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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Harmonica Meatball # 19 This concept is important
Harmonica Meatball # 19 This concept is important
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Michael Rubin
1190 posts
May 03, 2018
7:39 AM
SuperBee
5400 posts
May 03, 2018
8:56 AM
Thanks Michael. I had never thought of it like that. I will give it a whirl. I mainly play high bends on A harp and no probs with 8 and 9 but 10 could be much better. I will work on that using this concept. I’d just been trying to improve it by repetition but ill try this incremental approach
The Iceman
3555 posts
May 03, 2018
9:45 AM
I disagree with Michael here.....have never found anything regarding technique to be like "lifting weights". To suggest that it is harder puts the wrong mind-set into a student.

The problem may stem from a perception - for example, you want to get that can of soup from the "highest" shelf in Grandma's kitchen. "Highest" suggests that you have to REACH harder and strain to get it.

That's OK for 3D real life situation, but to impute that into harmonica technique is not, IMO, the best approach.

The way I teach is that, when you are going for "higher" notes like this, you must resist the "3D" pantry feeling. I suggest that the higher you go, the LESS strain you put forth, which, at first is a bit counter - intuitive, but my experience teaching has resulted in better results.

So, more relaxing while focusing that target point further forward more accurately works quite well. In the case of high end exhale bends, especially hole 10, that focus point actually moves away from the roof of the mouth and towards that area where the gums and upper teeth meet and even into the back of those upper teeth. While searching for that "sweet spot", the only extra tension I allow at first is a bit tighter "core" around the diaphragm area which supports the focused breathing out a bit stronger.

Once you "get it", one can then even relax this "core" a bit, and you pop out the other end realizing "Why, this isn't about more force at all - it's about accuracy and finesse!"

Not wanting to argue which one is the best - let the student decide if he wants to study with a teacher who suggests "it's like weight lifting" or a teacher who suggests "it's actually easy and doesn't take much force at all".

Both may yield the results - you gets to pick the one that seems easiest to you.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on May 03, 2018 9:47 AM
hvyj
3574 posts
May 03, 2018
10:35 AM
I've never agreed with the conventional wisdom that lower harps are easier to blow bend than higher harps. In my experience, a C harp is the easiest harp to blow bend and all of the keys above and below C are not quite as easy. FWIW.
SuperBee
5401 posts
May 03, 2018
1:08 PM
Weightlifting maybe not the best analogy. I expect it’s more about calibration.
dougharps
1752 posts
May 03, 2018
2:43 PM
I like what Michael is suggesting with regard to learning the intermediate notes in order to to learn to shape your oral cavity to shape the correct pitches.

Perhaps the weight lifting metaphor is confusing, as it may indicate degrees of strength or force to some people. I don't think Michael meant it that way.

Successively practicing the shaping of your blow bend pitches by half steps seems like solid teaching/learning technique. There are missing pitches between 9 and 10 that may challenge some during learning to shape their airway for the tones. If you don't "hear" and shape the correct mouth pitch shape, you will not get the tone.

see Steve Baker YouTube tutorial #3 on "Tone")

Some beginners struggle with the low draws when first starting, because of the gaps in pitches are counter intuitive.

Learning the mouth shapes through incremental "baby steps" makes perfect sense to me as a way to learn. Perhaps a "stretching" exercise is a better physical metaphor than weight lifting?
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on May 03, 2018 2:45 PM
The Iceman
3556 posts
May 04, 2018
4:26 AM
On the high end bends discussed here, all the bends are easily achieved with jaw relaxed as well as with jaw closed so the front teeth are touching. Both give very different mouth shape, yet the bends are still available and sound the same.

This seems to suggest that it isn't really mouth shape, but tongue placement.

It's possible that "mouth shape" may be in the same category as "throat bending" in regards to being one step removed from what actually is the source.

However, if a lot of you focus on "mouth shape" and within that actually do unconsciously place the tongue correctly for bends, more power to you!
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The Iceman
dougharps
1753 posts
May 04, 2018
6:12 AM
Picky, picky, picky!!!

Please forgive those mere mortals whose use of language fails to meet your exacting standards for clarity and focus.

In years of teaching you have determined the specific language you will use in discussing these issues. I am not proposing that all adopt "mouth shape", a sloppy description at best. I agree that tongue placement (and shape) is more accurate wording.


"Mouth shape" was intended as a synonym for "oral cavity". Tuning your airway to support a note or bend is important to creating the note. The enclosed space that is shaped by where/how you place your tongue in that oral cavity (your mouth) as well as jaw position will affect the sound. Changing the placement and shape/arch of your tongue and your jaw position changes the enclosed volume and flow of air, enabling or interfering with bending and overbending. And tone...

My statement was in support of Michael's suggestion about learning how to play hole 10 blow bends by playing the skipped successive half tone steps, using 9 blow bends on other keys of harmonicas.

It is an established teaching approach to teach incrementally, and I believe that Michael made a very useful suggestion in his video that I have not heard spoken or seen written elsewhere in harmonica pedagogy.

So far as codifying the specific descriptive terminology to be used in harmonica instruction, you are welcome to continue that discussion with Michael or any other interested harmonica teachers. I much prefer to play.

If too many hairs are split one is likely to get a hair stuck in a reed and it will stop the music.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on May 04, 2018 7:33 AM
hvyj
3576 posts
May 04, 2018
7:21 AM
With effective tongue placement one can blow bend consistently even with variations in one's oral resonance chamber.
dougharps
1754 posts
May 04, 2018
7:47 AM
@hvyj

Please demonstrate how you separate "tongue placement" from "variations in one's oral resonance chamber". You cannot. The placement of the tongue affects "one's oral resonance chamber", unless your tongue is not in your mouth.

Damn, now there is a hair stuck in my 10 hole blow reed!

Hairsplitting... how many angels can dance on the head of a reed rivet???

And I still think that playing the missing blow bend pitches between blow bend 9 and blow bend 10 is a cool educational suggestion for incremental learning of the technique.
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Doug S.
The Iceman
3557 posts
May 04, 2018
8:02 AM
Not picky at all....unless you choose to make it so. For instance:

-Please demonstrate how you separate "tongue placement" from "variations in one's oral resonance chamber". You cannot. The placement of the tongue affects "one's oral resonance chamber", unless your tongue is not in your mouth.-

One can place the tongue correctly to obtain the correct pitch to start. Then, with tongue firmly in proper "target spot" position, merely open the throat in a large "pre yawn attitude" and then close up the throat for a smaller chamber. Pitch remains the same. Oral resonance chamber changes. Tone (overtone series) changes. I believe we are discussing pitch and not tone here....

My whole focus for 20 years was in discovering the bottom line, most exact and focused descriptive techniques, unbundling of musculature used physically and mentally to get students to the top of the technique mountain in the shortest time.

There are MANY paths up this mountain. I prefer the shortest one, but there is no reason that the longer one won't get you there as well - it just takes longer.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on May 04, 2018 8:13 AM
hvyj
3577 posts
May 04, 2018
9:31 AM
Of course everything, including tongue placement, affects oral resonance chamber. But as Iceman points out, variation in throat position can vary. Also, depth of harp placement, tight or loose lip and/or jaw muscles, and how far open or closed your jaw is. But the optimum tongue position will give the player a consistent blow bend and override all these variables.

Anyway, this has been my experience.

I'm interested in the best way to indendently intonate the two 10 hole blow bends.

Last Edited by hvyj on May 04, 2018 9:35 AM
dougharps
1755 posts
May 04, 2018
9:37 AM
@The Iceman

I offered a response to hvyj's post, having essentially conceded to your definitions in my previous post. Your descriptions appear to be more clear and accurate than mine with regard to blow bending.

I am not competing with you, Larry. I am not a professional harmonica teacher. I have not found any of your statements to be factually inaccurate, and they may indeed be very useful as teaching tools. Perhaps you should create a series of your own videos offering your own instructional approach rather than critiquing others from on high when they post instructional videos?

Thank you for demonstrating your teaching approach and demeanor to MBH readers. With regard to whether your approach and descriptive language surpasses the approaches of other harmonica instructors, clearly you believe that they do.

I will leave it to each reader to decide if they like your instructional approach.

I am primarily a player and vocalist. I am generally satisfied with my current playing, though I continue to strive to improve and add to it to grow musically in directions that interest me. I have no interest in competing with you.
***************************
P.S.
I still think that playing the missing blow bend pitches between blow bend 9 and blow bend 10 is a cool and sound educational suggestion for incremental learning of blow bend technique.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on May 04, 2018 9:40 AM
The Iceman
3558 posts
May 04, 2018
10:11 AM
Doug sez: "Perhaps you should create a series of your own videos offering your own instructional approach rather than critiquing others from on high when they post instructional videos?"

I am the LEAST TECH oriented of ALL the harmonica teachers that post videos...

do not have a camera hooked up to my OLD computer (running Windows XP). Do not use video capture on my very inexpensive cell phone.

Have always been more real life in real time kinda teacher.

Maybe when I invest in different equipment and learn how to do it, I may post videos, but right now am not qualified to....

the "critiquing from on high" kinda feels like a subtle insult, but I may be too sensitive on this issue. Not "from on high", but from a position of seeing rank beginners totally surpass so many other beginning/intermediate players within a few weeks or months in regards to techniques, so I'm pretty excited to try to disseminate my knowledge any way I can with my limited tech skills. I want everyone to see how easy it is - that bending to pitch doesn't take years of practice as was the old paradigm, etc.

doing the best I can to share what I know ...and it isn't a competition with you or a debate, btw.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on May 04, 2018 10:12 AM
nacoran
9830 posts
May 04, 2018
1:15 PM
I think it's worth noting that when it comes to bends there seems to be more than one way to skin the cat. I think there was a discussion fairly recently about whether you use your tongue to bend in which I tried to get some clarification on that. I can absolutely do bends with the part of my tongue that is in my mouth, but I also do something down farther in my throat, as a completely different technique, that gets bends too. I know the tongue goes down the throat fairly far, but honestly that far down my throat I can't tell if it's my tongue or my vocal cords or what exactly is doing the moving.

My point is that a lot of the language really isn't codified when you get down into the nitty gritty stuff.

Iceman, I'm pretty rough at doing videos. I actually bought a webcam and did one harmonica related video, but then I had to do a windows reinstall and my Windows Movie Maker got removed. Maybe we can convince one of the tech guys to make a good video on video making, including how to get tiny stuff like reed work to show up in the image without being all blurry. :)



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