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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Gapping customized harps?
Gapping customized harps?
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Sloppy1
17 posts
May 11, 2018
3:36 PM
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I know on stock harps the player has to gap the reeds to their liking. I am wondering if a customized harp is intended to be played as is or if you still have to gap the reeds to your liking. I bought a semi custom harp and I am overall pleased with it for my skill level,but I had to gap the reeds on the 3 hole to get the bends to respond the way that feels good to me.
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99
75 posts
May 11, 2018
4:54 PM
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Well, some customizes will void the warranty if you open them up. They request that you send them back so they can be tweaked. I have seen a few that were sealed with a drop of wax so they can tell if you placed your hand in the cookie jar. 99
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hvyj
3580 posts
May 11, 2018
7:54 PM
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You shouldn't have to gap customized harps, but no customizer gets everything perfect every time. So...if it's a matter of a minor adjustment, go ahead and do it yourself if you know how. If it's something more complicated, like zeroing in separation on the 10 hole blow bends, you are probably better off sending it back in to the customizer for him to make it right rather than screwing around with it and making a bad situation worse which will involve more work for the customizer to correct.
CAVEAT: the above assumes that the harps were customized to your specs or specs developed by the customizer to fit the way you play. One problem a newer player may confront is not having enough experience to know what specs are suitable for what you are trying to do.
Last Edited by hvyj on May 11, 2018 8:01 PM
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Sloppy1
18 posts
May 12, 2018
4:14 AM
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I dont want to name names because I am happy with the harp. It was a harp that was prebuilt,not specific to me. Also it is a middle of the road custom. Step above a stock harp but not his top work. I have the dvds on customising and I have made some bad playing stockers into decent to me harps. This one still is my best playing harp I have. I take the three draw bends gapping issue more my playing ability than anything wrong with the harp. I am getting better all the time with my three hole bending ,but still it is the most troubling hole on whatever harp I am playing.
Last Edited by Sloppy1 on May 12, 2018 4:14 AM
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barbequebob
3506 posts
May 12, 2018
8:22 AM
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Hvyj is 100% correct in regards to customized harps when it comes to gapping because ALL the really good, reputable ones will ALWAYS want to discuss with you what you're playing style is all about before ANY work gets done and for someone who plays overblows, it becomes an incredibly important issue for both the player and customizer because gapping is only ONE of the things that are necessary for that style to work and you get charged more money for that setup because there's a lot more manual labor involved in the process to get it right and also the slot tolerances have to be even tighter to go along with that.
A semi-custom is basically a few very minor tweaks that basically you can learn how to do yourself.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
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Thievin' Heathen
1005 posts
May 12, 2018
8:36 AM
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OT Side Note - I find playing the major scale up & down all 3 octaves helps me hit the bends. Every part of my being wants to hear those notes in tune. Tongue, throat, ear, everything working together to hit that note, and bing! "it's there". If it just won't get there, it's time to take the harp apart. You could send it back for a test & re-tweak or just hand it to another harp player and let him/her run up & down it a little bit. Sometimes, feedback is a good thing.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on May 12, 2018 8:37 AM
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florida-trader
1310 posts
May 12, 2018
11:00 AM
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This is just my opinion and/or policy.
The short answer to your question is that once you buy a harp – custom or not – you own it and you can do anything you want with it. If the gaps need adjusting, then assuming you know how to do it – adjust them to your liking. True, there is a “Getting to know you” period when you get a new harp, so aside from adjusting the harp to meet your preferences, you might also throw a little patience into the mix and see if you get used to it the way it is. Either way is fine. It is your harp.
The long answer is that setting up a harp for a specific player is a feel thing. The ideal situation would be to have your customer sitting with you as you adjust his harp. You could make small adjustments, have him test it, give you feedback and repeat the process until you get the harp dialed in exactly the way they want it. The reality though is that this is the exception rather than the rule – at least it is for me. I have built literally 1,000’s of custom harps in the past 5 or 6 years and have customers all over the world. A harp that plays perfectly for me, might not play perfectly for you. We all have different embouchures, different attacks, different styles of play, etc. etc. There is no such thing as “One size fits all”. Even with excellent communication with the customer prior to building them a harp, if they are remote, there is still a chance that you might not get it exactly the way they want it. I encourage my customers to give me feedback. The more information I can gather after they have received a harp from me, the better equipped I will be to build them the next harp. If the harp I sent them needs some adjusting, I will either walk them through how to adjust the gaps or they can send it back to me – their choice. In my opinion, anyone who is serious about playing the harmonica, should at least know how to remove the covers from their harps and make minor adjustments to the gaps. A lot of people who have never done this make a big deal out of it but those of us who have know that it is child’s play. I encourage my customers to at least give it a try – it is easier than they think. I let them know that there is nothing they can do to that harp that I cannot fix, so even if they try and fail, it is no big deal. Send it back to me and I will fix it - no charge .
For me, building a custom harp for someone is an honor. I know how important harps are to each of us and this is especially so when someone steps up and spends $150-$200 on a harp. It has to be right. Do it right, and you help that customer enjoy endless hours of pleasure making beautiful music. Get it wrong and it will leave a bitter taste and create resentment. At the end of the day, it is not about selling a harp. It is about creating a long-term relationship. The relationship extends way past the transaction of buying and selling a harp. There is a “Getting to know you” period with customers too, so the more we communicate and get on the same page, the better I can serve them.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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arzajac
1854 posts
May 12, 2018
4:53 PM
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Sloppy1: No matter who made the harp, you will always get the correct answer from the customizer (you should, anyway, if they stand by their product). From your description of the harp, it sounds like it might be one of my Semis, bought off-the-shelf from either Rockin Ron in the USA or Tomlin in Europe (Thanks!). With any product purchased from us, you can always reach out with questions or concerns. We work hard to always make things right.
Ron has been offering my pre-built Semis for about two years now and I am surprised I haven't gotten this question more often than I have. These harps are not adjusted for a specific player. They are set up so that the widest possible range of players will be happy with it.
Most people play them and are delighted with them as-is. The only time I got asked this question before was by two different customers *on the same day*, with two harps of the exact same specifications. One wanted the harp to be gapped tighter and the other wanted it to be gapped wider. Go figure!
I told them it was their choice of either:
1. Ship me the harp and I will adjust it to your liking for free.
2. Adjust it yourself and if you mess it up, ship me the harp and I will perform warranty service (free for a time after you buy the harp).
These harps have a lifetime warranty which means once the free warranty period is up, for the cost of service you get the harp brought back to like-new condition. You can also have adjustments made to make it better suit your needs if you don't mind waiting a little longer to get your harp back (Example, change the tuning temperament to 7limit or ET.)
These can also be upgraded to full custom in which case, I have a pretty long questionnaire we go through so that I get all the details right.
To be clear, a Full Custom should not require you to make any adjustments. A lot of attention to detail goes into a Full Custom and I am pretty sure that if you want something adjusted, you won't be able to get the result you are looking for unless you know "where to look".
One of my Semis is much more bomb-proof, though. That being said, contact me and I will help you out.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 13, 2018 7:31 AM
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Sloppy1
19 posts
May 12, 2018
10:22 PM
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My post was not meant to imply who I bought the harp from or badmouth anyone. I am not disappointed with my purchase at all. I put it down to my non developed playing ability. I am fully used to gapping and this was nothing major. I was just wondering if I was undoing their work or it is ok to do minor gapping to suit yourself. I have bought Andrews tools and videos from Rons and I have some BMH combs and they have been good purchases.
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dougharps
1757 posts
May 13, 2018
9:38 AM
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As Tom said, "It is your harp."
If you have made a large investment in a custom or semi-custom harp you may want to contact the customizer about it. However, at times there may be a long wait for repairs, because customizers usually keep busy building and servicing their harps.
If the gap on one of my harps (OTB or custom!) isn't to my satisfaction (and I find that what is satisfactory gapping to me changes at times) I gently adjust as needed.
It is my harp and my risk if I damage it.
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Doug S.
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florida-trader
1311 posts
May 13, 2018
11:53 AM
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Sloppy1 – Speaking for myself and I think I can speak for Andrew – neither one of us took offense with your questions or comments. I offer small batches of harps I refer to as “Ready-to-Go” Custom Harps, which some might consider “semi-custom”. I recently put out a batch of Special 20s. Andrew offers some pre-built semi-custom harps through a couple of distributors. You don’t have your name listed in your User Profile so I didn’t know if you were one of my customers or Andrew’s. We are both trying to accomplish the same thing. If/when a customer orders a custom harp from either of us, they get to choose from a variety of models, keys, custom combs and set-ups. The sheer number of different possible combinations makes it impossible for us to have one of everything built in advance just waiting for someone to buy it. Rather, under normal circumstances, that harp would be built to order and might take anywhere from 6-8 weeks up to 4 or 5 months. The Blue Moon Ready-to-Go or a Zajac Semi-Custom harps are a bit of a trade-off. You don’t get to choose from as many options (model, comb, key, etc.) but you also don’t have to wait. I’m sure, Andrew, as I do, attempts to find lowest common denominators and offer the most popular models in the most popular keys so as to have the broadest appeal. This also includes the set-up. If all the Ready-to-Go harps I offered were set up for Overblows and Overdraws and if Andrew offered full customs instead of semi-customs then the harps would not be suitable for as many players (they would likely be too tight) and they would cost a lot more simply because it takes a lot longer to build OB/OD harps. This also would limit the appeal to a degree.
So again, not offense what-so-ever as far as I am concerned, and it certainly looks as if Andrew feels the same way. Your question is valid though as it is my understanding that some customizers prefer that you not monkey with the harps they build. I guess the only way to know is to ask – which you did.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on May 13, 2018 12:04 PM
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HarveyHarp
762 posts
May 16, 2018
8:28 AM
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Well, I know the harp was not mine, because I do not build Semi Customs. Every harp I build is the best work that I can possibly do. I will always ask the customer about their playing habits, and whether they overblow, or not, hard or soft player etc. If I sell a harp to a new custom harp customer, I send an instruction sheet on how to get used to a HarveyHarp. I instruct them to blow each hole as softly as possible, bend and overdraw as softly as possible and then start gradually building up their playing pressure to their liking. I ask them to make a note as to which hole, if any, does not meet their expectation, so I know exactly what to adjust. Since I started doing this, years ago, I have very little problem with my harps. If you are not used to a custom harp, and you play it like you normally do, then you probably will not be able to fully enjoy its capabilities.
I never have a problem if one of my customers tries to adjust his own harp, and screws it up. I just fix it for him. Its not a big deal, and it's part of the learning procedure. In my mind, adjusting your own harps is part of the enjoyment of playing, regardless of whether it is custom of OOTB.
I get a lot of harps sent to me that have been built by other customizers, some great, some not so great. Some because there is a busted reed, and some because the owner has tried to adjust it to his liking and screwed it up and is embarrassed to send it back to its maker. And some, because it does not meet their expectations, or because they came to play in my town, and needed service. I even have one big name player who I build some harps for, who also uses harps from another customizer, that told me he was forbidden to let me open his harp. That is really funny. I had one out of town player that busted a reed, and asked me to fix it only if the builder could not tell that it was fixed. That I could not do.
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HarveyHarp
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WinslowYerxa
1567 posts
May 16, 2018
9:45 AM
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There's some confusion around the term "custom."
If it was built or adjusted specifically for you and your individual playing style, with dialog and maybe some try-and-then-adjust from the builder, then it's custom.
Anything else is not custom. Rather it's optimized. Here's part of what I wrote on bluesharmonica.com in response to someone asking about high-end harps.
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It used to be that you could buy a stock, out-of-the-box harp, or you could buy a custom harp. When you think about it, custom should mean custom tailored to the preferences and needs of each individual player. But a number of sellers now do something that fall in between stock and custom, and I call these optimized harps. They take stock harps and do overall improvement and setup to make them perform better, play more in tune, and perhaps last longer. Greg Jones of 16:23 Harmonicas, and Ben Bouman in the Netherlands both come to mind. However, both of them work exclusively on Seydel harps.
An optimizer may go some steps further though. They may also:
- Offer levels of setup, like Joe Spiers does, or have ready-to-go harps set up for the heavy player, the overblower, etc.
- Build harps using replacement upgrade parts, such as combs and even covers for better appearance, greater airtightness. Andrew Zajac and Tom Halchak of Blue Moon Harmonicas come to mind in this regard.
- They may even go to the point of building whole new models based around a particular set of reedplates, with special comb, covers, and setup. Blue Moon is doing this with their limited-edition Jason Ricci harps, based on Jason's reedplates of choice, the Suzuki Manji. Across the Atlantic, Anthony Dannecker is building customs from the reedplates up as well with his Centurion harps.
(Apologies to any optimizers or customizers I may have failed to mention - the list is not meant to be comprehensive, only to offer examples.)
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on May 16, 2018 9:50 AM
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HarveyHarp
763 posts
May 17, 2018
11:06 AM
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About 10 years ago, when I first developed my Website, www.harveyharp.com, I decided to call the harmonicas that I built, Optomized HarveyHarps. The reason was, that the word customized was used for everything from someone who painted the edges of the comb to a full blown stage 3 Spiers harp, or Filisko guild harp. It got very confusing, and there were some people that would get hold of a "custom" harp from various people, take it apart and report how big a piece of junk it was. There were some pretty good "Customizers" who these people trashed, all in the effort to build themselves up. These self proclaimed experts for the most part have dissapeared off the scene. For this reason, I decided to build my harps all the same way, to the best of my abilities, so that they were all optimized.
Well, several years later, I was approached by a builder who inquired how long I have been building "Optimized Harmonica" After I responded that I had been doing it for several years, he demanded that I stop the practice, because he had invented the term. So, I responded with definition of the term optimized, and the term customize from the dictionary. The dispute grew and it got on the forums and everyone chimed in. The guy who started this controversy, and his group of friends, all of which are not in the business any more, started trying to convince the harmonica buying public that an optimized harmonica was not as good as a custom harmonica. It was not worth my effort to fight anymore, and since I pretty much a hobbyist and get business by word of mouth, I gave up the fight.
However, I still contend that and Optimized Harmonica is one that is the best that any one individual can make, and a customized harmonica in one that is made to a customers specification, but not necessarily the best that he can make.
Its just semamtics.
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HarveyHarp
Last Edited by HarveyHarp on May 17, 2018 11:09 AM
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Gnarly
2482 posts
May 17, 2018
11:17 AM
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Harvey, I remember that bit of drama!
I once worked on TJ Klay's Spiers, and neither of them was mad when I saw them last.
I will continue to contend that the person most entitled to work on a harmonica is the one who owns it. The more they personally can do with it, the happier they will be.
Unless they screw it up--so practice on your more expendable harps.
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bluemoose
1166 posts
May 17, 2018
4:16 PM
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All right, I'll confess. Been thinking about it for awhile but it's been 7 or 8 years so I guess it's okay now to re-gap my Buddha harp. (There I said it!)
Did it a few weeks ago. Was very reponsive top to bottom but finicky if you played it with any abandon.
Now it's a fabulous jam harp, doesn't choke, easily as smooth as my Brad Harrison custom Marine Bands.
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
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MP
3611 posts
May 17, 2018
4:16 PM
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Harvey??that story about the guy whom claimed to have invented the term 'optimized' has got to be one of the weirdest harmonica stories I've ever heard! The harp world still has a lot of self centered, egocentric, nuts but this is a good one! I won't name any names but sometimes great techs n players feel this odd need to let others know they are better than you. It's insecurity of course. But back to optimized man. Great story Harv and I almost miss the days of the over confident harmonica gurus....not!
PS. Lot of very good posts on original topic.
PPS bluemoose. After Chris passed away RIP, I replaced a blow reed on a GM Buddha harp. Chris put a lot of work into that harp and i had to mimic his work. I remember that those reeds were very sensitive.
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Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
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Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
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Last Edited by MP on May 17, 2018 4:52 PM
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HarveyHarp
764 posts
May 17, 2018
10:57 PM
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There was one guy that critized the Buddah Harp, pretty harshley. He even tryed to knock it down, because the Diamonwood Comb smelled like a Diamonwood comb.
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HarveyHarp
Last Edited by HarveyHarp on May 17, 2018 10:57 PM
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Gnarly
2484 posts
May 18, 2018
7:44 AM
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Here is the thread in question.
I have no dog in this fight, just interested in clarity.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 18, 2018 7:48 AM
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Andrew
1785 posts
May 18, 2018
9:09 AM
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I notice in the thread in question that you switch between the two spellings "optimize" and "optomize". If you want clarity, you should stick to one spelling and work out which one caused the initial controversy. And you should decide if "optomize" was deliberately or accidentally wrong. It may be that "optomization" was a registered practice. Clearly optimization can't be registered.
Last Edited by Andrew on May 18, 2018 9:14 AM
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nacoran
9853 posts
May 18, 2018
10:29 AM
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I've got a Elk River Seydel... well, sort of. I ordered a LLF from Dave back in the day. There was a misunderstanding about the order (I was on a tight budget). He thought I'd ordered a comb too, so the harp took longer to get to me. At the last minute he realized the mistake, but decided to include the comb gratis. The whole thing got more complicated because he used a poly seal and I am particularly prone to smell sensitivities. For 99% of the market, the comb would have been perfect, but for me it was a problem... no problem though, he included the original aluminum comb so I just swapped it. I never could get used to the valves though, so eventually I took them off. He'd done a good job with them but valves drive me nuts. Anyway, the custom comb sat in a drawer for a couple years curing until the smell was finally gone. It is a beaut! Reclaimed chestnut... I finally bought a set of reads and a set of Seydel's antiqued covers. I use the chestnut comb on a Low D harmonic minor with antiqued covers. I've got several attractive harps, some with Blue Moon combs/covers, one with a Reynolds comb with Blue Moon covers (although I broke the comb on that one),... but out of all of them the Chestnut comb w/ the antiqued covers is my favorite. (It's a close call though.)
Before I read the old thread I was kind of expecting to see Hetrick mentioned in it (although I was surprised to see Dave involved.) He is one of just 3 guys to ever get banned from the forum 3 times. By all accounts he made great stuff, but he sure could stir up some controversy.
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Nate
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HarveyHarp
765 posts
May 18, 2018
3:26 PM
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Thanks for refreshing my memory. This thread is bringing back memories, but I was not going to mention names. As a side, at one point, as a joke to someone else's thread, and I do not remember who, I started a new harmonica company, caller Farfum Harmonicas. My logo were that they were Farfum airtight, Farfum perfectly tuned, Farfum cheap, Farfum fast delivery, etc. This spoof went on for a while. There were a lot of replies like I am Farfum buying one, Farfum great customer services, etc. This is all from memory, so I might be Farfum accurate.
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HarveyHarp
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