Grey Owl
823 posts
Sep 21, 2017
10:11 AM
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Just bought 3 brand new boxed Special 20 harps in lesser used keys of B,E & F. two were the Progressive model and one standard SP20.
Bad news all three were unplayable OOTB. The gapping all round was poor and appalling on the lower 3 holes where the gaps were so big you could barely play a note let alone bend them. So now I've got to gap and tune all of them.
Should we really have to put up with such poor workmanship? Up until a few years ago I would have had no idea how to rectify this and they would have sat in the drawer gathering dust. I feel for new players buying harps like this, no wonder they have a reputation for playing too hard (trying to get a note to sound probably.)
I've always liked Special 20's but I'm reluctant to buy anymore now. I will stick with Suzuki. Every single Suzuki Harpmaster I've bought has been good OOTB, they have a similar tone to the Special 20 but a little more edge.
What's your experience?
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1847
4460 posts
Sep 21, 2017
11:01 AM
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if you are going to buy a hohner, i would get one from joe spiers or richard sleigh.
you pay a little more initially, but you get a top end harp. when a reed goes bad they can fix it better than new for slightly less than a new harp.
it is foolish to think that hohner is not producing harmonicas in china.
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dougharps
1572 posts
Sep 21, 2017
12:35 PM
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The last time I bought a new SP20 (an early Progressive in A) was a couple years ago, and the gaps were wide as often discussed here around that time. After my adjustments lowering the gaps it has since played very well.
The discussion at that time was that many Hohner harps were being gapped very wide for beginners, who often draw or blow with too much air and (if the harp had been properly gapped) they would complain of defects when the reeds choked, and would return the harp. Wide gaps avoided beginners returning harp due to choking reeds.
Recently a MUCH older SP20 of mine (key of A) finally had a reed fail. I subsequently cannibalized other reeds from the plates to repair other harps, using a reed chart for reed substitutions, then re-tuning.
Regarding the sacrificial A harp, I decided to buy new plates and revitalize it rather than buy a whole new harp. I already had some of the smaller screws on hand.
Rockin' Ron sent me plates that arrived very quickly in a box, and inside a plastic sleeve reinforced with cardboard sheets. The gaps on the plates looked appropriate. I installed them as is with extra screws I had previously bought when building a Seydel Session Steel.
The A SP20 with new plates plays wonderfully and the 6 OB was ready and clean when I tried. I did not gap these Rocket/SP20 plates ($30).
You may have bought those three SP 20s from stock from the earlier time when the Progressive SP 20s were gapped widely. Another possibility is that maybe Hohner plates sold separately have better gapping than in complete harps.
I essentially have a new SP20 for $30, and it plays very well.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Sep 21, 2017 12:36 PM
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Grey Owl
824 posts
Sep 21, 2017
12:56 PM
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
1847 I have no problem with my Ben Bouman custom Session Steels but I don't fancy running to the expense of a full set of Customs. I'm just disappointed that the standard of the OOTB was so low on these latest Sp20's. I haven't had this problem in the past with them.
Thanks Doug. You may have a point here (though I don't think it excuses Hohner for unplayable holes) as the local music store was selling off the last of their stock so the 2 progressives were possibly the early ones.
I bought these harps to fill in some blanks. I'll probably rarely use the B. I have since gapped them all and they play ok.
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 21, 2017 12:57 PM
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Bike&Harp
115 posts
Sep 21, 2017
1:03 PM
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Had the same experience with most of my SP20's. Gaps that were way way too wide. I've just accepted that as soon as i get a new harp it needs to be properly dialled in with gapping arcing and embossing. Sometimes the embossing can be left out if the gaps are narrow. Usually i emboss as well. Just finished embossing an F key Sp20 today where the slots needed to be brought in quite a bit. I also agree with you on the issue of being able to do this work yourself. I feel for folks who buy a harp, wait expectantly for it to arrive and it plays like a lemon OOTB. Let's face it most players just want to play a new harp they don't want to spend hours and hours fixing problems that shouldn't be there in the first place.
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BnT
103 posts
Sep 21, 2017
1:18 PM
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I used Hohner Pro and Special 20 for many years but the quality dropped off significantly a number of years ago (10?) and other people upped their game so I switched to Seydel for a couple of years, then Bends (which unfortunately went out of business), to all Suzuki Manji's the past five years. Considering the cost, OOTB product quality should be both reliable and excellent. With the precision of lasers and robotics a new harp costing $35-$45 shouldn't require a $100 customization to sound decent. Quality issues have existed for too long to be excused.
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BnT
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florida-trader
1196 posts
Sep 21, 2017
1:26 PM
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Seems to me like this is a little bit of a double-edged sword. More accomplished players have higher standards and better technique, consequently OOTB harps that are set up for beginners don’t suit their playing style. Let’s imagine the opposite for a moment. Imagine if Hohner set the gaps tighter so the Special 20 would be more in line with what a good player likes. All the beginners would be saying that Special 20s suck because they choke too easily. However, the beginners would have no idea how to fix the problem whereas we, the more knowledgeable crowd, will simply adjust the gaps. It is impossible to set up a harp so it is perfect for every player – beginner or pro. There has to be a default setup at the factory. Hohner has decided that the default gapping is a little wider than a lot of guys like. Lots of people swear by their OOTB harps – Special 20s included. Ever notice how the more expensive harps like a Marine Band Crossover or Seydel 1847 have better setups? Perhaps the higher price tag discourages beginners from buying them. Is there a method to the madness?
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 21, 2017 1:47 PM
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BnT
105 posts
Sep 21, 2017
2:01 PM
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Tom - I agree that there is a method to the (corporate) madness but also believe Hohner quality issues have existed for too long to be excused. Whether I pay $35, $65, or $85 I expect a decent harp OOTB; not so paying $10 for an Easttop or Swan.
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BnT
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Joe_L
2785 posts
Sep 21, 2017
2:28 PM
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Being a person of clearly less discerning taste as I almost exclusively play OOTB Hohner MS harps. I have also played some Special 20's and Marine Bands. I cant remember the last time that I got one that was unplayable. I would return them to Hohner and test their customer service.
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SuperBee
4983 posts
Sep 21, 2017
2:40 PM
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Sounds like you found some old stock GreyOwl. The fact only 2 in box of 3 were badged progressive seems a fair clue. Also many of the early 'progressive' harps still use 2M reedplate bolts, IE they were older stock reedplates with new stock covers. The irony is that these are the harps people started freaking out about over 'quality decline' and outsourced manufacture, when they were actually just the same old sp20s but extra-badly set up. There was a bad couple of months. I've bought them here in Tasmania at LMS. Set the gaps, a very easy job and didn't need a tuning job after, very little interference require, didn't need to lower the fixed end or reshape reeds, just close up the offsets in the first 5 chambers mainly. Result was 2 great harps. I carry the Bb in my main 'grabit/practice' kit. I've got a good Bb setup from Joe Spiers, very good harp trust me, but I don't feel bad about grabbing this stock sp20 to play anything.
I don't play sp20s with any devotion to that model, most of my harps are marine band but I see them as interchangeable these days.
Mostly the noise about bad harps stopped and that's because the problem went away when Hohner worked out what was happening.
I wouldn't expect Hohner love me because I repair a few harps and mainly shop with them for reeds, but I like the product. I only bought those 2 sp20s to see what the fuss was about.
I suppose if you're in the habit of buying new harps when one wears out, you might have different priorities. I mainly repair and rebuild and the Hohner handmade harps are a solid choice for that. Easy to work on and readily available parts both new and used. Sp20s are especially great candidates because the comb is easily cleaned and very durable.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 21, 2017 2:43 PM
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Mr.SpecialNoob
2 posts
Sep 21, 2017
5:11 PM
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I currently only play with Marnine Bands or SP20s, but in almost all of them i need to adjust the gaping.
The last Marine band i bought a few weeks ago (Key of A) was a complete mess with air leaks everywere, but after a few minutes adjusting the gaping it worked as good as any other harp.
My point is that adjusting the gaping is a simple thing to do that should not incline you to stop playing an harp you like.
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Gnarly
2310 posts
Sep 21, 2017
11:10 PM
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"My point is that adjusting the gapping is a simple thing to do, that should not <"make you"> stop playing a harp you like."
I told a customer that over the phone today. I told them, "Practice on your Hohners."
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Andrew
1666 posts
Sep 22, 2017
6:44 AM
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I shouldn't join in this thread, because I don't own an SP20. But I can't remember if it's because I've never wanted to own one or if I bought one once and hated it.
Did I look at one in a shop and think "grey plastic can never be a good thing"?
I've just speculatively ordered a Crossover in F.
It's the most expensive harp I've ever bought.
It'd better be good.
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Andrew.
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AppalachiaBlues
68 posts
Sep 22, 2017
7:32 AM
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@GreyOwl: I concur with the others, about the "transition period" when the SP20 was changed over to "Progressive" and the Rocket was launched, both were shipping with huge gaps. I acquired 2 SP20s and 1 Rocket during that period, and all three were gapped too far open. But it took me 10 minutes to re-gap each harp, and they were fine after that. Great harps. I cannot comment on whether the current production runs are better gapped. I've not bought a new one in the past 2 years.
@1847: The SP20 is made in Germany, not China.
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Sep 22, 2017 7:35 AM
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Grey Owl
825 posts
Sep 22, 2017
9:20 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts guys. I really appreciate your contributions. This has solved the mystery but it still doesn't excuse Hohner from setting the gaps far too wide as to have unplayable holes. I am not expecting perfection from ootb harps, just basic playability.
I acknowledge it would be impossible on mass produced harps to expect reed settings to fit both new players and chromatic overblowers and all the stages in between.
I am more than happy to work on my harps to suit my requirements setting the gaps for the best projection and obtain overblow/draws, together with light embossing. Some harps require no work.
When I first bought harps pre internet sales my local music store used to have a set of hand bellows with an adjustable aperture to test each hole blow and draw and a wider setting for chords and I used to test the harp rigourously for response. Never bought a complete duff one then.
I hadn't bought any new sp20's for a while and was frankly shocked at the standard of these latest ones compared to my experience with them in the past
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 22, 2017 9:24 AM
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Martin
1285 posts
Sep 22, 2017
4:13 PM
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Interesting. I have also bought three S20´s fairly recently (one was called "progressive" but I don´t know what that implies) and they were excellent. I do not work on my harps, and no, gapping etc are *not* "simple things", so I´m rather dependent on tightness for OB´s.
From that not very extensive empirical base, admittedly -- but I had heard other positive comments as well -- I thought that Hohner had really shaped up.
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SuperBee
4988 posts
Sep 22, 2017
5:28 PM
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I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's likely those Grey Owl purchased, while his most recent purchase, are not really harps which have been recently produced. I'd bet they were made early in 2015. The fact they're lesser played keys makes this even more plausible: slow-moving stock.
We went through this at length several times, at the time. I actually picked up quite a few secondhand sp20s from people who decided to cash their chips at the time. An ill wind etc.
It was an unfortunate blip at one point in time, but Hohner make a lot of harps so that stock is all around the world and in stores with low turnover rates or with less popular keys they can still be found. Didn't just affect the sp20, I have a set of bargain-price marine bands with the same issue. I set them up and put them on aftermarket combs, sold some, others made it into my gig set.
Hohner acknowledged the problem in their newsletter, Steve Baker made a statement about it and they went back to sensible gaps and I expect probably paid a lot of attention to the matter for some time after.
Grey Owl, had you taken it up with Hohner, given the acknowledged facts I would not be surprised if they'd replaced those harps. May be too late once you've adjusted them.
Generally it's true that Hohner handmade harps are currently very good. Buy from stores with high turnover to avoid getting old stock (some of my LMS still have pre 2012 unsealed MBs on the rack!)
and if the harp doesn't perform, take it up with Hohner.
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Spderyak
157 posts
Sep 23, 2017
3:54 AM
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I know if I bought harps that were not playable OOTB
I would feel ripped off.
Perhaps I'm just old school..
I like the harps I buy these days I'm not much of one for having to dick around with something after I buy it but suppose I might have to sooner or later.
Last Edited by Spderyak on Sep 23, 2017 3:56 AM
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Grey Owl
826 posts
Sep 23, 2017
10:19 AM
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Thanks again. I think you are spot on with your assessment Superbee.
Btw I instinctively gapped them without thinking of taking it up with Hohner. Don't even know who the Hohner guy is in the uk?
Btw all my Mb's have been pretty good. I think I have settled on my go to harps now though and that, as I've said above, is the Suzuki Harpmaster. It's a great harp, comfortable to play, great tone and tuned to my liking and it's reasonably priced.
I agree Spderjak
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 23, 2017 10:21 AM
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LevelUp
29 posts
Sep 25, 2017
6:21 AM
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I can't blame Hohner for gapping wide...as beginners are the bulk of their market. They even specifically market special 20s as the perfect beginners instrument.
Perhaps the point of separation here is that for most instruments, an experienced player wouldn't be caught dead playing on a student horn. But by tweaking a SP20 can be a top notch instrument. I count that as fortunate, rather than unfortunate.
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groyster1
3019 posts
Sep 25, 2017
6:57 AM
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I have many older sp20s,several of which the back has been opened up....I have one in Bb stage one built by joe spiers.I have found that these harps are some of the most air tight I have played.I probably will not buy new ones as it seems hohner seems to marketing the rocket,which is louder than sp 20s
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HarveyHarp
752 posts
Sep 25, 2017
9:02 AM
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Sorry fellas. I do not understand the problem. Many musicians, and we are musicians, need to take some steps to maintain, and set up their instruments for their own liking. The Special 20 is amongst the easiest harps to maintain, and set up. Learn to do it. It only takes a couple of minutes, and requires a small flat screw driver, and some sort of pick (toothpick, paper clip, whatever) or, pay someone to do it for you. That is the price for being a musician.
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HarveyHarp
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Grey Owl
827 posts
Sep 25, 2017
9:09 AM
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Perhaps the most fortunate aspect for harp players is the choice of harps we have access to these days from a variety of manufacturers from the old front runners to the new kids on the block. (I have tried most!) If one brand/model is disappointing then we can try another. I have fortunately found a brand I am very happy with in the same price bracket as the Sp 20 and which is superior ootb from my experience and which customises extremely well when required for chromatic playing.
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Kingley
4078 posts
Sep 25, 2017
9:34 AM
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I wonder how many people get the irony that they are complaining about a product not being able to do something, that it wasn't actually intended to do in the first place.
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Grey Owl
828 posts
Sep 25, 2017
9:56 AM
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O so true in the context of an instrument capable of playing notes it was never intended to play. However, I do believe the minimum requirement for a harmonica is to be able to play a note it was designed to play and on all three harps I bought, one or more notes on the lower octave would not sound. That's no help to beginners or otherwise.
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AppalachiaBlues
72 posts
Sep 25, 2017
10:18 AM
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True, we are using this instrument in a way the original designers never imagined. However, I think modern products like the Manji ARE designed to be played the way we play them, while keeping within the constraints of the traditional design format.
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Sep 25, 2017 10:18 AM
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LevelUp
31 posts
Sep 26, 2017
1:27 AM
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> am very happy with in the same price bracket as the Sp 20 and which is superior ootb from my experience and which customises extremely well
I take it you are talking about the harp master?
Last Edited by LevelUp on Sep 26, 2017 1:27 AM
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Spderyak
158 posts
Sep 26, 2017
3:51 AM
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My analogy would be if I went down the store and buy a hand saw...then take it home to cut some wood
...Ahhh but it won't cut anything.
I'm told "OH now that saw won't cut anything till you set the kerf of each tooth to the exact angle"
in the meantime it useless...
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Grey Owl
829 posts
Sep 26, 2017
4:55 AM
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Level Up. Yes that's the one.
Spderyak :)
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 26, 2017 4:56 AM
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dougharps
1577 posts
Sep 26, 2017
6:05 AM
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Come ON, people!
Yes, there was a time that Hohner was leaving excessively large gaps. Yes, it is wrong to sell a harp that has holes that won't even sound for an experienced player. Hohner got the message and gap better now, or so I hear. The plates I bought are great.
It is also wrong to sell a harp that is priced for beginners that is set up with such tight gaps that many notes will not sound due to choking reeds.
A new harp at the moderate price point of the SP20 should be set with wider gaps than an OB harp, but playable on all standard notes. If we experienced players want OBs, we need to take responsibility to adjust the gaps.
Grey Owl, you got a bargain on clearance at a store of less popular keys that apparently were of that era and not properly gapped. You were right to be displeased, but you adjusted them.
Hohner was in the wrong when they built them that way and apparently has responded to complaints and improved. If you like Suzuki Harpmasters, fine. IMHO they are pretty good, though I prefer SP20 at that price.
I was unhappy at the time Hohner built that way, but they improved. I still think SP20s are good harps for the money. Their response and sound are what I like. I always adjust gaps anyway, but I agree they should be playable OOTB. I believe that more recently built SP20s are playable OOTB!
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Doug S.
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Andrew
1669 posts
Sep 26, 2017
6:15 AM
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Afaicr, Adam's old gapping video says that he tends to open the gaps on new MBs. If that's true it surprises me. Or maybe he plays them really loud.
I tend to close them down, but then I'm only noodling for myself in my living room.
But to my frustration now if I take one to my uke group, the notes jam if I blow hard enough to make myself heard, so it's back to the drawing board! (or else, modify my embouchure)
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Sep 26, 2017 6:16 AM
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Grey Owl
830 posts
Sep 26, 2017
6:49 AM
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Neatly summed up Doug.
I remember that Adam vid. Andrew. Adam does have a strong attack so I guess that would suit him though it did puzzle me at the time when some were advocating closing the gaps for better response.
Thanks for the feedback guys, that's me out now.
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 15, 2017 6:20 AM
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nacoran
9619 posts
Sep 26, 2017
11:24 AM
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"A new harp at the moderate price point of the SP20 should be set with wider gaps than an OB harp, but playable on all standard notes. If we experienced players want OBs, we need to take responsibility to adjust the gaps."
The only thing I'd take issue with in that is that neither setup should inherently be more expensive for Hohner. It seems that they could, if they wanted, fork the production of the Sp20 into maybe a 'hard player' and 'finesse' model.
They could bill one as something like, "A great harp for players who want to play all out" and the the other as "A great harp for players interested in subtle performance"... and sell them for the same price! :)
A guy can dream.
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Nate
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Raven
105 posts
Oct 06, 2017
2:57 PM
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@Nate: You know that the "Finesse" model would be labeled "Professional Harp" and would carry a higher price tag...that's reality!
From all of the above comments, I'm glad that all of the Sp 20's I own were purchased years ago...they all still have original reeds and virtually no gapping issues.
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Steve Harvell
230 posts
Oct 06, 2017
4:04 PM
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I really like the Hohner "Rocket Reedplates" that I have purchased from Rocking Rons...they do very well in a Special 20 comb :)
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SuperBee
5013 posts
Oct 06, 2017
5:25 PM
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Exactly right Steve!
Rockets use sp20 Reedplates.
Or sp20s use rocket Reedplates.
Whichever way you like it.
It’s not a case of ‘old ones are good, new ones aren’t.’
There was a period in 2015 when some poorly set up ones got out.
The new ones are as good as anything made in the last 50 years
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AppalachiaBlues
79 posts
Oct 07, 2017
1:17 AM
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Personally, I love the following combination: Rocket reed plates, Special 20 combs, Rocket Amp covers.
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jbone
2363 posts
Oct 07, 2017
7:48 AM
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I have a few "original" SP20's on the way, repaired and regapped. Curious to see/hear how they do. There are also some Big Rivers in the bunch I think. I honestly don't recall what all I sent him. He wanted some candidates to work on and we worked a deal. I'm swapping a cd or 2 for his work. I'll have a report after I get them in the mail next week and try them all out.
I sent these to a guy some 5 or 6 years ago and never heard back from him until recently when he blew the dust off the box and got busy. Then his wife had a new baby boy (very cool!) and he got work-slammed, but hopefully today he gets them headed back my way.
Note too, I blew up a lot of SP20 reeds over several years of playing them mostly. Partly my fault for being such a brutally loud player. Eventually I settled on other models and brands mostly since they were better for street work.
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Last Edited by jbone on Oct 07, 2017 7:51 AM
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