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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Throat bending vs tongue bending
Throat bending vs tongue bending
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One Palm John
12 posts
Jun 20, 2018
10:19 AM
Hey all,

I've gone back to working on my bending basics for the last few days with an emphasis on keeping my tongue flat, in other words without using the K-spot that is often advised for beginner players. The tongue stays flat against the floor of the mouth, only shifting forwards and back horizontally.

I believe it's forming the same shape K-spot, only against the back of my throat, rather than the roof of my mouth.

I can't help but feel this mechanism of action is intimately associated with throat vibrato, if I bend all the way to the bottom and then slightly beyond I end up choking the note, a sort of tremolo effect maybe.

Super hard work, and not particularly interesting to practice, but a pitch app lets me practice with immediate visual feedback.

The tone is so much better than the k-spot tone, who else has worked this? Or uses this type of bending exclusively? Any tips?

Last Edited by One Palm John on Jun 20, 2018 10:20 AM
CarlA
955 posts
Jun 20, 2018
10:35 AM
“Throat bending” IMO should be an unnamed word, never to be uttered. Very similar to how the “white rabbits” was prohibited to be spoken by Butcher Bill in “Gangs of New York”
One Palm John
13 posts
Jun 20, 2018
10:48 AM
@CarlA Am I missing something? Why?
nacoran
9873 posts
Jun 20, 2018
1:24 PM
One Palm, there was a recent, kind of contentious thread about whether throat bending was a thing or not (actually, the main point of contention was the way the thread was started). I was arguing that although I usually bend with my tongue that I could in fact bend without my tongue, using something farther down in my throat. The other two camps- that it should never be done, and that it couldn't be done at all were being, imo, pretty pedantic.

CarlA, when you see someone with a low post count, please try to avoid interjecting some of the weirder stuff that might scare people off, at least without some explanation. One of the goals of the forum is, after all, to encourage people to participate.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
SuperBee
5442 posts
Jun 20, 2018
2:37 PM
It’s been a topic for a long time. Harpdude61 brought it up several times some years ago and discussion grew very heated on occasions. More recently Groyster1 has raised it.
People who believe they do it are very sure and I am over trying to convince them otherwise. You can bend your elbow or raise your hand but either way is ok if you get a drink
CarlA
956 posts
Jun 20, 2018
3:31 PM
@nacoran

Understood, you are correct. I was just trying to add some humor given the previous threads :)

@one palm John

My apologies
One Palm John
14 posts
Jun 20, 2018
3:59 PM
Ahh okay, @nacoran thanks for the explanation. Did any discussion get started about the actual practice?

If I think about it throat bending probably isn't the right combination of words, more like deep tongue bending. I think it's still using my tongue but much farther back, almost where it begins to dip into the throat. I imagine the movement to serve the same acoustic function as the tongue on the roof of the mouth, only further back, and I figured by providing a larger chamber you achieved a fuller tone. I can't speak for anyone else and I certainly don't want to start a heated debate about it, but I would describe the only difference between the two tongue positions as being thinner and fuller tone. It certainly resembles the tone difference between a narrow jaw position and a wide one.

I'll go and look for those threads now.

@CarlA, no apologies necessary, I figured there was something I was missing.

Last Edited by One Palm John on Jun 20, 2018 4:04 PM
One Palm John
15 posts
Jun 20, 2018
4:50 PM
Wowee, saw that thread. I have a couple of thoughts if no one minds me thinking out loud.

I can't say with absolute certainty but I feel that it's logical that the bending difference (if we're even achieving it in the same way nacoran) is that the K-spot is being shifted back to the back of the throat or slightly below. This fits with The Iceman's theory about targeted points, it's the same concept except we're talking about the target being the back of the throat. Now, whether it's the same point every time (unlike a traditional K spot) and some other quality of the tongue changes to create the degree of bending, or that the tongue is hitting higher and lower spots at the back of the throat, I don't know.

I would like to also firmly reiterate Olddog's sentiments, my tonuge is staying flat. I learned to do a bend with a K-spot on the roof of my mouth and like to think I'm aware enough to realise the difference. My tongue stays firmly flat on the floor of my mouth, my jaw is wide - my tongue couldn't physically move much further away from the roof. As I say I can feel horizontal shifts in it's position when bending something with a wider range like the 3 hole draw.

Nacoran what are your experiences with the difference in sound? I notice only tone change, which would anecdotally support the idea that it's the same thing done with a larger oral cavity. I very much agree with your point on the necessity for precise language, if it's not called throat bending, then what is it called?
nacoran
9875 posts
Jun 20, 2018
4:58 PM
For me it feels likes I'm opening somethin up down by my Adam's Apple. Like I said in that thread, I think regular bending actually works better. It certainly works faster/with less physical exertion. I meant to ask my gastroenterologist when was in for my upper (and lower, but not relevant to playing harmonica!) endoscopy the other day, but I got distracted with by the anesthesiologist. (I mentioned I played harmonica and he mentioned he'd tried to play, so we were off on other harmonica topics until I passed out.)

Precise language was really what I was trying to get at.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
One Palm John
16 posts
Jun 20, 2018
5:08 PM
Do you notice any tonal differences?

Interesting that you say regular bending works better, in what way?
nacoran
9876 posts
Jun 20, 2018
7:48 PM
Regular bending seems to be easier and responds with less effort than whatever I'm doing when I do it the other way. And it seems to be more precise. The tongue is a pretty agile muscle. I think, also, as I've learned to use my tongue (or upper tongue) I've kind of gotten used to it and I have to consciously think about not doing it when I try to do it the other way.

The thing I've learned about harmonica is that everyone figures out ways to do things. I played harmonica for 6 months before I went online or tried to learn anything from anyone else. (I was actually just doing it to help my asthma and to find what notes I was singing on songs I was writing.) I do two other things that I haven't heard anyone else talking about doing that I find very useful (I'm not saying no one else does them, just that I haven't seen anyone on the forums talking about it until I mentioned it). When I mentioned them on the forum nobody seemed to have language to describe what I was doing. In those cases, I think I stumbled on things by dumb luck that work well. The throat bending doesn't work as well for me but everyone's playing is different.

These arguments aren't that different than the old arguments about tongue blocking vs. lip pursing. If you look in the archives there are people at each other's throats over it. When someone humbly suggested that there might be a difference between lip pursing and lip blocking people lost their minds again!

Tone wise, bending farther down in the throat doesn't seem to change things too much. It just doesn't seem to work as easily. I can also play around with how I shape my tongue for regular bending. Usually my tongue comes away from my front teeth on bends, but I can do it keeping my tongue on them.

Despite disagreeing with him on whether it was possible to bend any other way I think Iceman's method works well. It's more or less how I eventually settled on bending and he explains it well.

There's a video out there somewhere... I haven't been able to find it, of a someone rapping or beatboxing on an x-ray (or whatever type of scan it was) but unlike the videos of people bending notes someone had added contrast colors to the image which made it much easier to see what was going on. I wish we had an enhanced image of several people doing various techniques for bends and vibrato and such. I suspect once there was more than a couple of them out there we'd really start to notice that we are all doing little parts of what we are doing differently.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
The Iceman
3595 posts
Jun 21, 2018
4:58 AM
Using a specific reference point (the "K" spot, the "D" spot, etc) is a way to help someone become aware of finite points to aim towards....then, you are free to pick and choose your own specific target spot....if you find that your spot is further back than a "K", that's fine. It's not so much focus on the "K" as find the one that you like.

When you move from higher pitched harmonicas to lower ones, all of these target spots start to shift down (or back) just a bit as you go.

If you bend "to the floor", you eliminate the space needed for true vibrato, so bend to about "a foot above the floor" and you will have the room to allow your note to move below and above the true pitch - which actually defines vibrato.

In final defense of tongue bending vs throat bending - to date, NO ONE has been able to define with words or in any way diagrams/examples a standard way to teach throat bending to anyone else. This, to me, indicates that it is not a valid approach. After all, if you can't teach the technique of "throat bending" to another, just how valid can it really be? Personally, I just don't get why some folk seem so adamant that something that can't be explained or taught is still useful.

On the other hand, teaching tongue placement in bending is super easy and something a rank beginner can understand and use to accuracy within about 2 weeks of learning.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 21, 2018 5:33 AM
groyster1
3196 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:35 AM
todd parrott first told me about throat bending....at the time I could not pull it off but as I developed my throat muscles I was able to....there are those who refuse to believe todd and I that we can bend draw notes with our throat
tmf714
3149 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:55 AM
@groyster-nah not buying it.
Are you talking about tongue block or lip purse?
I am with Ice on this one-I will never subscribe to the fact that you are bending with the throat only-that is what your stating,correct?
Wait-draw bend only?

Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 22, 2018 6:56 AM
AppalachiaBlues
186 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:59 AM
I believe tongue-bending requires a bit or throat work, and throat-bending requires a bit of tongue work. Its a continuum. Some people may be using more tongue and some may be using more throat. And shifting from one end of the continuum to the other might provide a tonal difference (perceived by the listener, not the player) - I'm not sure.

Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Jun 22, 2018 7:01 AM
dougharps
1774 posts
Jun 22, 2018
7:52 AM
@SuperBee
My favorite quote in recent weeks is, "You can bend your elbow or raise your hand but either way is ok if you get a drink."

This statement says so much!

I understand that The Iceman is focusing on a concept that I support in teaching, that the descriptions used in instruction should convey information that brings about efficient learning and improvement on the part of the student. If one is striving to be the best possible teacher, then this is of utmost importance. Descriptions that don't contribute to student improvement are distractions from progress. The Iceman reports excellent results using his time refined instructions to teach bending via tongue placement.

I understand that others are conveying their internal experiences of an alternative approach to bending using what feels to be their throat (or perhaps the back of their tongue). Such descriptions may be of little pedagogical utility, but they offer a subjective observation of perceived throat bending. If the note bends this way, it bends. While perceived throat bending is a valid description of personal experience shared by many, it does not readily adapt to teaching others.

So much of playing harmonica is unobservable. Those self taught players (like me) who blindly felt their way into bending may have difficulty with describing how they bend, despite eventually having become pretty good at it. Being able to bend well does not assure that a player is good at quickly teaching others to bend.



Setting aside instructional utility and just talking about playing, I like SuperBee's statement, a lot!
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 22, 2018 7:56 AM
The Iceman
3596 posts
Jun 22, 2018
7:59 AM
A Recycling of all the old arguments....let's see if we can move the marker forward from reruns, OK?

Throat can be held open in a pre-yawn attitude.... bending is instigated, controlled and created through tongue placement. Since you are keeping the throat muscles frozen in that open attitude, this eliminates throat from the process.

Those that insist they bend with the throat and not the tongue, please teach me how to do this....If you are successful in conveying the concept to another (me) through diagrams, video demonstration or written words, then the concept can be taught and is valid.

To date, NO ONE has offered up any substance besides "Well, that's how I do it". To date, ALL those X-ray type videos of what goes on inside when you play harmonica ALL SHOW tongue placement instigates the bend.

Having spent about 25 years in search of the BEST way to teach harmonica techniques (and rethinking and re-adjusting my mind set along the way ANY TIME someone showed me a better/more efficient approach - and this has happened a few times in the past already), I'm still waiting on ANYONE to give educational validity to "throat bending".

Trust, but verify.
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The Iceman
groyster1
3197 posts
Jun 22, 2018
8:25 AM
it really does not matter what people that dont know me believe or do not.....I will continue to do whatever Im capable of doing irregardless of what you think.....I guess you dont believe todd parrott can throat bend either

Last Edited by groyster1 on Jun 22, 2018 8:41 AM
One Palm John
17 posts
Jun 22, 2018
8:44 AM
I think people are getting too hung up on this tongue issue. Who cares whether it's being used or not? No one as far as I have read has said that the tonuge plays absolutely no role in what is referred to a throat bending. If they did and I missed it, I think we can ignore such fatuous statements. As a teacher recently reminded me; everything - your lungs, diaphragm, throat, vocal chords, tongue, jaw, teeth - play a role in the sound that is produced. You might not be actively manipulating one of those elements for a specific technique, but boy oh boy you would notice if one of them magically dissapeared from your body.

Perhaps we can leave that behind now? Of course your tongue is doing somehing, as for how much it's doing, let's wait for evidence and focus on what we can talk about; teaching the technique.

So, @Iceman, I can tell you that the spot I am targeting to do what I referred to as throatbending is below the soft pallette. If you try and make a jewish "hu-gh" sound, almost like you're forcing plhegm out of your throat, that is just ABOVE the spot I believe my tongue is closing down on. This is accompanied by a strong feeling of pressure further down the throat, near the adams apple, that is not present when tongue bending. The area of the tongue that is in the mouth stays flat, far from the roof. I do notice horizontal shifts in movement however.

I can only notice a tonal difference between the two techniques, I think it unlikely one is inherently better than the other, but feel both might have their place in different music.

Last Edited by One Palm John on Jun 22, 2018 9:53 AM
groyster1
3199 posts
Jun 22, 2018
8:51 AM
as a former respiratory therapist I did endotracheal intubation on a regular basis.....when I properly placed the laryngoscope I could see the glottic opening and vocal chords which was at most 6 inches from the patients lips to the cords......the tongue is nowhere near attached to that spot.....its all about the air flow going to the glottic opening at which further you have no control of that air
Grey Owl
891 posts
Jun 22, 2018
8:55 AM
You can't bend with the throat without the tongue, but hang on you can't bend with the tongue without the throat!

Try this. You can bend with the tongue in all sorts of positions including curling the tip of the tongue right back in the roof of your mouth or curled right back in on itself underneath the body of the tongue. or laying the tongue flat with the tip directed on the inner gum line below the bottom teeth. Now these are not the sweet spots Iceman refers to and are a bit cumbersome but are acheivable.

Try the 2 hole draw bends like this and you will have more of a sensation that the upper throat area is in play a lot more than in the conventional method. If your physiology is comfortable with this variation then you might well think it's throat bending as the tongue doesn't seem to be doing too much.

Also try the 1 overblow on a G harp and notice how large the oral cavity becomes with the push coming from the back of the throat.

Grey Owl
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The Iceman
3597 posts
Jun 22, 2018
11:35 AM
As discussed above, you CAN bend with the tongue and not the throat, Grey Owl. Throat muscles can expand (open) the throat cavity or constrict, closing the throat cavity. This affects the TONE/Resonance, not the pitch.

OnePalm....the spot you describe is the same as the one I use for that area, but I call it the "cha" spot....not "cha" like "cha cha", but the Jewish consonant sound. It is the tongue that is aimed, and that far back means it is further back on the tongue.

I kinda think that so many people imagine the tongue as only residing in the forward mouth area, but the tongue really does extend down into the throat. I suspect that the "throat benders" are not realizing this and what they perceive as their throat is really the tongue that has extended down into the throat.

It may just be a matter of adjusting perception to reality for these guys to finally realize that the throat isn't involved in bending, but changing the mind of folks who have dug in is like trying to pull that ol' towel out of the mouth of an old dog clamping his teeth down!

Over the years, I observed many "old dogs" resisting any new information that didn't jive with their narrative. As a curious teacher (and I still am, even as an old dog), I always remain open to learn something that wasn't apparent which may change my whole outlook, but sadly, I seem to be in the minority in this regard.

Saying it must be so cause Todd Parrot says so is not evidence, even though Todd is an excellent player, btw...he is on this list and I would be interested in how he justifies the "throat bending". Always willing to look at new information and ultimately change my position based on good evidence.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 22, 2018 11:36 AM
Grey Owl
892 posts
Jun 22, 2018
12:28 PM
Ah, you were misinterpreting my remark dear boy. I was referring to the absence of throat.

Grey Owl
YouTube
One Palm John
18 posts
Jun 22, 2018
12:50 PM
@Iceman, do you also get a sensation of pressure in your throat when doing the "cha" tongue bend? That could account for why people think it's the throat (if it's not).

I can say at least that usually after practicing this for a few hours my throat does feel a bit sore, something I never felt practicing tongue bending. Perhaps the vocal chords are pulling harder for some reason.
nacoran
9881 posts
Jun 22, 2018
1:16 PM
The problem, Ice, is that most of us don't have access to a fluoroscope sitting handy on a shelf in our closet to pull out to do a demonstration. The harmonica isn't an instrument that lends itself to demonstrations as easily as say, a guitar, where you can watch the fingers.

So lets start simpler. Can you do throat vibrato? I know there are different types of vibrato and several related phenomena. If I'm misusing a term, forgive me, I'm just repeating uses I've heard, and it's not central to my point which term applies to which.
-There is tremolo, as per the harp, where two reeds beating slightly out of phase with each other alternately reinforce or cancel each other creating a pulsing sound.

-Along the same line there are a variety of techniques to create that pulsing effect. You can sharply pull your diaphragm in quickly, release and repeat, creating a pulse of air that makes the harp sound louder and softer. You can do the same thing down in your throat basically by starting the swallowing process but not following through. It's related to the yawn (or maybe the intentional burp?). Your Adam's Apple basically drops a bit and you get a pulsing sound. You can do it with your tongue in your mouth or with your tongue nearly blocking the hole to get that same pulsing. I'm not sure, but I suspect you could do something with a partial lip block. (My lip got cut during my endoscopy some I'm not keen on testing a proper lip block at the moment).

-You can do a microbend

So, can you do the yawn tremolo/vibrato thing would be my first question.

(Also, just in case someone with expertise wants to way it, I don't think it would be a factor, but for the record they found a slight hiatal hernia. I can't see that affecting it much, but it's there, just for added information. I also, as a kid, developed the skill of swallowing air. I was, in my youth, capable of belching the alphabet with the help of a root beer and a little air swallowing.)

So, the first step would be to see if you can do the throat vibrato.

And for what it's worth, the other 'odd' techniques I've described for saving wear and tear on the lips have been found useful by at least a couple other players who have told me it helped them, and I was told, when I first mentioned those, that they didn't work and were impossible too by several people, which is why I'm being persistent in defending the idea of throat bending even if I find other techniques easier.

If you go back far enough in the forum history people were having similar arguments over TB vs LP arguing that one way was clearly superior before conceding that each way had its merits. I don't know if there are people who find throat bending more useful than tongue bending (possibly, as mentioned above, Todd Parrott) but if it's out there as a technique it seems it should be at least mentioned.


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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
groyster1
3200 posts
Jun 22, 2018
1:57 PM
todd may not be watching this post......if he is then I hope he does not resent me bringing him to this.......not only is he incredible player but great friend.......I know nobody respects my opinion but todd must be doing something right
groyster1
3201 posts
Jun 22, 2018
2:04 PM
thanks nate......Im done arguing with these people.....only one Ive met I shared cabin @HCH 2018.....he never brought it up.......I only wish people would recognize the existence of throat muscles and conditioning......when I draw bend......my tongue is on the floor of my mouth and not moving......thats it............outta here......I promise you will never ever hear from me on these people calling me a liar again
SuperBee
5448 posts
Jun 22, 2018
3:46 PM
Hi Groyster1: As i said George, I’m over trying to convince anyone. I do think it’s potato-pertarto and that’s about the size wherever you put your eyes. But that’s about how I see it. And as you know, I don’t see so well. I’m not calling you a liar, and I’d never do that, any more than you’re calling me a ridiculous blinkered fool.
Hey Doug, last time I made a similar allusion it was deemed ‘ridiculous’ so I’m grateful to see that view isn’t unanimous.
groyster1
3202 posts
Jun 22, 2018
4:16 PM
@superbee
peace&joy bro......cannot prove it......but I have nothing to prove.......just want to blow these marine bands.......they are such great harps
The Iceman
3598 posts
Jun 22, 2018
4:27 PM
Yes, Nacoran, I can do the throat vibrato as well as a tremolo from the diaphragm and from the throat pulsation.

I can also do both while holding a note through bending technique. So, throat vibrato/throat tremolo engages the throat muscle...what is left to bend and hold a note to pitch?

Why, the tongue position, of course!
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The Iceman
ME.HarpDoc
325 posts
Jun 22, 2018
5:56 PM
@One Palm
Cool! I've been playing about 4 years and found Iceman's method the easiest to target bending. I learned it from his description on this site (no diagrams or videos, just written words)

You seem to be a relatively new/recent player who has described a bending method that at least holds the tongue in a different plane than the Ice technique. I found it even easier to use and easier to land the bend on pitch. My tongue plays a part but so does the throat and, yes, I can feel a change in my throat muscles. A newbie teaching me something. Go figure!

So I guess since it was teachable to me using only words, by Iceman's criteria it must be valid!! Oh, wait, I think it had to be teachable to HIM to be valid. Anyway I'm able to bend both my reeds and my elbow or raise my hand and get a drink.

@ groyster1. I believe you man. Those who have THE way often miss out on a sometimes better way. A mentor of mine always said, "If it's been done, it's probably possible!" Don't let the ----- get you down!
groyster1
3204 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:07 PM
thanks bro......I almost 68 years.....Ive dealt with people all my life who think they have all the answers.......was drafted and sent to viet nam as an 18 year old.....I did not know shit from shinola.....interaction with know it alls helped me see what people are really like
ME.HarpDoc
327 posts
Jun 22, 2018
6:42 PM
Yup. I'm 70. Sometimes wisdom DOES come with old age.
Komuso
764 posts
Jun 22, 2018
9:00 PM
I think @nacoran 's point about playing efficiency is key "I think regular bending actually works better. It certainly works faster/with less physical exertion."

This applies to any instrument.

Re: Tone

It's dropping the jaw that naturally opens up the mouth chamber that affects the tone more than the tongue placement. Tongue blocking has an advantage here because it forces that by default, with LP you have to add it in.

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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
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The Iceman
3599 posts
Jun 23, 2018
4:33 AM
As a career instructor in harmonica technique, validity means something completely different to me than to folk who just play, so I understand the "gripping that old towel in the teeth" responses.

Still waiting to see a SPAH Seminar, Harmonica Gathering workshop on "Throat Bending" by an experienced clinician......anyone out there attended one that I may have missed?
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The Iceman
One Palm John
19 posts
Jun 23, 2018
5:05 AM
@HarpDoc Ha! I'm very glad and humbled that it worked for you. I'd be keen to hear if you can notice any tonal differences between the bending techniques. But good to know that description got you there and that you can feel that pressure in the throat. Yes, fairly new player, about 6 months - but working it every day. And yes, I suppose that does fit Iceman's criteria for a valid technique!

@Iceman, did you miss my last post? Can you see what I'm getting at? The sensation of pressure in the throat may be the cause for much of this debate.

@Komuso Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough - because the K-spot is effectively now at the opening of you throat (or even lower possibly), this has increased the size of the mouth chamber (same as opening up the jaw) - quite considerably in some cases as bending is possible with your tongue right up front in your mouth. This is why I think tone is thicker with the technique, although I'm open to being proven wrong. I also disagree that regular tongue bending is more efficient, as I've been practicing the technique for a few days and it's beginning to feel like second nature/muscle memory, certainly no harder than tongue bending.

Personally, I think deep tongue bending seems a better name for it than throat bending and elicits better mental imagery for someone new to the idea.

When I started this thread I figured the technique was probably well-known and hoped to learn from someone further along than I. I've got to say I find it exciting to know that even today there are still ideas and techniques that are relatively unknown about the instrument. Cool.

Last Edited by One Palm John on Jun 23, 2018 5:14 AM
ME.HarpDoc
328 posts
Jun 23, 2018
6:40 AM
@OPJ
Deep tongue bending closely fits what I feel is happening. (Deep throat can have a different connotation to us older folks). And ,yes, the K spot moves back from the palate to the throat although I’m not actually feeling my tongue touching soft palate at all. I do have more resonant tone as tongue remains on floor of mouth and jaw naturally drops to get bend allowing more volume in chamber.

@Iceman
I agree, validity means something different to a teacher and I respect that. You teach what you have verified that works well. Those of us who are players only can accept other methods that work without regard to our credentials. If we fail, we can move on. As a teacher, what you present must hold or you won’t survive in that role. However, using an “unverified” technique that works doesn’t make it wrong, which is what some of the readers may think you’re implying.
The Iceman
3600 posts
Jun 23, 2018
4:26 PM
One Palm....yes, I saw your post. I responded with that "cha" pronounced like the Jewish sound, not "cha cha"...I'm sure that sensation in the throat might be part of those that believe in "throat bending" might be feeling that gives a "throat illusion".

I believe folk are "bundling" tongue and throat together and getting confused.

For instance, groyster feels it is his throat because he says his tongue rests on the floor of this mouth. The frontal area of the tongue CAN rest on the floor of the mouth while that rear section is able to rise up towards a target point way at the back. Perhaps he is experiencing what you described as a pressure sensation as some type of "throat" motion.

Has anyone else spent YEARS analyzing from so many different angles what exactly is going on inside?

I have.

This is what led me to understand about "bundling" more than one movement/muscle in one's mind. "Unbundling" reveals so much (that most are totally unaware) of what is REALLY happening here.

At least 3 times have I rethought the whole harmonica technique over a period of about 20 years. Each time I readjusted and relearned a more efficient approach and let my old mind set go in favor of new/better/more exacting.

My personal last "rebirth" seems to be the end of the line in conceptualization as it works perfectly, is very easily taught and assimilated, and has stunning accelerated results...remember, back in the ol' days, folks said "Bending? Why, that takes YEARS of practice to master". The newest paradigm can now be "Bending? Why that takes at least a week or two to master completely".

Remember - the tongue is the miracle muscle that can twist, turn, constrict and do more than one motion at a time!
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The Iceman
Sundancer
232 posts
Jun 23, 2018
5:16 PM
Hey SuperBb Your quote made me laugh! But I can’t for the life of me recall if you were bending your elbow or your wrist to get those pints at the Marine Room. Nevertheless, your visit prompted me to really work on my bends, and I’m trying like hell to follow Adam’s credo to keep the throat wide open, get the harp back in my lips and use the throat to bend. The work is worth it.
groyster1
3205 posts
Jun 23, 2018
5:35 PM
Bflat??????he changed his name.......my favorite key of harp
Sundancer
233 posts
Jun 23, 2018
6:05 PM
I changed his name. He’s a cool smart cat. In your favorite key.
SuperBee
5452 posts
Jun 23, 2018
7:50 PM
Ha ha you fellas. That was great fun at Laguna. In Australia to talk about bending the elbow might carry an implication of self-indulgence, whereas ‘raising a glass’ maybe more about celebrating another’s achievement or success or just acknowledging respect. The end result may be quite similar but travel is not all about the destination
One Palm John
20 posts
Jun 24, 2018
3:59 AM
Fair enough @Iceman, I still contend that the tone is significantly thicker when using the "cha/hu-gh" spot, although the spot being hit is definitely lower than where those sounds are made.
Thoughts?
The Iceman
3601 posts
Jun 24, 2018
5:39 AM
Tone is thicker? My guess would be that with your lower "spot" (which is approaching the throat area) you may also be engaging the throat muscles to open (that pre-yawn attitude) and thereby deepening the tone by virtue of enlarging the resonant chamber.

Engaging the throat muscles affects the tone - those resonant voice actors do this to give them that wonderful deep voice - like Morgan Freeman for example.

Perhaps another example of "bundling"?
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The Iceman
Thievin' Heathen
1029 posts
Jun 25, 2018
5:23 PM
Best I can tell, the debate is a akin to matter of semantics, i.e. where does the tongue stop and the throat start.
One Palm John
22 posts
Jun 26, 2018
3:06 AM
I just wanted to talk about the technique itself, how popular it is, what sort of advantages/disadvantages it has over traditional tongue bending, etc.

Feel like some people are missing the woods for the trees here.
The Iceman
3603 posts
Jun 26, 2018
4:19 AM
Not so much "semantics" as "unbundling", or separating out the two entities to see what is really going on here.

If some don't want to examine this and keep that ol' towel clamped in the teeth, so be it.
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The Iceman
CarlA
959 posts
Jun 26, 2018
5:21 AM
@one palm John

Lmfao, now you see why I responded to your OP in the way I did.

For fun, you can always start a new topic title “John Mayall” or “benefits of tongue blocking vs lip pursing”, “James cottons amp”, “wearing shorts on stage”, “Manji harmonicas”, etc

These specific topics and many others are real crowd pleasers on MBH.

Good luck Sir, I’ll apologize in advance ;)
Andrew
1788 posts
Jun 26, 2018
5:31 AM
Mebbe yall need to look at this picture and work out how much you think your throat can actually contribute?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Sagittalmouth.png

My suggestion would be, the more holistic you are, the better your sound will be. Listen to it with your ears, not your brain.

Only think about your embouchure until you can feel it, then stop thinking about it.

Last Edited by Andrew on Jun 26, 2018 5:33 AM
The Iceman
3606 posts
Jun 26, 2018
5:39 AM
+1 to Andrew regarding the picture!
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 26, 2018 5:39 AM


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