As someone who had his taste cemented in place by several Detroit area black owned or black oriented radio stations, your funk is legit and conspicuously motivating your shoulders to give the swing to the swagger and make the stride wide as your music heats you up and the world around you.This playing makes life more than mere endurance and drudgery of routine. From field to factory to dishwasher station and college lectern, this is the funk, the signature, the riff and the chord and the resonance that explains everything and yet itself cannot be explained. This is a lesson in funk metaphysics, and thank you for your efforts to elucidate what can be felt in degrees mere phrases do injustice to. ---------- www.ted-burke.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Feb 16, 2018 11:51 AM
Justin Sandercoe has been teaching on YT for a decade. It takes him a long time to get down to the nitty gritty, but when he finally does, he's great. Cut ahead to 8:51.
Funk - especially "old school" is near and dear to my Detroit heart.
Here is a contemporary Swedish unit that is doing all the right stuff...Nils was a drummer before he discovered the trombone....drum sets the metric groove - notice the snare "pop" on beats 2 and 4 (original old school Detroit funk would really strip this down to bass drum hitting a simple and solid beat 1 and 3)..once your inner hear is aligned with the drum, notice how the bass sets up a pretty non-syncopated grounding in a basic 1 chord (playing solid for 4 beats and then setting up the next major 1 beat with 3 beats of "filler")....once your inner ear adds this layer of listening/understanding, you can start to focus on the other instruments playing all around the basic skeleton of beat - the rhythm guitar that then enters to fill that space with anticipated beat focus.
As Adam describes, the 16th note just before the next beat is where a lot of that anticipated forward momentum funk feel happens...
My dream was always to be the only white guy in a black funk band, and it eventually came true for me when I was gigging in the Orlando area. The secret is to move from counting the 16th notes in one's head to learning to "feel" that anticipation!
Then, there is one of my favs (one white guy in a band of all black funk players)...The Time! Here are the "senior citizens" showing young dudes (like Bruno Mars) how it should be done! As Adam has said, you gotta feel it in your body. Check out the body moves of this band. Also, snare "pop" on 2 and 4 and that 4th beat in which the bass drops out.
My only criticism of Adam's video is that, to me at least, the funk feel is not frantic - it is a relaxed groove. The "excitable hurried" feel of Adam's example may just be what some view as "white boy style funk". Not to sound too politically incorrect here, but my experience is that black musicians incorporate that anticipated beat as a natural feel while white musicians have to work at it. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Feb 11, 2018 6:40 AM
Iceman: My video is indeed very energetic--one of the most energetic vids I've ever done. Or at least my talk is energetic. Perhaps you're confusing that verbal energy with what I'm actually playing. The basic lick that I'm teaching--root, flat seventh, root, with the first two notes smack on the beat and the third slightly ahead of the beat--is pretty laid back.
Luckily, after so many years playing funk with black musicians, I don't have to work at the feel. I just feel it, baby. (That's why it was easy for Jerry Jemmott to step in and layer his funky bass into "Thunky Fing Rides Again.") But in order to TEACH the funk, I punch up the intensity of my verbal presentation. That's just surface. The funk lives down below.
Speaking of which, I think I should do a lesson on how to play TFRA.
Yeah, I'm not really surprised Nile Rogers hasn't had a mention yet, I mean, he's good, but not THAT good. (I mention him because a series of programmes on him were on British TV last year) The story of how Le Freak was written is quite amusing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ith7xkuYGc
Last Edited by Andrew on Feb 11, 2018 9:13 AM
You are coming from NY Street duo funk scene. Without bass and dedicated drummer, as well as rhythm guitar, your funk is different from my Detroit street experience with many members of Parliament/Funkadelic (remember, one of those members was producer in the studio of the rock band I was in...so I was interacting with them, as well as being the piano tech for the recording/rehearsal complex that they used to fine tune their live shows, etc).
What seemed to just ooze out of their pores effortlessly is different from what you demonstrated in your video. The difference may be subtle, for sure, but it does exist.
Perhaps it is more of a complete package contained within their experience as a whole in contrast to a duo street experience?
So, while we may disagree as to the extent of this difference, I still find what you do, as cool as it is, to feel slightly forced rather than organic. In your "Thunky Fing", you do have a good feel, but in regards to that old school approach, I find your approach uses too many notes. The most amazing funk I've heard uses minimalist note approach. (great example in how funk began is found in The Meters - talk about simplification!)
Remember, it is just my opinion filtered through my real life experiences... ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Feb 11, 2018 9:46 AM
Incredible over analyzed hogwash by a bunch of white folks who touched the hem of black musicians Some become experts by radio wave ( havent heard that one before) others by being a token white guy in the black band
you are not black-sorry-just play the best you can If there were any black bluesmen on this board they would die laughing PS this is not a reflection on the video--didnt watch- I have no interest in being funky( Sly, Clinton etc are funky enuff without my help) Just found the comments rather condescending-maybe thats just me with too much coffee used to see Billy Paul in the pizza joint near PCA ( Phila College of Art) where we hungout after school Sigma Sound was near by
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Feb 11, 2018 11:12 AM
I don't know why "white boy funk" should be used as a pejorative, as a default. Music forms continue to grow and evolve and remain relevant only if it reaches and moves audiences, many of whom, in turn, are inspired by that music and desire to play it themselves. Or bring it's influence to bear on whatever expression they happen to choose. Needless to say, younger players bring their own thing to the form; they both change the form and extend its tradition. This is what I believe Adam is doing. ---------- www.ted-burke.com
Here's a really nice lesson on "Cissy Strut" from Leo Nocentelli. NOLA funk.
Here's a song called "Funky Sterling," featuring Sterling Magee and George Benson on guitars. I learned most, but not all, of what I know about the funk from Sterling.
Back in college, I played guitar in a jazz/funk/fusion band called Spiral. Our repertoire included "Chameleon," "Shining Star," "Sing a Song," "I Wish," three or four songs by the Crusaders. Not heavy funk of the JB variety, but enough to set me up for Sterling and the streets, where we did "I Feel Good," and where "Thunky Fing" came into being. Get thunky! ---------- Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
Goldbrick sez..."others by being a token white guy in the black band".
Am not sure who you are referring to....maybe you are talking about Monte Moir of "The Time", perhaps Bill Evans in Miles Davis' band, or The Iceman in "Dr. Otto"?
Both black funk bands nor Miles would have hired a white keyboard player if he didn't play funky or "correct" on their terms...
I guess my problem is with the word "token", which has a totally different connotation than "the right artist for the position - no matter the color of his skin".
Now, I'd never accuse you of a sly insult, Goldbrick. I just am curious as to whom you were referring.... ---------- The Iceman
Those two vids the Boss has uploaded are absolutely, to me, a prime example of Funk and then something played by white guys.
Last Edited by indigo on Feb 11, 2018 7:31 PM
indigo: I'm afraid that I disagree. I'm not sure you know who Paul Mack is, but he had a long history in NYC as the leader of an incredibly funky ensemble, Mr. Thing and the Professional Human Beings. What he's doing in that second video is the definition of deep funk. (What the harp player is doing, by contrast, is merely very nice playing.) His timekeeping is unbelievably good, and his groove is all the way in the pocket. I've never met or heard a one-man band, in fact, who can touch what he's doing here. It sounds extremely easy: just 1 and 3 on the kick and 2 and 4 on the snare. It's incredibly hard to keep it that stable, AND funky, at that medium slow tempo. His guitar playing, on top of that, is behind the beat--just the way Iceman likes it. Perfection, in my view. It doesn't get any better, black or white.
Two different white guys in that video. Don't make the mistake of thinking that they're doing exactly the same thing, or manifesting the same depth of funk--even though they're making excellent music together.
Adam sez: "His guitar playing, on top of that, is behind the beat--just the way Iceman likes it."
I enjoy behind the beat in blues. In funk, I enjoy anticipation of the beat.
I do enjoy a white band's approach to funk if it is done (from my real life experience) correctly. Saw these guys live, and they do it correctly, for sure!
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Feb 12, 2018 7:19 AM
Paul Mack might be a funky guitarist, but his drum work as a one man band sounds one dimensional to my ears compared to the other video. With that that said, this type of drum set up has never sounded full to me, but then again, the percussionist is limited to what they can do. Honestly, I hear what Indigo hears, though it is immaterial what the color of their skin is. I might further venture that playing funk in all its glory, necessitates a full drum kit.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Feb 12, 2018 7:22 AM
I can see it takes skill to keep that steady, and I like foot-bass-drum, and even a tambourine for the backbeat. But kicking a snare? The snare is a supposed to be subtle instrument, especially in funk - ghost notes, dynamics, timbres and all that. If it's just a steady boom-chuck wanted, I can't help thinking a drum machine would serve better.
MindTheGap sez: "If it's just a steady boom-chuck wanted, I can't help thinking a drum machine would serve better."
At the dawn of the creation of funk, (at least Detroit style), that steady bass drum on 1 and 3 with snare pop on 2 and 4 was the real life drummer offering - with a fill after every "X" number of even measures....it's all about HOW you play that simple pattern... ---------- The Iceman
That's interesting. I'll have to go and listen. So much music, so little time! Can you recommend a couple of tracks to start me off?
(To be fair, I don't suppose they were hitting the snare with a kick-drum pedal, and he doesn't do the fills, but I take the point)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 12, 2018 10:13 AM
I think drummers will agree that when Mr Brown moved the accent to the One( downbeat not back beat)( similar to 2nd line music)rather than emphasize 2 and 4 - funk was the result
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Feb 12, 2018 2:01 PM
Thanks. I will listen with interest. I was thinking of Clyde Stubblefield and similar styles when I made my comment. Yes, The One, but everything else subject to much syncopation - on the drums as well as everything else.
Gap- it was Clyde he joined around 65 when brown changed his style(previous drummer Melvin Parker was drafted) Clyde had that 2nd line feel more than the old Gospel and swing styles As for the ghost notes- Jabo Starks- Browns other drummer was the master
Well, it's about groove. It's not about race because there are some brothers who can't cop a groove to save their life even though the idiom originated with black musicians. And having good time is necessary but not sufficient to play funky. You definitely have got to feel it in order to play it. The vids Adam has put up are great. But I gotta disagree with Adam to a certain extent about Paul Mack. Yes, his guitar playing is superlatively funky. Really good. But his one man drumming is too straight to be funky. Very good time but no groove. The difference between his guitar playing and his drumming is an excellent example of the difference between playing with a funky groove and merely playing with good time.
hvyj: The argument about Mack's drumming is one worth having. In one sense I agree with you. He's just playing 1-2-3-4. He's just dead on the beat. But if you've ever tried to keep that sort of dead-straight beat with your two feet--and I try to do this all the time, and never perfectly execute--you'd realize just how hard what he does is. I can't really explain why I think it's so good. I BELIEVE that it's so good because it's absolutely perfect, dead-on timekeeping, and it thus lays down a perfect background for the funkiness of the guitar. Footdrums in that respect are very different from a drummer on a trapset. But I may be wrong. There's some magic going on; I really don't know where it's sourced.
That Bill Withers track get my vote for The Funkiest. Bill himself is just strumming a constant pattern, while everyone else is 'one-ing' and syncopating all over the shop. Including of course the extraordinary drum groove.
So I suppose that reminds there is room for a constant pattern in the funk. There's the acoustic guitar here and the 16th note high hat pattern. Often a tambourine? So the constant foot drum ought to be legit. I get the idea, but somehow it doesn't sound quite convincing. Sorry :(
@1847: Thanks much! "All" was a fun one. The second one "Going Somewhere" (title track from my last album) has two members of the NOLA funk band Galactic, Jeff Raines and Robert Mercurio (on guitar and bass, respectively).