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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
In pursuit of volume: what speaker?
In pursuit of volume: what speaker?
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Martin
1340 posts
Dec 13, 2017
11:51 AM
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It has dawned on me, slowly, reluctantly, that my 5 W tube amp is not cutting the mustard with one of the bands that I´m in. Not even miced.
This is a blues band and they play loud. Too loud. Even at rehearsals. But it´s their way.
My options are twofold: quitting the band: I would hesitate to do that ´cause they get the occasional gig, which I like, and they are a group of nice guys who really appreciate my contribution to the band (whenever they hear me in between the feedback wailing),
or,
finding something to play through that increases my output.
(No, I´m not going to tell them to turn down. If they should do that, at my behest, it would most probably be just temporary, "for my sake", and I´m in no way interested in becoming the anxious volume custodian, which would be my position with a hard hitting drummer and two guitar guys with those big Fender amps. Then I´d rather quit.)
As it is I have had to retort to pedals, and my last option is now my RP 150 with Richard H´s settings.
I have a severely limited budget. A new 100W amp or so is totally out of the question. But then I realised that I own some speakers.
My question is if anybody cares to answer, what kind/size of speaker is preferable for harmonica -- from a *general* perspective?
I fully understand that a new amp head etc make all the difference, but as it is now I´m just trying to calculate my costs and get som input on the matter if my speakers are useful at all. (There are other treads here were people speak of amps, small and large and SS or tube and so on and I follow them.)
I´m terribly ignorant and I apologize in advance.
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indigo
429 posts
Dec 13, 2017
7:26 PM
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What brand is your amp?
What is the speaker in there already?
Does the amp have more than than one speaker output,ie will it feed a 4 ohm load?
What are the speakers you have already to choose from?
"from a general perspective" is impossible to answer,there just to many variables..believe me i have been there .
But if you can answer the above questions people will probably be able to at least give you some advice.
"efficiency" is the key word when judging speakers for their ability to transform input into volume output.
Last Edited by indigo on Dec 13, 2017 7:30 PM
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1847
4579 posts
Dec 13, 2017
9:09 PM
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i have a Champagne diet,,,, with a beer budget.. can you help a brother out?
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shakeylee
715 posts
Dec 13, 2017
9:26 PM
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Well,you’ll push more air with more speakers ,but, 5watts is never going to be that loud.
I like 1x12,2x10,4x10 and combinations thereof,like an 8,10 and 12 at the same time.
Where do you live? If you live near philly,you could try my bass man or masco .
We might be able to find you a budget amp on Craigslist too.
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www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on Dec 13, 2017 9:26 PM
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Martin
1341 posts
Dec 14, 2017
5:47 AM
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@indigo & shakylee:
Yes, I realise that there are quite a few variables here. And maybe I wasn´t clear: I fully comprehend that the 5W amp will not suffice, and that I need a new solution for this particular band. The 5W Tweed-Tone is sort of out of the picture: it does not get loud enough even for micing it to the PA -- and then I´m on volume 11 of 12.
Therefore, the speakers that I own could possibly, I thought, be a starting point for a new arrangement. (I will check their measurements.) They look kind of handy and it annoys me a bit that they are just sitting there unused.
My hunch was that there were perhaps speakers of some kind that were totally unusable, or really suited, for a good raspy sound.
I live in Gothenburg, Sweden, quite a bit from Philly I´m afraid.
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Barley Nectar
1326 posts
Dec 14, 2017
6:37 AM
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Most harp players use 10" speakers. I have found that good musical instrument speakers that are voiced towords the blues guitar player will work well for the tone that I look for. Most salvage speakers are not suited to live gigs. That distorted, raspy tone that is gotten from small amps and cheep speakers will not cut thru the mix in a live situation. I look for a more bold, cutting, clean tone as opposed to a papery, tweedish, tradisional
tone for live work. Your answer, without springing for a Bassman, Concert or a Twin, may be the band PA. Playing thru a Shure 57 thru pedals and into the board will definatly get you heard. I personally prefer a powerfull tube amp but I have no idea what is available in Sweden. Get on Facebook and contact Arnenum Amp, he is a Swede and he builds harp amps. Maybe he can help you out. Good Guy. Tell him Goose sent you. Get some ear plugs too, you need them. Good luck.
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Dec 14, 2017 6:45 AM
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Martin
1342 posts
Dec 14, 2017
2:30 PM
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@BN. Shit. Speakers were only 8".
I´ve tried the pedal option: SM57 -- transformer -- LW Harp Octave -- American Sound -- delay (and some other combos), but no joy: I get a great sound, especially in view of the fact that it´s all coming from pedals, but I can´t match them volume wise.
These guys plays Elmore James, LW and such stuff, and the harmonica can´t be too clean there, that´s my notion (shared by thousands). Otherwise I´ve nothing at all against a clean warm tone -- can almost say I prefer it.
Arnenym builds amplifiers (I believe he crops up on this forum every now and then) but I don´t think he falls under the "budget" heading. These guys rarely do, for obvious reasosns, so nothing at all against him. I have tried one of them (a friend owns it) and yes, it sounded good -- if not particularly loud.
Yes, thank you, ear plugs. Two of the guys in that band have damaged ears, but has that stopped them? It´s weird, but there´s a certain feeling to playing loud, certainly on a guitar, and they are ruled by that.
Thanks for the input. I got some thinking to do.
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shakeylee
716 posts
Dec 14, 2017
7:44 PM
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If you already own a joyo American sound,I think a great budget option would be to buy a cheap ,loud,solid state amp .
Here,it would be something like a crate 60 watt amp,they practically give them away used. Solid state fenders,Yamahas,behringers,Peavey etc. will do the job.
I don’t know what the Swedish equivalent would be.
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www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on Dec 14, 2017 7:46 PM
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indigo
430 posts
Dec 14, 2017
9:02 PM
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You 'should' be able to mike a 5W amp into a PA and blow people's eardrums out of their sockets.
What mike are you using to mike the amp?..and where are you placing it in relation to the amps speaker?
Edge,middle? 1",2" away?
Makes a huge difference where you place the mike.
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1847
4580 posts
Dec 14, 2017
9:50 PM
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the issue is... how do you hear the amp? if it is in the back line, it can be easily drowned out.
if you are not the person singing, you can on occasion position yourself towards the pa column.
in ear monitors may also help, however i have no experience with them.
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Barley Nectar
1327 posts
Dec 14, 2017
9:59 PM
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Believe it or not, I have heard miced up, small amps disapear in a mix. A simple mix at that. Just heard it happen last saturday in Pittsburgh. When the small amps gets pushed, and they always do, they go mushy and sag excessivly. The power supply can't handle the load. It's in the PA but so is everything else. The harp just fades away and comes back when things calm down. If you want to be heard you need POWER! Weather it be from PA, SS, Tubes or a big freekin bull horn, you need Power. Power = Watts. If you can't get your tone from a clean rig, your tone may not be comming from you. Good luck and enjoy your band. You'll figure it out...
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SuperBee
5123 posts
Dec 15, 2017
12:42 AM
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I’ve heard a Harpgear 50 disappear into a mix, miked up. It was weird.
I was in the audience and approached the sound guy, suggested the harp player might like us to hear him.
Soundy said, he’s actually sitting on top of the mix, if I turn him up he’ll be too loud. He proceeded to demonstrate.
I confess, I didn’t get it. How could he be on top of the mix, and inaudible?
The sound of that band was just so dense I think, there was no space for the harp to be heard
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Martin
1343 posts
Dec 15, 2017
5:54 AM
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@shakylee: That´s something to consider. I believe Laney is sort of the standard budget SS option over here. And now comes the Fender Mustangs, where Richard Hunter is fiddling with some harmonica settings.
@indigo: Yes, it´s tempting to agree with you: One "should" be able ... Mic is a SM57, placed slightly to the right against amp speaker. PA up to red line, straight setting except for low on treble. It simply ain´t enough. Then PA -- as well as amp -- starts squeling. It´s a pityful situation, but that´s 5W for ya.
@1847: No, I don´t sing. And this is in the rehearsal room, amp can be place pretty much anywhere -- but those guys are loud.
@Barley: I hear you! I´m not that worried about my tone, which of course could be delusional, but still, it sort of works. Watts appear to be mig bigger problem.
@Super: That guy maybe, like I, ought to have a heart to heart with the band. Except that I´m bowing out from that ...
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shakeylee
717 posts
Dec 16, 2017
11:26 AM
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I completely understand the volume thing.
There is a blues band in philly that I was with for a few years . I still do fill in work for them.
No amount of tantrums would stop them from being too loud for a harmonica.
I didn’t even use my bass man with them. I used to use a Deville and a solid state Yamaha.
I could get the Yamaha really loud with no feedback .
Harmonica players from all over would want to see my rig. They couldn’t believe it was a SS amp.
They are loud!!
So ,it really comes down to,if I accept the gig,I have to understand that they will be too loud,and my ribs will hurt.
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www.shakeylee.com
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www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on Dec 16, 2017 11:27 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
941 posts
Dec 17, 2017
1:32 AM
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I wonder, to what extent have Peaveys infiltrated the Swedish amp population? "Peavey" is my standard answer for anyone having a budget or volume problem. With $200 and about 4 hours, I can find a Peavey, somewhere in Dallas, that can keep up with just about anything. Hell, I've got a house full of them.
Something I recently observed when I heard 2 harp players, both playing through the PA, it was difficult to distinguish who was playing what. 2 harp players is pretty unusual, but it got me thinking about all the other voices that are sharing the PA speakers. In some instances, I think you forfeit the "amp as an integral part of your instrument" when you go through the PA.
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MindTheGap
2424 posts
Dec 17, 2017
11:00 AM
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I don't have anything to offer on the speaker suggestions. But picking up the point that amped harp seems to need lots of watts to be heard properly in a mix, compared to say a guitar. I found this puzzling when I first started to play, and I still don't know why it is. Glad to hear the same view from other people.
Hence my railing at the ubiquitous 5W classic harp amp that gets marketed to us hobbyists. I remember the disappointment of first recording something with a band - where's the harp gone??? Ah yes, that sort of buzzing sound.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 17, 2017 11:09 AM
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arnenym
406 posts
Dec 17, 2017
11:45 AM
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You got it right Martin. I do not have the cheapest solutions, but they work. ;)
With such a loud band a 5 watt amp is bound to loose the match.
A bigger amp is the best solution but that's not a option in this case.
I would try some PA- solution instead. Maybe you could contact Johan H. to hear if he have a Lineout box to your amp. Or skip the amp and use some pedals in to PA.
Last Edited by arnenym on Dec 17, 2017 11:57 AM
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Martin
1345 posts
Dec 17, 2017
12:56 PM
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@arnenym: Yes, I know you build quality stuff, Arne.
As it is right now, if an upcoming gig brings some $ I´ll take a closer look at those Fender Mustangs of the somewhat heavier order, and see what Richard Hunter comes up with.
The thing is that my Harp Octave to Joyo American Sound to delay gives a great bluesy sound, but for me to ccompete in the volume match I must sacrifice a whole lot of "Voice" as that knob is called, i. e. grittiness, and in this particular raw blues context that´s not really desirable.
The lineout option was unknown to me and I´ll consider it. Thanks.
Last Edited by Martin on Dec 17, 2017 12:57 PM
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nowmon
152 posts
Dec 19, 2017
3:32 AM
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In the 70`s I used most of the time a fender champ ,miked and got a load of reverb/ volume, through the PA. it sounded great.Then in 1978 I got a 65/30 w.music man 2x10,thats all I`ve been using since.....
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1847
4593 posts
Dec 19, 2017
9:04 AM
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I think its time to bring my champ out of hibernation. i haven't used it in awhile, it can be challenging to use with a loud band, you need a sound man, we should have that covered.
if an amp is going to be mic'd, a small amp is ideal. i have had the sound man mic my bassman, it was so loud that he did not put it in the mix. if you turn down a bassman
so it can be mic'd, it is harder to play. there are always trade off's.
fortunately for me i can set the champ right on top of the bassman and mic it.
if the band wants to get stupid loud we can go there. i can play louder than anyone.
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