Rgsccr
483 posts
Jan 19, 2018
10:13 AM
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Hi,
I have mixed pursing with tongue blocking over the years, but am moving more in the direction of TB. I really have a problem with TB on the first two holes - or, rather, I can't do it. I am so right-handed (I guess you could say right-mouthed). So I generally purse the first two holes, and TB the rest. Is this a common issue, and is it worth trying to learn to TB out of the other side of my mouth?
Thanks.
Rich
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Spderyak
184 posts
Jan 19, 2018
11:53 AM
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I don't know about others but I did learn to TB out of each side of my mouth as well as lip pursing.
I mix them up to my hearts content.
It just made sense to learn all.
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mr_so&so
1074 posts
Jan 19, 2018
3:52 PM
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I started lip pursing and eventually switched to 100% TB. I found tongue switching to get the 1 hole to be extremely awkward at first but persisted until it wasn't. I TB the 2 hole on the right. I believe that lots of players LP the one hole, so you're not alone.
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The Iceman
3454 posts
Jan 19, 2018
4:50 PM
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Jerry Portnoy used to purse the first 3 holes and simulate a tongue slap. Then he would TB the rest of the harmonica. This is also included in his excellent CD Blues Harmonica Instructional Box.
However, since then, he is now TB'ing those first 3 holes, but his tongue will rest on the comb to the left of hole 1.
Learning to TB on the right side is a great way to complete a total immersion in harmonica technique for the serious student, but is really not used much at all in blues - it is used a lot in traditional, folk style tunes played on the harmonica, though.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jan 19, 2018 4:51 PM
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SuperBee
5202 posts
Jan 19, 2018
6:34 PM
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That is interesting about JP. Several years ago I asked him about that advice he gave re lipping 1-3. He said he used to block everything but found it was giving him an asymmetrical embouchure, so changed to the lipping on 1-3x I was not aware he had subsequently changed back
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Rishió
2 posts
Jan 19, 2018
6:51 PM
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I TB 100% of the holes, including all bends using both sides of my tongue. For holes 1-3, I TB by blocking the right holes with the left side of my tongue. For holes 4-10, I TB by blocking the left holes with the right side of my tongue. So I basically tongue switch at hole 3. I like switching TB at hole 3 rather than hole 1 because I balance out using both sides of my throat for a close to symmetrical embouchure, and my lips never veer too close to the edge of the Harp making it all much more comfortable. On a side note, I also prefer to use the underside of my tongue to TB because it allows me to get a pucker-like ”trumpet sound” to my notes as my tongue can reach the roof of my mouth to give the note a bit of definition when wanted. Not as much as I would get when I used to use pucker (yet) and I can’t do the diddly-doo trick, but it’s something. I prefer to keep it simple and do 100% TB rather than switch between pucker and TB. I think if you just practice pure TB on both sides for a month, you’ll get it. My 2 cents!
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Littoral
1553 posts
Jan 20, 2018
7:25 AM
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What Iceman said, per Portnoy: "However, since then, he is now TB'ing those first 3 holes, but his tongue will rest on the comb to the left of hole 1."
I'll add that this is, to me, the obvious and natural way to do it and I wonder what's happening if you didn't gravitate towards it anyway.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jan 20, 2018 7:32 AM
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Mirco
570 posts
Jan 20, 2018
10:17 AM
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I tongue all the holes. I don't tongue switch, though. For holes 1-2, my tongue will actually be on the comb to the left of the holes.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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Rgsccr
484 posts
Jan 20, 2018
11:50 AM
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Thanks guys - all good and interesting responses. I will keep at it. I am confused, Iceman, about your comment "Learning to TB on the right side is a great way to complete a total immersion in harmonica technique for the serious student, but is really not used much at all in blues - it is used a lot in traditional, folk style tunes played on the harmonica, though." Do you mean that most TBers use both sides of their mouth, and very few use only the right side?
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Littoral
1554 posts
Jan 20, 2018
12:30 PM
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Very few block the right side to play the left. Blocking for both sides to play octaves being different - and not really what is TB.
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SuperBee
5207 posts
Jan 20, 2018
1:03 PM
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I switch between left and right to jump between holes 1 and 4 sometimes. I’ve tried it for jumps higher up but it never caught on.
I don’t tongue block hole 1 unless I block to the right. Usually I pucker hole 1. I tried the tongue on the wood thing and found it just seemed unnecessary, usually I block hole 2 and just do a lift to get hole 1
Hummel actually told me he blocks hole 1 to the right, switching from left at hole 2.
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The Iceman
3455 posts
Jan 20, 2018
1:14 PM
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Rgsccr asks "Do you mean that most TBers use both sides of their mouth, and very few use only the right side?"
Not understanding this sentence as written, but I think you are asking if blues players will put tongue on right side to play single hole from the left side. If so, Littoral's answer is a good one.
Best example I've heard recently of Tongue on right side was in a live recording of Lindisfarne in which their harmonica player just goes off during his solo, which began pretty blues oriented and then veered into olde tyme traditional melodic style playing - notes with chordal accompaniment. Great band, btw. You Brits will know what I mean - after all, The Fog on the Tyne is all yours all yours, right?
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The Iceman
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Rgsccr
485 posts
Jan 20, 2018
1:21 PM
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Iceman, my bad - I did a poor job of explaining what I meant. What I do is put the tongue on the left side, and play out of the right side of my mouth. I assume you are saying this is the way most guys generally play.
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1847
4651 posts
Jan 20, 2018
9:18 PM
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if you play an octave you absolutely are tongue blocking. you simply need to focus your attention on hole one and cease playing hole 4.
or vise versa. "corner switching"
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Dragonbreath
99 posts
Jan 21, 2018
4:00 AM
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Part of why I TB when playing with mic is because I can block the upper holes with my cheek. It gives me a far better tone IMHO. It also allows me for better and more comfortable total grip and cup around harp and mic. I just can't play pucker holding this way, my mouth would have to twist way too much to the side, but TB is perfectly natural and relaxed. No problems with hole 1-2, I have my tongue on comb and evn the edge of the harp is in the corner of my mouth, I seal around the comb there when playing holes 1-3.
I can TB from both sides, like 1847 said "corner switching". I learnt it just for one lick and had to learn to TB from the other side just to be able to corner switch fast. But it was fun and totally worth it and I enjoy woodshedding challenging excersises. So IMHO I recommend anyone learning it, it will only make you a better player, but don't do it for enabling TB on holes 1-2. I think focus on learning to TB holes 1-2 normally.
I don't understand this focus on "symmetrical" embouchure. Never heard of the concept. Either it is not compatible with TB'ng or irrelevant to the question.
Last Edited by Dragonbreath on Jan 21, 2018 4:59 AM
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Rishió
3 posts
Jan 21, 2018
9:38 AM
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Regarding symmetrical embouchure, I think it’s useful info because when I used to TB holes 2-10 by blocking the left side of my throat (and tongue switching for just hole 1), my right side felt stressed and overused. Now that I TB holes 1-3 by blocking the right side and holes 4-10 by blocking the left side, the stress has gone away and both sides of my throat feel like they get about an equal amount of workout. I think this is important in regards to why it’s important to switch when TBing
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Spderyak
187 posts
Jan 22, 2018
1:30 PM
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On the high end I usually switch at the 7 depending on the riff. IT's a couple of Big Walter tunes that I switch sides fairly regularly.
I don't know if he was a left handed player or not....
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1847
4665 posts
Jan 25, 2018
8:24 PM
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" but don't do it for enabling TB on holes 1-2. I think focus on learning to TB holes 1-2 normally"
i find this to be a little confusing. the only way to tongue block hole one is to block the notes on the right and play from the left side.
you can attack the note from the other side and that is fine, i do that all the time however, the tongue is not blocking anything, i would consider that pucker or lip pursing.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jan 25, 2018 8:29 PM
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snowman
313 posts
Jan 27, 2018
9:55 AM
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I learned tb late in the game ---way late---But now use tongue backbeats,slaps,blocking-but on holes 1n2, If I do block Im on the comb side
So I guess I have the same problem as u Rgsccr
When I want to scoop deep I practice tb and pucker but lean towards pucker on big scoops and bends-not proud of it, but thats the truth
for fun and to very the boogie bassline I now practice the low end boogie w/ as much tb as possible and backbeats
-----and the high end boogie starting on blow 6 over the I chord----Blow 7 on IV chord and a weird fill starting on draw 8 over the V chord ---not that good at it --those high end notes, jam up with the slightest spit build up----I try to use backbeats
By back beats I mean the same thing stevie ray V does at beginning of "pride in joy" Do[ta] Do{ta] ----[ta} being the quick backbeat-
jerry portnoire 3 cd explains it well
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haziz
8 posts
May 29, 2018
3:25 PM
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Tuberculosis is experiencing a resurgence, and is a major public health crisis in view of the multi drug resistant mycobacteria........sorry, wrong TB......
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Night
1 post
May 31, 2018
4:17 AM
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Does anyone have any tips for TB bending hole 2? I'm a beginner and can TB bend holes 3 and 4 okay, but hole 2 is not working. For this hole, my airstream seems "loose" and there seems to be a lot of escaping air. I guess I'm failing to get a good seal, but I'm not sure what to change.
FWIW, I can get the 2-hole bend puckered and can mostly get the 2-hole TB bend with a Golden Melody, but not a Marine Band (my preferred harp).
On a related note, does anyone use TB for everything except holes 1 and 2 draw bends? I'm not sure that I want to concede defeat on the 2-draw TB bend just yet, but I've considered this.
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SuperBee
5409 posts
May 31, 2018
4:52 AM
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Rats, lost the post when internet dropped off
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Littoral
1608 posts
May 31, 2018
5:08 AM
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Tongue block for octaves, yes it is but to me what is really the deal with tongue blocking is what happens with the millisecond of chord you get before the single note. That's where the big sound comes from - the pre-note piece of chord. I don't know how others describe this but it doesn't come up often with TB discussions and I think it is the most valuable part of TB.
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SuperBee
5411 posts
May 31, 2018
6:13 AM
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Gday Night,
Seem like you already have the technique. There’s no big difference in bending tb or lipped just your keeping the tip of the tongue on the harp which seems kinda odd at first. If you are doing that on 3 and 4 (and 2 on a GM) that says to me that you’ve got it. It’s just a question of how you move your tongue to get the bend. If you can do this for the 2 on aGM you can do it on a MB.
It could be your particular mb has a difficult reed setup, or it could be that you’re not getting your lips around the marine band shape. I’d persist. Try to relax your lips
If you look further up the thread you’ll see comments about players lipping 1-3 and tb everything else (for bends).
I dunno anyone who just lips 1 and 2 but they are probably about. Personally I lip 1 most the time mainly because I see little use in just sitting the tongue on the comb if it’s not blocking anything but maybe that is more comfortable for some.
I can’t imagine playing hole 2 just lipped, because I do so much blocking effect there including the bend it would seem awkward and clumsy to have to switch embouchure for the bend. But Ronnie shellist does it and sounds great so it’s clear there are more ways to dpo things than exist in my comfort zone
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SuperBee
5412 posts
May 31, 2018
6:20 AM
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Littoral, what you mention above is where Dave Barrett begins the discussion of tb. The slap, as he calls it, is the first technique he teaches, followed by the pull (kind of the same as the slap but in reverse) and the flutter. Most other things are variation and combinations of these. But you’re right, many discussions bog down on the ‘tone’ argument or focus on bending where the real thing about tongue blocking is texture and articulation
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Night
2 posts
May 31, 2018
10:56 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts, SuperBee. I shall persist on the TB 2-draw bend.
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nowmon
173 posts
Jun 01, 2018
6:34 AM
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When I first played harp,1968, the paper that came with the Marine Band ,decribed the way to play the harp was a TB style. After a bit I started using the purse lip style.Another style I developed was on the 4 hole up to the 10 hole,was to TB only the bottom half of the hole I was blowing in, this I used when I was playing fast licks.So when I play now I use the three styles and switch at random, its accordingly to the best tone for the song.....
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