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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Playing from scores
Playing from scores
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johan d
92 posts
Oct 17, 2017
10:41 PM
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What is your approach when trying to play a song from sheet music? Until now, I only used Root, 3rd, flat 7th etc.., but no "do, re, mi,..." or "C, E, G,...." kind of systems.
If I have a score in Bb Major, do I take a Bb harp without thinking further or...could I take a C harp and try to find the Bb note?
Because if I take that Bb harp and want to play a Bb from the score, I actually play the root note of that harp - blow 4, let's say.
Next time I have a score in G Major, and than 4 blow is a G, how could one get famiiar with those notes if they change from harp to harp?
Maybe the diatonic harp isn't made for playing from score,but only to improvise...?
thx, Johan
Last Edited by johan d on Oct 17, 2017 10:42 PM
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STME58
2033 posts
Oct 17, 2017
11:30 PM
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You can play from a score with any harp and it will automatically transpose for you. If you see a piece in Bb and you can play the notes on a Bb harp, you can play the piece in any key by just using a harp of the desired key and playing it as if it were a Bb harp. If you want to play the Bb piece on a C harp but still play in in Bb, you have a bit more work to do. This is no different from what a sax trumpet or any other instrument player has to do when presented with a score that is not in the key of their instrument.
There is a difference between the key the music is in and the transposition. If you have a Bb part that is in concert pitch (a flute, trombone, violin or host of other concert pitch instruments part) you would play a Bb (blow 4 on a Bb harp) when you see a Bb. If you were reading an alto sax part (Eb transposition) that appeared in Bb (2 flats) when you saw a Bb you would play a Db.
It's not so much that the diatonic isn't "made for" reading from a score as much as it come in all keys so to be proficient you need to master all 12 transpositions. If you learn to play from a concert pitch score on a C harp, in any key (F,G D, Am and Dm arn't too hard, other keys you may need to skip notes if you can't overblow) you will be about as proficient at reading as someone who only plays scores transposed for thier instrument (most intermediate musicians).
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johan d
93 posts
Oct 18, 2017
12:35 AM
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[STME58]You can play from a score with any harp and it will automatically transpose for you. If you see a piece in Bb and you can play the notes on a Bb harp, you can play the piece in any key by just using a harp of the desired key and playing it as if it were a Bb harp.[STME58]
Yes I can, but first I have to decipher the piece and write under the notes: 4blow, 5draw, 6blow, 7draw, etc for the whole piece. if I learn it that way, I can play it on any harp, but then I didn't learn the notes... I didn't learn to play from score, I did learn the pattern of blows & draws.
And if I did learn the notes, they would be whole different on my next piece wich might be in G.
Last Edited by johan d on Oct 18, 2017 12:51 AM
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Andrew
1698 posts
Oct 18, 2017
4:27 AM
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It looks to me as though you may be trying very hard to make life very difficult.
I may be wrong, but I think it is madness to want to learn every note on every key of diatonic harp.
If the music is complicated enough and there's enough of it and in enough different keys, then probably you need a chromatic.
If the music is simple enough and in only a few keys, then perhaps the best thing is to recognise a D as the dominant and play by interval? Alternatively, if there is little of it, perhaps the best thing is to learn all the notes?
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Oct 18, 2017 4:28 AM
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johan d
94 posts
Oct 18, 2017
4:46 AM
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I am asking your approaches, because it is indeed very hard to learn every not on every harmonica.
The music is very easy, but mostly in another key as C major. How do you play a song from sheet? Thinking of root 3rd 5th, or note names?
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Andrew
1699 posts
Oct 18, 2017
5:00 AM
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Personally I'd probably use a mixture of approaches, depending on the music.
I'd use a mixture of interval reading (3rds, 4ths, etc)
In places I might also sing it first (that would also involve interval or relative pitch reading, as I don't have perfect pitch) and then reproduce the song with the harp.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Oct 18, 2017 5:00 AM
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johan d
95 posts
Oct 18, 2017
5:50 AM
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OK, so you see on the staff; next note is a 4th down, so on the harp a 4th down from 6 blow=...?
Last Edited by johan d on Oct 18, 2017 5:51 AM
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Andrew
1700 posts
Oct 18, 2017
6:50 AM
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I see what you mean.
What I meant was, I suppose, that I'd see each note in relation to the tonic (i.e. that interval).
If you can sight-sing, then you know what the note will sound like and how it relates to the tonic.
(even that connection was reset. I dont'know whether to hate the forum host or my browser!)
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Andrew.
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WinslowYerxa
1462 posts
Oct 18, 2017
11:43 AM
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There’s a cool trick I learned when I played the musical play Big River.
The quick takeaway is that sequences of blow notes and sequences of draw notes will all be on spaces in the staff, or will all be on lines, depending on the key of harmonica
All the Big River harmonica parts are written for different keys of harmonica, all played in second position. But they’re written in the actual key, not transposed for the key of harmonica.
The trick I learnd was to locate Draw 2 (the home note for second position) on the staff.
- If Draw 2 was on a space, then Draw 3, 4, 5, and 6 would also be on spaces. Blow 4-5-6 would be on lines, while Blow 1,2, and 3 would be on spaces.
- If Draw 2 was on a line, then Draw 3, 4, 5, and 6 would also be on lines. Blow 4-5-6 would be on spaces, while Blow 1-2-3 would be on lines.
====DETAILS
To give you an idea, look at the blow notes of a C-harp: C-E-G, C-E-G, C-E-G, C
The first C is middle C, which is on the line below the staff.
E is on the next line up, and G is on the line above that.
So the first three blow notes are all on lines.
What if I had a D-harp instead of a C-harp?
The notes of a D chord are D-F#-A.
D is on the first space above the staff, while F# and A are on the two spaces above that.
===
Some keys of harmonica will have the first note on a line. That sets things up for everything else.
Some keys of harp have the first note on a space. Tha also sets everything up for the rest of the notes.
===
Let’s go back to the C-harp.
The first three blow notes, C-E-G, are all on lines.
But the next three blow notes, C-E-G, in Holes 4, 5, and 6, are all on spaces.
To get from the G in Blow 3 to the C in Blow 4, you go up to the next space AND THEN go one more to the space above that.
The C-E-G in Blow 7, 8, and 9 are on lines again. You go from the G in Blow 6 (first space above the five-line staff) up 4 steps to the C on the second ledger line above the staff.
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What about the draw notes?
The D in Draw 1 is a step above Blow 1. So the D on a C-harp will be the space above the Blow 1 middle C that’s on the line below the staff.
But the G-B-D-F in Draw 2-3-4-5 are all on lines, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th lines on the staff. A is also on a line, but its the first ledger line above the staff.
Going from the A in Draw 6 to the B in Draw 7 is only one scale step, so B will on the space above th first ledger line. and the B-D-F-A that follow will all be on lines as well, as the ledger lines pile up into the dizzying heights of he nosebleed section.
===POSITIONS
If you’re playing in first position, Locate Blow 1. Is it on a line or on a space? the two blow notes to the right will be on the spaces above. If it’s on a line, they’ll be on lines.
Blow 4 will be different from Blow 1. If Blow 1 is on a line, Blow 4 will be on a space. If Blow 1 is on a space, Blow 4 will be on a line.
From the two paragraphs above, you can figure out what will happen in Blow 7, 8, and 9.
If you’re playing in second position, locate DRAW 2. If it’s on a space, Draw 3, 4, 5 and 6 will also be on spaces. If Draw 2 is on a line, Draw 3, 4, 5, and 6 will also bel on lines.
At Draw 7, Draw notes will flip from lines to spaces or from spaces to lines.
For Third position, just start on Draw 4 and adapt the second position template.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Oct 19, 2017 8:09 AM
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florida-trader
1206 posts
Oct 18, 2017
12:41 PM
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Winslow - You're a genius.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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hvyj
3493 posts
Oct 18, 2017
5:46 PM
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I am not a genius like Winslow, so what I do is more primitive, but it works for me. I know what holes and what bends are which degrees of the scale in the various positions I play in and, of course, those are the same for every Richter tuned harp in every key.
If I have to work from sheet music, I insist on getting the score in advance. I then go through the chart, see what key(s) it's in, and figure out what notes are which degree of the scale. Then I write the corresponding scale degree as a number above each note.
Then I decide what position lays out best for the tune and select the harp which puts me the in the correct key of the tune for the position I want to use for playing the tune. Then I play from looking at the numbers that correspond to the degrees of the scale.
If there is a modulation, I pick out the harp I will need to cover that key change.
It's not what Winslow does and it's not what they teach at Juliard or Berklee, but it works pretty well for me.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 18, 2017 5:48 PM
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STME58
2034 posts
Oct 18, 2017
7:11 PM
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A lot of what Winslow (no argument on Tom's description of him) is what I end up thinking about as I try to read a score. WHen I first get a score I frequently use this spreadsheet to help me determine what key harp might work best. Using this I discovered that the lead sheet I had to "Send in the Clowns" in Eb worked best in 12th position on a Bb harp.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 18, 2017 7:14 PM
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johan d
96 posts
Oct 18, 2017
10:22 PM
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Thanks all for you input. I think Winslow solution is good, but needs a lot of practice. My conclusion is the harp if more for improvising :-)
But if needed i will Winslow's guidelines!
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STME58
2035 posts
Oct 19, 2017
6:43 AM
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Needs a lot of practice is definitely an important principle with any instrument.I am just now learning alto and tenor clefs on trombone. For me it is about the same difficulty level as playing a piece in Ab on an Ab harp. Both will require a lot of practice before I have any proficiency.
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Diggsblues
2146 posts
Oct 19, 2017
10:14 AM
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If you play chrom you play as is. Diatonic I might write it out for C harp and write what key harp to use. I did four productions of "Big River" and it came in handy if they had to change key for the singer. I have my own copy of the harmonica part.
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GamblersHand
667 posts
Oct 19, 2017
11:36 PM
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I play mainly Americana, including some early jazz, so I occasionally will study the sheet music to check whether I'm playing the head more or less right etc
I never studied music so I find reading music slow and painful. What I'd find useful is a list of scale degrees against the treble clef staff, for each key, similar to the rules of thumb that Winslow stated
Has anyone come across something like that - or better still an App?
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STME58
2036 posts
Oct 20, 2017
6:40 AM
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GamblersHand, If you look at the spreadsheet I posted a link to here, and in my post above. You will see an imave of a bass clef and treble clef with the note mapped to piano keys with the note names on them. I found this and the circle of fifths handy to have along with the layout of all 12 keys of diatonic harmonica so I built this spreadsheet. Is that what you are looking for?
There are also a number of interactive learning programs like the one at http://www.readmusicfree.com/trebleclefdefender.html which can speed up the training process.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 20, 2017 6:48 AM
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timeistight
2225 posts
Oct 20, 2017
8:05 AM
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"I never studied music so I find reading music slow and painful. What I'd find useful is a list of scale degrees against the treble clef staff, for each key, similar to the rules of thumb that Winslow stated"
Here are the "moveable do" scale degrees in C major:
Where:
do is the tonic,
re is the major second above the tonic,
mi is the major third above the tonic,
fa is the perfect fourth above the tonic,
sol (or so) is the perfect fifth above the tonic,
la is the perfect sixth above the tonic, and
ti is the major seventh above the tonic.
You can find how these notes in other keys by looking at the key signature. In sharp keys, the last (i.e., the rightmost) sharp is on the line or space for the note "ti". In flat keys, the last flat is on the line or space for the note "fa". All the other notes map into place in the order listed.
Here are a couple more examples:
Eb major:
D major:
Last Edited by timeistight on Oct 20, 2017 8:34 AM
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timeistight
2226 posts
Oct 20, 2017
1:39 PM
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So, now that we know where the notes are on the staff, we need to find them on our harps.
In first position:
do is 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and 10 blow;
re is 1 draw, 4 draw and 8 draw;
mi is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow;
fa is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw;
so is 2 draw, 3 blow, 6 blow, and 9 blow;
la is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
ti is is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend.
In second position:
do is 2 draw, 3 blow, 6 blow, and 9 blow;
re is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
mi is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend;
fa is 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and 10 blow;
so is 1 draw, 4 draw and 8 draw;
la is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow;
ti is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend.
In third position:
do is 1 draw, 4 draw and 8 draw;
re is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow;
mi is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend;
fa is 2 draw, 3 blow, 6 blow, and 9 blow;
so is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
la is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend;
ti is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw.
In fourth position:
do is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
re is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend;
mi is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw;
fa is In 1 draw, 4 draw and 8 draw;
so is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow;
la is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend;
ti is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw.
In fifth position:
do is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow;
re is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend;
mi is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw;
fa is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
so is is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend;
la is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw;
ti is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend.
In sixth position:
do is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend;
re is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw;
mi is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend;
fa is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow;
so is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend;
la is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw;
ti is 3 draw single bend, 6 overblow, and 10 blow double bend.
In seventh position:
do is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend;
re is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw;
mi is 3 draw single bend, 6 overblow, and 10 blow double bend;
fa is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend;
so is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw;
la is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend;
ti is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw.
In eighth position:
do is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw;
re is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend;
mi is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw
fa is 2 draw single bend, 5 overblow, and 9 blow single bend;
so is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw;
la is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
ti is is 3 draw, 7 draw, and 10 blow single bend.
In ninth position:
do is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw;
re is 3 draw single bend, 6 overblow, and 10 blow double bend;
mi is 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and 10 blow;
fa is 1 draw single bend, 4 draw single bend, 7 overdraw, and 10 overdraw;
so is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend;
la is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw;
ti is 2 draw, 3 blow, six blow, and 9 blow.
In tenth position:
do is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend;
re is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw;
mi is 2 draw, 3 blow, six blow, and 9 blow;
fa is 3 draw triple bend, 6 draw single bend, and 9 overdraw;
so is 3 draw single bend, 6 overblow, and 10 blow double bend;
la is 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and 10 blow;
ti is 1 draw, 4 draw, and 8 draw.
In eleventh position:
do is 3 draw single bend, 6 overblow, and 10 blow double bend;
re is 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and 10 blow;
mi is 1 draw, 4 draw and 8 draw;
fa is 1 overblow, 4 overblow, and 8 single blow bend;
so is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw;
la is 2 draw, 3 blow, 6 blow, and 9 blow;
ti is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw.
In twelfth position:
do is 2 draw double bend, 5 draw, and 9 draw;
re is 2 draw, 3 blow, 6 blow, and 9 blow;
mi is 3 draw double bend, 6 draw, and 10 draw;
fa is 3 draw single bend, 6 overblow, and 10 blow double bend;
so is 1 blow, 4 blow, 7 blow, and 10 blow;
la is 1 draw, 4 draw and 8 draw;
ti is 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow.
Last Edited by timeistight on Oct 20, 2017 5:08 PM
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GamblersHand
668 posts
Oct 20, 2017
4:18 PM
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Thanks all. With the two examples written out by timeistight I see that it isn't so difficult. I was translating each note individually (from a EGBDF mnemonic, then applying the flats or sharps) rather than simply counting from the tonic.
So another question, does the minor scale start with "la"?
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nacoran
9641 posts
Oct 20, 2017
4:52 PM
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Timeistight, nice! I've thought moveable do was the way to go for a while, but never had the patience to map out the positions. I used to sing shape note music, which used a moveable do and shaped notes, to make it even easier... the head of the notes actually changes for different scale degrees...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note
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Nate
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STME58
2037 posts
Oct 20, 2017
11:20 PM
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Yes, the minor scale starts with La. Each starting point for a scale gives you a scale with a different name and a different character. Ionian (major) starts with Do, Dorian starts with Re, Phrygian starts with Mi, Lydian starts with Fa, Mixolydian starts with So, Aeolian (minor) starts with La and Locrian starts with Ti. You can find examples of songs in all of these modes, though Locrian is pretty rare.
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timeistight
2227 posts
Oct 21, 2017
7:52 AM
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That's one way it's done and works great for modes of the major scale.
A more flexible way is to always use "do" as the tonic and use chromatic solfege syllables when required. That works for all scales, even scales like harmonic and melodic minor and their modes, diminished and whole tone scales.
The ascending chromatic scale (using sharps) is do, di, re, ri, mi, fa, fi, so, si, la, li, ti, do. Descending (using flats) it's do, ti, te, la, le, so, se, fa, mi, me (pronounced "may"), re, ra, do.
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