harpmaster, and the price on this store is awesome, but they only have it in E and F. So, I don’t think this would be an option now, unless I get an instrument out of the “more common” keys.

People talk a lot of Hering here in Brazil, and I see that they are well regarded abroad as well. It’s a very traditional company, making harps since 1923. My harp is at least 15 years old. Maybe they improved their harps on the meantime, maybe I have a lemmon, or maybe I have a model that is not that good (and I don’t know about their other models, since their website is down. People also talk a lot about the Free Blues - a model below mine, and the 1923).

Yesterday I was watching a video from a brazilian player, who is an endorsee from Hering, and he said that the Free Blues is a little stiff. Maybe it is the same with the Master Blues. I think I’ll send him an e-mail and ask about this, and if there are some other good Hering harps.

Do you have any model you like on this brand?

I think I’ll have a go on the A harp for now!

@ Grey Owl: Thanks for the welcoming! It’s been a lot of fun so far, although a bit confusing. lol

I agree that the “safest” step for comparison sake is to get another C. I’m thinking about getting 2 harps, a C and an A. Both from the same model.

I think I know more blues songs in E than in D. Maybe an A harp, for now, is more recommended than a D harp?

Actually, this is just for now. There is also the possibility of getting the one I don’t get now in the future, right? I’m afraid at some point I’ll have more harmonicas than friends. :P

I’m still a little bit confused about tuning. Pat Missin says that the Olive is tune to Compromise on notes, and the other 13 are ET, right? How does that sound to you?

@ SuperBee: Agree with your take on keys. Actually, the C harp suits me well for now. But I listen to some songs that make me wanna learn how to play. And since I like to play along, or as close to the recording as possible, other keys might be interesting.

Hoochie Coochie Man in A. I read it is recorded in straight A, but Cross D is also possible. Not much help for my indecision.

I can’t sing to save my life… maybe I should take some lessons to learn and be able to sing with harping?

Speaking of the Easttop 008K, do you have any opinion on those?

From what I hear, I like D a lot. It sound SO good. But maybe it’s just because I’m more used to blues in D or A?

I’d love to try Special 20s and also MB, but I haven’t been able to find them at a price which I think is fair here in Brazil. Design wise, are the S20s different from the MB? From the looks, they seem to be so similar (to my lack of experience, at least).

But no problem! Your secret is well kept!

All Best!
ME.HarpDoc
326 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:39 PM
Lipz, your original post was about deals on Suzuki harps near you. I have the following Suzuki harp models: Harpmaster, Bluesmaster, Manji, Olive, and Hammond. Buesmaster and Olive have full covers, Harpmaster has recessed reed plates and Manji is sandwich construction. They all feel different to your lips and hands.

My favorite is probably the Olive, but I like them all. At this point in your learning, it probably doesn't matter very much how they're tuned. The more comfortable you are playing them, the more likely you'll play. The Bluesmaster and Harpmasters are the harps I first learned to bend and it was fairly easy. Manji is bendable but different. My Olive is similar to Manji but it's a Low F which is a little more difficult to bend anyway. You can't go wrong with any of these. I'd buy one style in A and another in D and see what you like.

Re: your question on SP20's vs. MB design, The most noticeable difference is the SP20 has recessed reed plates (Like the Harpmaster), which means your lips and tongue touch the comb, and the MB is like the Manji sandwich design, where your lips and tongue touch the edge of the reed plates.

Finally, I also have several Easttop 008K and 008S. I like them as well. Very good play OOTB (Out Of The Box) and great value. They are sandwich construction
SuperBee
5451 posts
Jun 22, 2018
9:02 PM
Hi Lipz,
Yes, hoochie coochie man as first recorded with little Walter on harp was in A and LW played an A harp. But others have played it cross harp style. It’s quite demanding of your 2 and 3 hole draw bends to play in 1sr position

Sp20 as ME.HarpDoc said. Same reeds as marine band, good comb, easy maintenance. Held together with screws, Sound is darker than a marine band thanks to the non-vented covers.

My experience with Suzuki is pretty slim. I had a Manji which was pretty good and I have done maintenance tasks on a few more for clients. They seem ok to me. I’m not using them but I wouldn’t be too upset if that’s all I had
I think the harpmaster/bluesmaster (same comb and reedplates, different covers afaik) seem a decent thing too. Probably around the sp20 standard perhaps? Not quite, in my estimation, but that may be just what I know.
The Lee Oskar is an ok option too but not sure if they’re available to you
shakeylee
752 posts
Jun 22, 2018
11:28 PM
brazil is very rich in harmonica talent.

keep your eyes open for indiara sfair,if she tours your town.she's a great harmonica player.
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Lipz
4 posts
Jun 24, 2018
11:29 PM
Hello! Thank you for your time and answers!! And I’m sorry I took too long to come back, but I have been away from the PC on the weekend, and I wouldn’t be able to properly write from my phone.

@ ME.HarpDoc: On saturday, I went on and took a chance on 2 Olives - C and D. Already told the seller that I’ll be back for the A in a month or so.

The harps are awesome, and much better than the Hering. They are easier to play, tighter sound, easier to bend (not that I’m a bend master), faster response, feel heavier, and they are just gorgeous. I’m still having to adapt to the footprint, but I think it’ll be easy.

I’m a little curious on the Hohners… They can be found here, but are a little more expensive. I’ll see if I can ask someone who’s traveling abroad to bring me one or two by the end of the year.

As to the Easttops… they can be bought fairly cheap directly from China. I may give them a go…

@ SuperBee: I got the Olive in D. My bends on the 2nd and 3rd holes aren’t perfect yet. On the C harp, 2D, I can get to F, but not to F#, so I still need to work on it. On 3D, I can get to A#, and that’s it…

Although the Olive is much smoother than the Hering, I still have difficulties with holes 6 and up, more with Draw. I have to polish my technique a lot before I can move on!

Unfortunately, Lee Oskar is not an option. I don’t think they have oficial representation in Brazil, and who imports their harps do it with very high prices.

Also, I should say that I have some kind of OCD. When I buy something from a specific model, others have to be from the same. So, it’ll bother me if I don’t have Olives on other keys. I promise to try leaving this behind and try new things!

@ shakeylee: Harps have been widely used in brazilian music throughout history, mostly chromatic, but some diatonic, as well. However, it does not translate in popularity of the instrument or variety of local manufacturers.

It’s not easy to find many models on stores. This is strange, since Hering, i.e., has a large catalog selection.

I got to know Indiara Sfair’s music this week, looking for some new harp music, but I didn’t know she was Brazilian! This is very nice to know!

She seems to be very good! I’ll try to attend a concert it she ever comes to town (I believe she’s living in the US now).

Can you guys recommend any song that’s good for a beginner to learn, or some blues standards/must know songs?

Thanks, again!

All best!
nacoran
9885 posts
Jun 25, 2018
7:48 AM
Bb plays a lot of horn lines nicely. If you sing at all you should check your singing range and find a harp that works well with songs you can sing. Bb happens to be my favorite key. It just happens to be the only spot in my range where I can comfortably decide if I want to sing most melodies high or low. Higher keys and I star not being able to sing them in my upper register. Lower keys and I can't get the low notes if I sing them low. Bb alone seems to give me two options!

A is good to play along with guitar players. They like playing in E a lot so A gives you second position.

I've got OCD too. I made a deal with myself that harmonicas don't count. Other stuff may have to match, may have to be super clean, but harmonicas don't have to follow the rules. Somehow I convinced myself that that was the rule and it worked. (Usually I don't do that well!) There are some benefits to having harps that don't match too. By having a mix of temperaments you can pick a key for a song based on whether you want to play the melody or play chords. Or you can alternate keys, so you could have a Sp20 in B and a Golden Melody in Bb... that way if you wanted to play a melody you for a song down in that range you could just grab the GM. If another song needs a chugging rhythm you could grab the Sp20. Or you could have your higher keys be ET for melodies and your lower harps be compromise for chords.

And... when you get to the point where you are up on a dark stage, having different models makes it much easier to grab the right key on the first try!

I don't know if you know about Bends. They were another Brazilian harmonica company. They didn't last too long though. (It was hard to search for them online... too many other hits for the words bends and harmonica out there.) They had a YouTube channel that featured a lot of Brazilian harmonica players. You guys have some real talent down there! The company is gone, but their Youtube channel is still up.

Here is one of their videos featuring Thiffany Harp and the Capone Brothers.



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Nate
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