I really don't get the fuss about James cotton, personal opinion fair enough, but nah he ain't no good, more chance of making it in my top ten of drummers...
I'm not adverse to little polemic to get the discussion going, but is MBH really going to go this way? I hope not. There's the rest of the Internet for this kind of thing.
Next thread: "Professional harp players are furious about this secret technique"
If all of James Cotton you saw and heard was in the last 30 yrs., you ain`t seen shit.In the 60`s & 70`sCotton was doing back flips off the stage ,honkin all the wile.powerful vocals,and more heavy tone on that harp through the pa.I got to see it all.....Also 50 yrs. from now they`ll still be discussing J.C. ,
Last Edited by nowmon on Dec 15, 2017 9:09 AM
Sharpharp is unnecessarily provocative, but still, that opinion must be allowed. I happen to share it when it comes to JC being somewhat overvalued. And yes, even in the 70´s. That "Hard again" disc is stone cold dead for me now; Muddy in the 50´s though is very much alive.
Mr. Cotton was one of the players who fired me up in the 70's to even dare to try and play a harp. He's always been a solid guy, a musician from early on who learned from Rice Miller aka SBII and then put his own signature into his style. He was fronting his own band as a teen. He's toured the world with his own outfit and he graced Muddy's stage. How many of you detractors can say 10% of that for your own selves? Sure, every opinion ought to be heard. But most of the time I try to be polite and keep mine to myself. I do wonder if the OP is just trying to stir some crap and get noticed? My suggestion is to post some audio or video of his own playing and let's see how he stands up to a true great. I know where I stand and I'm ok with it. ----------
Having considered some past posts by sharpharp my take is trolling, not "unnecessarily provocative."
Cotton's playing is really good. Top ten lists are personal, and trying to arrive at a consensus for the best 10 is a waste of time, but at times interesting.
A strong expression of disdain toward someone revered by others is a deliberate act of sowing discord as opposed to engaging in discussion. The way the original post was presented shows the intent. ----------
he does not have to be the best harmonica player .... just good enough share the stage with..
Gregg Allman William "Billy Boy" Arnold Elvin Bishop Mike Bloomfield Joe Bonamassa Paul Butterfield Grateful Dead Pat Hare Howlin' Wolf Janis Joplin B.B. King Freddie King Alexis Korner Steve Miller Charlie Musselwhite Quicksilver Messenger Service Keith Richards Todd Rundgren Santana Willie "Big Eyes" Smith Otis Spann Taj Mahal Big Mama Thornton Jimmie Vaughan Joe Louis Walker Muddy Waters Sonny Boy Williamson Johnny Winter
Live and on the move is a great album. James Cotton's band was also totally awesome too. I agree that he had one of the greatest back up bands of all time. That album got lots of comments from non-blues and non harmonica players when they came over to hang out at my house. He played the kind of music that got a room moving or kept the energy at a party alive as far as my limited D.J. skills went. Him and M.J. always kept it fresh and moving.
Sharpharp it seems also keeps things moving and fresh. Definitely provocative!
@MindTheGap, you won the internet today for that amazing response.
Cotton was undeniably one of the heavy hitters in the post-Little Walter world of blues harp. His abilities far outnumber my own (to say the least), and I've always enjoyed listening to his records for that powerful tone he got. Is he my favorite? Probably not, but like 1847 implied, he doesn't have to be the greatest in the world to be appreciated. Not to mention the fact that Cotton kept making and making records, kept playing, and stayed active for a lot longer than some of the other golden age players.
Also, the dood died this year. Can we have a slightly longer moratorium on reducing his body of work to "lmao"?
I agree with most everyone here except OP. Great singer, unique tone, and the most badass blues band. If he was good enough to play with Muddy Waters he’s definetly good enough to be in the top 10 of blues harmonica players. Now his hayday was over 40 years ago so new folks have come and changed the game but I guarantee if you ask any of today’s top players they’ll cite him as a major influence. I put him ahead of Musselwhite. ---------- AJ Silverberg www.hearaj.com
I agree with most everyone here except OP. Great singer, unique tone, and the most badass blues band. If he was good enough to play with Muddy Waters he’s definetly good enough to be in the top 10 of blues harmonica players. Now his hayday was over 40 years ago so new folks have come and changed the game but I guarantee if you ask any of today’s top players they’ll cite him as a major influence. I put him ahead of Musselwhite. ---------- AJ Silverberg www.hearaj.com
You all should really stop responding to this guy. He really just wants your attention by saying the most ridiculous things.
To be fair, jbone, this guy doesn't need to post his own playing. The validity of his opinion doesn't depend on his playing ability. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
Last Edited by Mirco on Dec 15, 2017 9:36 AM
Mirco, "To be fair", I have my links below my posts. An opinion with no backup is not worth a lot to me. I'm no Cotton but I am willing to show what I have, and share it with anyone who's interested. As I said above Cotton was one of my early and big influences. Perhaps I could let a comment like that slide but in this case I didn't. As a grown man and a 45 year player I'm as entitled to anyone to express when I feel the need. This joint used to be the wild west as I recall, and it's toned down considerably. I respect Adam's and Nate's efforts to provide a well mannered and helpful forum. ----------
I can understand why someone might think that about cotton. Some of his stuff can be just "ok". But when you hear his real stuff .... man. And while he may not be super technical all the time ... he's got that power house drive that's just infectious. And the funky horns and stuff on 100% Cotton ... love em.
It's funny how personal taste can very so greatly. For me Hard Again is awful. It may be the harp sound I hate the most. Not cottons playing on the album, but just that rough solid state amplified sound. Like nails on a chalkboard,imo.
Also sometimes it just takes time to get an artist. I'm sure yall remember my Kim Wilson thread .... now he's one of my favorite players. Blows my mind. I don't understand how I couldn't hear it before, but ... I didn't get it, lol.
J bone... I 100% agree. A person's playing has EVERYTHING to do with it. How good a person can play has great impact on the weight of a players statements and opinions.
I saw Cotton in 1975, opening for the J. Geils Band. I was 17 years old. It changed my life. Yes, he was THAT powerful. But you had to be there. YouTube videos just don't begin to capture his power.
But I will say to each their own And your playing ability ( or lack there)of has zero to do with your ability to appreciate music and have a valid opinion
Here at less than his fullpowers, Cotton makes Keith's rather weak slide playing sound legit ( before we get started I am a Keith fan but his slide playing was never as good as Brians-even with all the extra years to work on it)
I never got to see him- lucky you Adam!- But I somehow recognized the raw power he had early on. YT was such a blessing to be able to see him on video. His version of "23 Hours Too Long" was the very first song I learned on chromatic in 3rd position. Not that I do what he did but the inspiration- just WOW. ----------
Those earlier albums and the live ones with his kick ass band are monumental - HOWEVER - they are totally weak when compared to seeing his live shows. That's how powerfully huge he was! ---------- The Iceman
I thought the cotton and richards video was atrocious. i can agree with the op, in regards to his playing at that point. well past his prime. heck he was what 80 years old? he deserves some slack.
You are entitled to youropinion of course There would be no music producers or a and r folks or engineers etc if they used your criteria since many dont play and artists trust their ears
But anyway--Cotton was a heck of a player
And oh yeah as a drummer I have played with George Benson,Ivan Boogaloo Jones,some later versions of the McCoys, the Ronettes etc But I dont think it makes me a better judge than ahmet ertagun , sam Phillips Rudt Van Gelder etc
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Dec 15, 2017 12:56 PM
At least I got paid Wouldnt be an A R guy -they discover talent I doubt you have even been in a recording studio or know much about the music business. But thats ok when you know it all
@Killa The Stones album was a one-off, a fluke, they had the tape rolling and were having a good time. No A&R involved, AFAIK. RIP James Cotton, respect!
Unless you are a drummer= you probably dont know enuff to speak If you are talking about harp-- I never claimed to be good as its my 6th instrument-yet I have fun with it and have even been paid to record remember Bob Dylans first recording gigs were as a harmonica side man for Carolyn Hester But thats my last comment on this because its not the point of the topic
The topic title is too ridiculous to an intelligent answer to. Even a stupid answer would be too much work. It's one thing to say you don't care for someone's work and to make a case , and it's another to troll. This is trolling, whether sharpharp realizes it or not. ---------- http:www.ted-burke.com
Hmmm, well, I'm the one who works for Suzuki. Ask Ted if I can play. And here's a quote from the LA Times (Sunday, Dec 10, 2017) from an article about the Stones, an interview with Keith Richard-- http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/la-et-ms-rolling-stones-on-air-bbc-20171201-story.html The quote follows--
“Blue & Lonesome” album, the Stones’ homage to vintage American blues, R&B and soul music that collected a Grammy Award nomination for traditional blues album.
“I’m really happy with the last album, the blues album,” he said. “It was one of the things we felt we had to do, but it worked out really great.”
Does that mean we might see a sequel one day soon?
“We’re working on some new [material] now,” he said. “There’s a new album in the works. We’re slowly putting it together.”
As for another modern-day collection of their favorite old blues numbers, Richards uttered another lascivious laugh and said, “I’m going to sound like Trump now: ‘Trust me. We’re working on it.’”
About whether our member Gnarly can play. I speak from my experience with him.
Gnarly is a fine harmonica player, as I had the chance to play with him at a pick up gig in San Diego, where we both live. He will tell out outright that he doesn't consider himself a harmonica player primarily , and regards himself more as a guitarist. A sweet and agile guitarist he is, able to play in a variety of styles--blues, jazz, funk, samba, bossa nova--with a warm , professional grace and a wonderful sense of melodic invention when he improvises. Like wise for his chromatic harmonica work, on which he demonstrated a delightful versatility. He does what we want a quality harmonica accompanist/soloist to do, to serve the song, creating texture and mood in the background and building a narrative in his soloing, beginning with a simple statement and deftly, elegantly making the improvisation more difficult, varying his phrases between quick , long lines and brief flurries. Did I mention that his chord work on the thing is quite an earful to behold.
Gary is a fine guitarist, a fine harmonica player, a very fine musician. And he's a good guy with a quick and good natured wit. ---------- http:www.ted-burke.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Dec 15, 2017 4:22 PM
I can appreciate greatness. I know Louis Armstrong was a great trumpet player even though I never touched a trumpet in my life. I'm not a great harmonica player by any stretch but I do know the difference between good and great. James Cotton was great. I saw Cotton perform back in the 1980s and can tell you he was one of the best. Which brings me to the list of great harmonica players elsewhere on this forum. I have to wonder when I see Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler on the list. Were they put on the list by people who have heard great harp playing or because they are famous and popular and they are the best players those people have heard ? Are those guys good? In the context of their music, yes. Am I a better than they are? No and I damn sure don't have anywhere near as much money as they do. To achieve greatness, one must be much better than good. I'm getting off the subject here and I'm sorry for rambling on. RIP James Cotton. By the way, can we keep this discourse more civil, please? We are all adults here, I think. Edit: I think Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler are great artists, just not great harmonica players.
Last Edited by DanP on Dec 15, 2017 5:43 PM
@ killa,I was wondering where you have been,you used to be more involved here.But to say that because one guys negative post chapped your ass that this forum has gotten ugly with bickering people, I,ll have to disagree.Things have been very tame on MBH and the monitors do a great job at keeping it that way. So as far as I,m concerned your take is totally off track and as far as I,m concerned your the one throwing stones on this one.Let it go,is what I say.As Rodney King once said "Can,t We All Just Get Along" On another note pertaining to the original post as far as J.C. goes his Live And On The Move album took me to a totally different level back in 74 when I was a sixteen yr old kid playing Climax Blues Blues Band(FM)live material in a high school band thinking I was all that.After hearing James it opened a whole new world for me as far as blues harpers go. After hearing and playing along to that I was buying any blues harp albums that I could find and as far as I,m concerned I owe it all to James and I told him that on many occasions.I have many stories from the late,late hours with James but thats a whole different topic.Have A Great Nite Folks and Great weekend.
Last Edited by NiteCrawler . on Dec 15, 2017 4:43 PM
Wow, this is a fun thread that takes me back to the wild west days of Harp-l in the late 1990's when Buddha, Iron Mike, and others would very entertainingly stir the sh!t on a regular basis!!
As for Cotton, I never saw him during his prime, so I can't personally relate to those statements people make about how he was the greatest.
That said, he was a big influence on some of my favorite players, including William Clarke and Kim Wilson. So I have a great deal of respect for his legacy on the instrument.
Re: opinions, I believe the opinions of non-players and unskilled players about music have value in these types of discussions. And at the same time, skilled players will naturally have a much deeper understanding of the technical side of the music they are hearing and the dedication and passion involved in making music, and so the opinions of skilled players carry a lot of weight with me...that said, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll agree with anyone's opinion, skilled or not. :-)
Also, I'm glad to see that Killa now digs Kim Wilson. Told 'ya so, LOL!
james cotton on the harmonica... Derek trucks on the slide guitar... for the life of me, i cannot tell who is playing the stratocaster. sounds a bit like clapton, or bob margolin.
i want to call that song out at a jam tomorrow but no way can i remember all the the lyrics.
