So i dont play in amps and i usually play in PAs and Monitors and stuff, so why does my tone sound muddy whenever i play through a cupped mic? do i need to buy a pedal or an amp of some kind? I usually TB.
I went to my local jam last night with just my harps. Played through a cupped Shure 520x that was plugged into the PA. I got either shrill/feedback driven tone or muddy hard to hear tone. I pissed the sound guy off a bit by insisting I play through a vocal mic on a stand but that was only way I could control my tone. I usually take my trusty 5w Kalamazoo amp and my own mic so I have control. When I do that I have 10+ people comment on my tone. I think the key is having something that breaks up that you have control over. If you don't want to carry an amp, you might look to some of Lone Wolf pedals. I've seen people use the Boogie Man or Harp Break and go DI into the PA. After last night's experience, I'll never play direct into the PA again. I have control issues. ;-)
Delay is what I use into my amp. It's my fav LW pedal but not going to alter your tone. It's the breakup of the tubes and speaker that gives the Chicago blues tone I'm after. I think every Blues harp player needs a small tube amp. I would rather play through a miced Pignose or other solid-state amp before I would play direct into the PA.
I love my Kalamazoo, but they are getting more and more expensive. I've seen folks have good luck with the VHT Special 6 and Epi Valve Junior also. If you hit the forum search, there are a slew of threads comparing them. Kudzurunner's video about amping the harp was also very helpful in my decision. I found a Kalamazoo locally and had my amp tech go over it. I'm about $350 deep in it, but it's exactly what I want.
You can get a new VHT Special 6 for about $250 used about $150 a lot amp for the money. Lots of info on the interweb about these as harp amps I bought a new one and they sound good. But I did change speaker and put in different tubes to warm it up a bit.
The first equipment purchase a novice harp player should make is a decent quality harp friendly mic. Personally, I would recommend a low impedance XLR style stick mic that you can plug into a PA. Buy a Hosa rat tail impedance marching transformer which is inexpensive and will enable you to play through an amp when you want to. Especially for the inexperienced player who is primarily playing at jams, bullet mics, pedals and amps will present more problems than they will solve. If you buy an XLR cable, get one 25' long. That will give you enough length to reach the PA board or snake in just about any jam situation. Some XLR cables are made with an on/off switch on the jack that connects to the mic which is a very useful feature. These can sometimes be a little hard to find, but they are by no means rare.
Go to a music store and try out some mics to find one you like. Don't worry about if any one else is using that particular mic for harp. If it sounds right to you, it is right mic for you. As a reference point you may want to start by trying the Shure 545 and Shure SM 57. Both have strong proximity effect and are relatively inexpensive but very high quality. Their only drawback is the shape of the head makes them a little awkward to grip.
Btw, the practical problem with a small tube amp for a jam player is that you need to mic it and there will not always be enough open channels on the board to allow you to do that. Then you will wind up having to crank the amp in an effort to hear yourself and be heard which will inevitably produce feedback which will PO the other musicians and alienate the audience. Whatever the merits of using a small amp may be, they are not the most utilitarian equipment for a jam player.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 04, 2017 9:59 AM
If you are plugging into a P.A. ,set the plug in your doing to low on treble ,low on mid and high on bass.this should stop any feed back and the big on bass will give you a fat tone.If I`m going into a P.A. ,I use a S.58 or a S.57.With a Amp I always use a S.545.....
Too muddy that way IMO. You lose too much. Mids 5, Highs 5. Learn to work the FB. Just moveing a few inches can make a difference. Cut the Volume, not the Mids and Highs, the M/H's keep you in the mix. And the tone.....the Tone is from within..
The convential wisdom about turning the bass up and the treble down on a PA is not effective. Cranking the bass makes your tone muddy and can also create low frequency feedback which sounds horrible. Rolling off some treble is a good idea, but you can lose definition and cut if you turn the treble down too far. The midrange control is your friend--on a PA board, that's where the action is. Pumping the mids fattens your tone and is the secret to getting a good harp tone dialed in on a PA.
Whatever the merits of using a bullet mic with an amp may be, using a bullet into a PA board is not optimum because the quarter inch input jacks on the board bypass the mic preamps on the PA which degrades tone.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 04, 2017 12:52 PM
I thought this was going be a thread about Muddy Waters.
the most likely explanation for muddy tone is that the band is too loud or there are other instruments competing in the same frequency range as your harp. or you just don't have good tone yet.
in my experience harp through the vocal mic usually cuts through just fine if everything is relatively normal. sometimes too loud when cupped. muddiness is not a typical problem maybe with the exception of low-key harps and a bass player..
my advice is keep practicing and going to jams and try to figure out why things aren't working when you play.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Aug 04, 2017 3:06 PM
I've heard your samples; there's nothing terribly wrong with your tone, just keep working on what you're playing. The notes, the timing, rhythm, phrasing. It's there, just needs a bunch of work. Probably a lot more listening and playing along with recordings. But the tone will come along as you're playing improves.
my samples arent great lol, im gon see if the band can comp me for a cover of Off The Wall since people seem to like it when they ask me to play it.
Not sure what to tell them though, since its just a pianist and sometimes a drummer, guitarist and a harp player
Last Edited by ejakon on Aug 04, 2017 4:50 PM
I would like to add my 2 cents here even though I really have no clue about equipment or sound technology or any of that. So take it for what it's worth (or don't).
I remember a story I read in a guitar magazine years ago, where the author said he had a chance to play using Stevie Ray Vaughan's guitar equipment/setup. This was for an article he was working on. He was very excited because he anticipated getting that SRV sound. I think he may even had a chance to play Stevie's guitar..I'm not sure. Anyway the end result was a big disappointment. He said rather than sounding like Stevie Ray vaughn he only sounded like himself. The lesson? It wasn't SRV's equipment responsible for his playing and tone it was Stevie.
The equipment one uses is a factor and it's an important part of ones sound. However, one must first "have a sound." After that a preference is developed and the equipment then develops from there. As time goes by and experience is gained, you then own "your sound."
This is not to say that the OP shouldn't seek decent equipment if he is already playing out. But I do think these thing need to be taken into consideration and built slowly rather than looking to equipment to get a particular sound. First rung of the latter comes first. First develop "you" then add enhancements later that add to and identify that you. Just a thought.
First of all, there is no such thing as "Chicago Blues Tone". All of the guys from Chicago since the post war period have sounded very different. Even Little Walter's records sound different from session to session. If you listen to enough of that music, it is super easy to pick them out by their sound. Little Walter, Big Walter, the Sonny Boys, Junior, Carey, Cotton, Good Rockin' Charles, Snooky Pryor, Big John Wrencher, Big Leon Brooks, Little Willie Andersen, Earring George, Little Mac, Louis Myers, Little Arthur, etc... they all sound different. Many of them cupped the mic differently or not at all. Some of them played through amps, some of them didn't. There was no one sound. The one thing they had in common was that they were all completely bad ass.
Second, and here is the bad news. Microphones equalized for vocals through a solid state PA don't lie. They represent your sound pretty accurately. If it sounds muddy, dull or lifeless, it most likely your technique. You've admitted to being a beginner, so you aren't likely going to be sounding like {insert your favorite harp player's name here}.
To cup a vocal mix through a PA, you really have to back way off on the amount of breath force you are using. Listen to some of the Big Walter tracks on YouTube when he's playing with the Willie Dixon Band. He is using a super light touch and he lets the PA do the heavy lifting. The biggest challenge through a vocal mic into a PA is feedback management, if signal is being sent into the monitors.
The key is to experiment. Don't buy lots of stuff. The greatest players didn't have fancy shit at their disposal back in the day. Now before people start saying all of the equipment was great, think about how equipment changed over time. By the 70's, it wasn't uncommon for PA's to be moving to solid state technology. Many of the older black guys from Chicago, who played harp and sang moved to the new technology. They really didn't care much about their gear. The message isn't the harmonica playing. The vocals are the message.
If they had a separate vocal and harp mics, they may have been eq'ed a bit differently, but if you listen to Cotton on the live version of Blues In My Sleep, he transitions between a vocal mic on a stand and a mic he cups, they aren't eq'ed a great deal differently. He sounds differently because he alters his technique quite a bit.
Whatever you do, do not pull all of the highs and mid tones out of the channel, it will sound even shittier and muddier. If you need to spend money, buy a Zoom recorder, a note pad and a pen. Record everything you do, take notes and do more of the stuff that sounds good and less of the stuff that sounds "less than good".
What you are trying to do, can't be bought. It's hard work. Lots of trial and error. Lots of listening to others. If possible going to see good players work and trying to figure out what they do.
good advice from this thread, but the bad tone was because i was breathing too hard and the lack of time meant the tongue chugging overpowered the actual notes, i wasnt TBing correctly (O shape lips with the harp around the lips not deep in the mouth) I readjusted by technique and i managed to make the tone sound considerably better. thanks yall
also @Joe_L youre advice was v grounded in reality and you saved me from buying expensive crap, maybe il just settle on some Zajac combs for my Seydels. Guess il work on my own sound then and stop trying to listen and carbon copy the riffs and licks from harp players. thanks.
Last Edited by ejakon on Aug 06, 2017 12:40 PM
Presuming you're playing Seydel 1847 Silvers, Zajac combs will not do anything to stop "muddy". $100 worth of practice & following Joe L's advice will take you a lot further and get you where you want to be.
As far as PA options watch videos. You see Junior Wells using ANY mic that happened to be there connected to a PA; or Cotton who used a Shure 585A (a vocal mic) for a long time. Your Shure bullet is fine - you just need to master its use (back off, play softer, get more or less space btw the harp and the mic). Or maybe a volume control.
Something no one suggested yet (and I'm not suggesting buying one because I don't think you're there yet and I endorse practice over purchase). Skip Simmons makes little pre-amps. It's a 3" square x 1" high metal box that would fit in a jacket pocket (after you remove the one tube). I forget if it uses a battery or plugs in. Anyway, you have line in (from your mic), line out (to the PA) and volume control. It gives a tube amp sound to the solid state PA. Musslewhite picked one up on his way to the airport and it was the "amp" he used while touring Europe and Russia. (Skipsimmonsamps.com) ---------- BnT
Im well aware that a zajac comb wont fix my "muddy" tone. I was just thinking of getting some because i have some extra cash on me and i need to replace the comb on one of my Seydel Nobles anyways.
I am curious: Why would you need to replace a car my on an 1847 Noble? I replace combs on almost everything but Hammonds and Firebreaths, but the Seydel Noble combs are the best combs I've ever encountered on an OOB harmonica, assuming you like aluminum.
I dropped it on the floor during a wedding so now i need the harp fixed. I never really liked the comb in the first place, with the metallic taste and all, ive always felt pretty sluggish carrying the harp around because it felt like a ton of bricks. If i like the comb on this harp once its fixed, then maybe il replace all the combs on my other 4 Seydels as well.
Don't be afraid to add some treble and mids- not everything has to be treble 0, Bass 10. For added tone control beyond your amp controls, something like a LW harp tone plus could be helpful ;)
EJ - I don't know how long youve been playing, but based on your posts, I doesn't seem like a long time, yet you appear to feel comfortable on stage or busking in public.
First suggestion. You say money is tight. Stop spending the little money you have. Dont buy pedals. Don't spend it on combs for expensive harps. Don't buy expensive harps. When you are first learning, you will go through a lot of harps. Buy cheaper, but still playable models. People always bitch about how shitty the quality of Marine Band harps were in the 80's, but remember those were the harmonicas that everyone played. There were no custom harps, combs or any of that stuff available, yet there were still some great records made during that time. Most of the old guys played those shitty quality harps during that time period.
Second suggestion. Don't play out until you've got something musically to say. People will label you. If you're going to get labeled, let it happen after you've done some serious work. That will take time. First opinions can't ever be changed.
Third suggestion. If you have to spend money, get out and see some real players. Watch and listen to what they are doing. A lot of people will say you can't learn anything because much of what's happening is going on inside the player's mouth. I think that's a load of crap. I learned everything by trial and error. When I was first learning, I learned a ton from watching Cotton and Mojo Buford. Learning whether something was a draw or blow note was helpful to me. Their mouth and cheeks told a story. Studying their patterns helped me decipher a lot of licks. This can be hard to do on YouTube which will suffer a lag between audio and video.
See as many players as you can. A lot of people don't do this. Several years ago, I dropped into an Adam Gussow workshop. The place was packed with harp players. All but two of them I have never seen again. I have dropped by some of David Barrett's monthly student jams. Same sort of deal. You only see a few of his students out with any regularity.
Final suggestion: playing blues on a harmonica requires you to do two things. First, learn to play the harmonica. This will take several years. Second, learn about Blues, the people that play it and how to play it. This will also take years. The deeper you dig, the more rewarding your journey will be. This may be the shortest paragraph in this entry, but it is the deepest and most important.
If thats what it takes to be a blues harp player, than il endure that trip. I have alot of free time and i always woodshed the harp 2 hours a day.
There arent many harp players in this city, but i usually seek them out occassionally. I like how some of them play but most of them arent very great players, thet sound out of tune or they play too fast, etc.
Looking back, i probably shouldve bought a marine band set but its too late to change that and these harps have lasted a good amount of time since i bought them, i wont spend my money on combs but i still have to pay 35 bux to get the Noble fixed unfortunarely.
Ive only busked twice for like, half an hour because i was hungry or i needed to get back home. I promised myself i wouldnt busk until i at least know an hour of harp songs and even then i still might not play. I go to an open jam every thursday because the place there isnt packed and the folks there are very tolerant of my playing and they usually give me tips on how to play in a band, al though the harp player there isnt very reliable which is why i went on this fourm in the first place. I dont really know any blues harp players that tour in Toronto either so im stuck in the open jam rut for now.
Fortunately, in High school no one knows what good harp playing and i can get away with copious amounts of woodshedding during lunch, ive been labelled as the guy that plays the harmonica but thats it, really.
Last Edited by ejakon on Aug 07, 2017 10:54 AM
I disagree about the advice not to play in public yet. If the other musicians will let you, go ahead and play whenever and whatever with whoever. I think it's a great way to learn, so long as you continue to practice and work on not making the same mistakes and continually try to improve.
You learn so many things on the bandstand that you won't ever learn anywhere else. That's how I started, and I assure you that when I first started I had no business playing in public on stage with other musicians. But before long (less than a year) I was getting invited back by very good musicians who went out of their way to help me.
Was I any good at that point? Probably not, but I kept trying to get better and eventually I got a whole lot better. So, IMHO, if there's musicians who'll let you do it, go for it!
As far as the blues thing is concerned, the first band who took me under their wing played R&B, roots rock, oldies and a little blues.
The next musicians to nurture me on a regular basis were older black guys originally from the Deep South (US) who played nothing but stone blues. Then came a hot white R&B band which had some musicians with extensive formal training who could play their asses off and taught me a lot. Along the way, there were sit ins with all different kinds of bands and musicians.
When someone asked me in another thread what tunes would I play if someone asked me to play a tune for them, the list I made includes some blues, but a lot more other stuff which, I suppose, indictates that I'm not primarily a BLUES player. Certainly, I am heavily and primarily influenced by American black music. But not only blues.
My point? Blues is important and essential, but it is just one STYLE of music, not a religion. So, it's ok and valuable to play other stuff, too, if you want to and if you like it. FWIW
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 07, 2017 3:23 PM
I actually just like the Blues and jm sticking with it because once im done high school I think im going to bring something to the Blues that hasnt been touched upon lately yet i feel its important to bring it to light. Not yet though, i just want to develop my harp playing first.
If you want to be taken seriously by serious blues players, you've got to learn stuff. I agree, there is a lot of learn on a bandstand, but we've all seen players who aren't ready and the world can be pretty harsh.
Timing. The place to learn time is not on the bandstand.
Learning grooves and what to play. The place to learn various grooves and what to play is not on the bandstand.
Playing songs for the first time. The place to play songs for the first time is not best learned on a bandstand.
Audience members go to shows to be entertained. It isn't always entertaining to watch some inexperienced player who is struggling to operate the instrument play tunes they have never heard before.
There is a tradition of letting new players up, but most pro blues bands want to keep their audience and they like it better when people sitting it have some knowledge of their musical genre.
Here is what EJ has told us about himself...
He's a 16 year old guy who is learning to operate the instrument, learning about how to create pleasing tones thru a vocal mix plugged into a PA, asking about who to listen to in the genre he loves, he has admitted that his playing isn't very good, his time is questionable, etc... is still really early in the learning phase.
I think he would be better served doing some work, so when people see him walking into a place to play, they are happy to see him.
Plus, at 16, he's an oddity because he is still a kid. The bar is set lower than an adult. Once he hits 21 and he can go into bars, the level of expectations and comparisons will increase to that of a typical grown ass man.
Plus, I wouldn't recommend an 18 year old move to a big city and expect to break into a music scene when he can't get into a bar because the drinking age is 21. He's got time to woodshed. In five years, he can be very good if he does his work in a methodical fashion.
Ejakon lives in a big city with some great harp players and there are multiple jams around with very professional level bands to play with. I wish I had this forum or a harp friend to hang out with when I was figuring this out. I to was the young guy waaaaaay younger then the average blues crowd. I used to see Carlos Del Junco weekly along with Jerome Godboo, Michael Pickett, Shrimp Daddy (he's never spoken of on this forum) Dave Rotundo and whoever else came round.
I would suggest finding someone else who plays and is willing to show you a thing or two. Carlos uses a prgram called transcribe that helped me huge with being able to break down licks and fast intricate bends. After playing things I then workd on making it sound full without any tech. I agree with whoever wrote the tech won't hide your tone or enhance it that much. Your tone is your tone.
If your really interested Ejakon I might be able to help you and I'm in Hamilton...
