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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Diatonic Harmonica Curriculum
Diatonic Harmonica Curriculum
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LevelUp
9 posts
Sep 01, 2017
2:04 PM
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As my name implies, I'm looking to advance my playing. One of the characteristics of learning in the modern, internet pedagogy world is that learning tends to be more fragmented--we tend to learn what we gravitate towards, emphasize our strengths more than challenge our weaknesses, and can have a hard time getting a solid sense of direction for improving.
Speaking for myself, it went something like (1) Play through a folk tune book to learn the instrument, (2) Watch youtube videos to learn basics of 2nd position, (3) work through about a dozen Adam Gussow videos, (4) practice a ton, (5) start learning licks and how to apply them, (6) start learning how to build through a 12 bar progression, (7) learn overblows, (8) noodle forever, (9) learn overdraws, (10) start working on harps, (11) start playing open mics, (12) etc...
This got me thinking, most instruments have something of a standard pedagogy, one that is detailed enough that it actually thinks through difficulty down to the note-to-note level, and up to the level of literature.
What would that look like for diatonic harmonica? Has anyone done this, to the point of building it out from beginner to virtuoso? I'd imagine this has been done for Chromatic since it is more oriented towards the music-reading crowd and the training that goes along with that.
And I also wonder what would be the effect of that? Maybe that would "classicize" the blues, but man, Jazz musicians have their shit down cold and it shows. What would that look like in the diatonic world?
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Mirco
534 posts
Sep 01, 2017
4:16 PM
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David Barrett has done this. It is called Levels of Achievement. He divides the curriculum into discrete areas, like: Solo Harmonica, Tongue Blocking Technique, Scales, Accompaniment, Music Theory, etc.
Each level, from 1-10, requires a more advanced understanding of these main areas, as demonstrated in recordings you send to him.
Jazz musicians have it down cold, you wrote. Everyone I've met and heard that has come through Dave's system is badass.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
Last Edited by Mirco on Sep 01, 2017 4:17 PM
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hvyj
3468 posts
Sep 01, 2017
4:20 PM
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You have hit the nail precisely on its head. There is nothing out there that gives us a comprehensive coherent understanding of the instrument.
Now, to be fair and objective, what is available today on line is wonderful. Stuff that literally took me 10 years to figure out is now accessible to all of us with a mouse click. I've learned valuable stuff from Adam's videos that I would have otherwise remained ignorant about and Dave Barrett's stuff is very sound as far it goes. Diatonic Harmonica Reference is a cornecopia of useful knowledge and Will Wilde has some very solid stuff on You Tube--to only mention a few. But, yeah, none of it gives you a comprehensive overview of the big picture and how it all fits together. There's bits and pieces--some very substantial, but just about all of it is fragmentary in nature.
Now, there's quite a bit available regarding TECHNIQUE (some of it very solid, some of it specious) but if you kiss enough frogs there's plenty of decent instruction on technique out there. BUT, what to do with it?
Take a look at what I posted on my user page. Where do you learn those types of interrelationships? Well, I figured that out on my own.
If that is the sort of information you are interested in acquiring about playing diatonic harp, I can tell you how I went about it and some of the other discoveries I've made along the way. And yes, there is some music theory involved. But I am almost entirely self taught. And this is because the conventional way harmonica is taught makes no sense conceptually. If you are looking for conceptual coherence, you need to work it out largely on your own.
@Micro: Barrett's stuff is very good. But what I've seen is primarily blues oriented and limited to mostly first, second and third position. I haven't signed up for his website, so he may have other stuff I am not aware of, but from what I've seen his instruction, while very good, is pretty limited in scope and is largely style specific and position specific. But very sound nevertheless--as far as it goes.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 01, 2017 4:39 PM
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BnT
88 posts
Sep 01, 2017
11:14 PM
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The answer changes depending on the music style - blues, country, folk - you're out to learn.
Presuming blues I think Barrett has built a comprehensive, understandable program (based on talking with and hearing some of his students). That means that students have a defined structure that creates a set of tools, not that they each end up with the same ability level or tone, or that they become great at improvising. It's learning a set of skills, not a course in miracles. There are pluses to Adam's videos and Jerry Portnoy's lessons. But like high school or college - different teachers resonate for different students.
I think the inherent problem with "education" is that people learn differently and at varied speeds so my view and yours of the best teacher or method may not match up. You may need to try a few and explore what works for you and your style as a student and as a player.
If a "harmonica common core" existed there's no reason to think it would be THE answer. Good luck finding what works for you.
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BnT
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AppalachiaBlues
48 posts
Sep 02, 2017
7:57 AM
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I agree that different people learn differently. I'm not sure there is any one recipe or program. Music is art.
Over the years, I have sporadically followed 6 to 8 different teachers on Youtube, without much structure or path to my learning. Sometimes a video from Jason or Adam (or someone else) will challenge me, or enlighten me, or force me to really learn something I (mistakenly) think I can already do. I have also used several books. And for a few months I joined intermediate group classes, which were very valuable - not only did the teacher's direct feedback help me, but I learned from the other students in the class.
But I also went around in circles thinking too much about the notes and positions and scales and chords and arpeggios - the numbers and mathematics started to get in the way of my playing.
One thing that really helped me to piece it all together and improve my playing, was to join a band. We practiced weekly and played out live 2-3 times per month. We recorded an album. Over a period of 2 or 3 years, that was what really pushed me ahead. It helped me learn how to find my role in the music, what I needed to do (and not do) with my playing, and advanced my understanding of music theory. During practice I would listen to the guitarist and bassist and drummer, trading licks with them, or layering my parts into theirs. I learned about the relationship between the vocalist and the harp, and experimented with that relationship. I sometimes played along side a horn player, which was an education, learning how he approached a song or a part. The band gave me space to experiment, with instant feedback in rehearsal sessions and on stage. And I learned a lot from my mistakes.
I then left the band. And now I feel my playing is "stuck", and has actually digressed. I am practicing less, and trying to start again with Youtube... but it's not the same any more. I will look for another band, or at least a group of musicians with whom I can play on a regular basis. I need that as a motor. And I need the interaction with the other musicians.
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Sep 02, 2017 11:07 AM
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Tommy the Hat
703 posts
Sep 02, 2017
8:58 AM
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Great post AppalachiaBlues. Getting out there and playing with a band pieced it together for you. I like that.
While there are many great resources out there today, personally I find that the internet...forums, instruction though text or other impersonal methods...can get a bit pedantic. "you must do this" and "you have to do that." There are many great players, most of whom we all try to copy, who learned long before computers, may not have even had access to books or any such methods, videos etc. Maybe only some music or another player to listen too, and/or a mentor, yet they turned out great. Maybe it would have been easier in todays world...who knows? But then again, maybe todays world wants everything to be "easy."
When I was a kid and you wanted to learn how to swim...they threw you in the water. It worked!
I think that today there is a lot of good information out there but you have to be careful and not get too caught up in it. Use a mix of things and personalize it to fit
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Tommy
My YouTube vocal covers
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slaphappy
311 posts
Sep 02, 2017
9:42 AM
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IMO, Barret's LOA program is the best top-to-bottom method for learning the instrument (I went to level 9) and yes it is blues-centric.
I think otherwise Howard Levy has a progression of lessons through the artist works site that looked pretty cool for advancing yourself on the instrument in a non-blues format.. I haven't tried those though. I'm tempted but I really just want to play blues.
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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hvyj
3476 posts
Sep 02, 2017
3:00 PM
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I happen to agree that playing in a band or with other musicians is the best catalyst for learning. Especially if you are fortunate enough to be able to play regularly with musicians who are better than you.
But I do not agree that how you go about learning the instrument is dependent upon what style you are interested in playing. If you are able to achieve control over the instrument, you have the tools and ability to play whatever style interests you. You just select the right tools for the job, once you understand the idiom you want to play in.
I am familiar with Portnoy's teaching method because I bought his multiple CD course years ago. Now, he has valuable and well conveyed instruction on technique. His approach to the three hole draw bends is especially helpful IMHO. But a large proportion of what he teaches is only useful for blues and won't work in positions above third even for playing blues. So...it was of limited interest or utility to me for what I was trying to learn.
As far as scales and arpeggios being a distraction to one's actually playing, I get that. Can be sort of mechanical. BUT, getting to the point where one can play them more-or-less automatically without thinking that much makes it much easier to move around on the harp with good note selection. And understanding what scales work for what styles of music really empowers the player who then becomes much less limited by stylistic considerations. FWIW
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 02, 2017 3:24 PM
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The Iceman
3338 posts
Sep 02, 2017
3:57 PM
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Yes, there are many different videos on youtube, approaches and books.
I've found that it is a mixed blessing. So much to choose from, but too much to bounce from one to the other.
When I teach a student, I'll tell him to decide if my approach works, and, if so, not to get into any other teacher's methods, videos, books, etc. The fastest path up the mountain is with one unified vision/approach. A longer path is to bounce between many teachers/videos/books.
I've experienced Barrett's methods and found them to be too dry and pedantic for my taste, although there are those that respond to this approach.
So, my advice is to research well and decide on one approach/philosophy, sticking with it until you've sucked all that marrow out of the bone before choosing another.
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The Iceman
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