I'm a member of all these harp groups and I get a lot of these personal harmonica performance videos in my feed. I would say about 90% of them are just god awful. I click on them here and there hoping to be pleasantly surprised and occasionally I am! but mostly they just make me cringe.
Not that anyone should be discouraged from chasing the blues harp dragon and of course it's okay to be a beginner but man, maybe learn a little about music and learn to play a bit before you start making youtube videos of yourself? it seems the "look at me" internet generation combined with the generally low-bar of harmonica skill in the general public is a somewhat toxic mix for me. :) Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot rather than make videos of yourself and remove all doubt?
bombs away!
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Jul 06, 2017 1:03 PM
You had me at "the look -at- me internet generation". I've been saying this for a while, which just makes me a crusty old boot I guess. Hey, every generation chases fame and/or fortune to a certain extent, its part of the human condition. But previously, part of the implied compact was you had to be excellent at something to attain that fame and fortune. Music, comedy, sports, writing, acting, science, business acumen.....something. This is the first generation for whom the compact is: 1) get camera/smartphone 2) go to mommy's basement 3) make video 4) put video on youtube.
As a result, I don't do Facebook, twatter or any of the other social media crap...so I'm not getting "feeds" of anything. No bombs here.
EDITED TO ADD: There are certainly legitimate commercial uses for all the social media platforms and for those that use them as such, kudos to them.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jul 06, 2017 1:29 PM
I've been playing for over 10 years now....and I'm still too shy to say "look at me" when I play.
So I admire the courage of those who put themselves out there....but also cringe at people who act like they are a blues harmonica genius and sound like an accordion going through a wood chipper. I think what is most "cringey" is not that they are putting their stuff up on youtube, but that people are saying "wow, amazing!" in the comments. I just wish more people understood what the harmonica can do so that everyone would know bad harmonica playing as easily as they would know bad piano playing. But I don't see that as something that's going to happen, especially now that the harmonica is far less relevant compared to what it was 50 years ago
One advantage of making recordings, whether you post them or not, is it gives you a historical reference. If you posted a video, you obviously thought you sounded good (Dunning-Kruger?). If you progress in music and learn more about what good is, you can look at what you have done and think, "I can't believe I thought that was good!" While this is humbling, that is not its best value. I think that as you learn more about music you learn how better to discern the good from the bad. As you acquire this knowledge it is easy to perceive that you are going backwards in your ability, when your skills are actually advancing, just not as fast as your ear. Looking back at your old recordings can help confirm this. If you posted those recordings …well, live and learn. You may find yourself realizing that you are better than you were when you thought you were good, but you’re not good, ….yet.
Honkin' on Bobo - you made me laugh. Had never heard it called Twatter before. We should clarify though, it ain't just young fools who are defying the old adage "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to use Twatter and remove all doubt."
i go out every week hoping to capture something i can post here. i haven't posted anything in perhaps a year.
i am not that critical, it does not have to be perfect.. but i do have basic minimum standards. it is a good idea to record all the time. so you can learn from it.
but how many harp players actually learn from their mistakes?... " and of course it's okay to be a beginner"
if you have been playing for 75 years and have never improved... why is that? it is easy to fool yourself into thinking you are blowing the roof of of the place. when in fact you are destroying the song for everyone.
not just harmonica players applies here. if you do not practice you are not getting any better....if you practice the wrong things you are not getting any better.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jul 06, 2017 3:18 PM
What if sharing video/audio of your playing can be thought of as a step forward in your progression as a musician? Also recall that the example to record yourself and post it online has been set by all the great guys we look up to like for example, Adam Gussow. Maybe a possible progression would look like: take up an instrument, practice and study for years, play out at some local open mic nights, maybe some national music conventions, then you share with a much broader audience and open yourself to easier critique in the online realm? I don't routinely share video but some jam groups on FaceBook have members who do and when I sit down to work on something I might share it makes me work harder on it and fine tune it much more then I would if I just practiced it for myself. I think if you don't like the content being shared don't watch any more content of that individual it's not out to get you.
If you are getting the videos on your harp groups, what is the problem? People join such groups to share information and insight about harmonica. Some people may want to share where they are in their journey.
You don't have to click on a video and you don't have to keep watching after you have clicked. Some people want to achieve perfection before they make music publicly, and you don't ever hear them. Some people are stars in their own minds, and they reveal that when they post lame videos. Some people are just testing the waters and sincerely sharing their music.
I would bet that everyone who is revered as a harp master started out playing in public sometime when they didn't sound that great. That public playing and feedback from others guided them toward greater efforts and growth.
Music is an ongoing dynamic process. Live music cannot be overdubbed. What is played is what you get. You try it, and refine.
Many less than masterful players, myself included, play publicly in bands and audiences are generally appreciative. If I waited for perfection I would never be heard and never have the joy of making music with others. Live music is putting yourself out there in the moment.
I don't mind when I see videos or hear performances posted by people who are early in their skill development. I probably won't listen to the whole thing, but I don't view it as an imposition.
However, I don't subscribe to Facebook, and don't receive random feeds of people's performances where the medium (Facebook) is structured to count likes or dislikes or when you ignore a post or feed. It is Facebook that is the imposition. The medium is the message. I think that Facebook is altering communication and interaction, and sometimes not in a good way. ----------
the thing that scares me is; 1] the level of 'delusion of grandeur' so many harp players have- makes me think at what level- am I delusional I've said for years no one is as good, or bad, as they think they are ---
2] There is a huge difference between playing for other musicians or--playing for a general audience. It is also different when playing after or b4, other harp players- as to how a general audience per sieves u. 3] a general audience can enjoy a harp player whos pretty basic -couple trills. 4 hole bend etc and if Im that harp player and prone to being a "prima-dona"-I might think "Im pretty good"--and maybe post it to u tube etc But if yr like many of us, who don't stop there and keep lookin at "other players", who play stuff u can't play-u may continue to grow-otherwise u will stagnate in a pool of "delusional grandeur" THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO NEWER PLAYERS WHO POST FOR "CONSTRUCTIVE ADVISE" They are humble and hungry to learn
I guess I sort of agree w/u -sometimes, Im a little shocked when I hear someone play and or post
---I can tell they think they are "there" but they play like u did 10-20 -30 - 40 years ago-Back then I knew I was at some level of mediocrity- My buddy, got good enough to impress women and then kinda stopped workin at it
LEARNING IS EXCITING-When u are CONSTANTLY; looking at-analyzing-practicing better players stuff-eventually u can play it- then its on to the next thing to learn-U even begin to play their stuff with yr own twist BUT U ARE NEVER "THERE" --when u love music, u keep learning and thank anyone who hires u to play-u show up on time and ready to play "WITH THE BAND" not for the band--
Last Edited by snowman on Jul 07, 2017 9:43 AM
Slaphappy – I don’t think you are a “total snob”. You just have discriminating taste. The combination of smartphones and YouTube/Facebook is a double-edged sword. It used to be that if you wanted to publish your music, you had to rent a recording studio, press some vinyl and distribute your product to the general public and/or get on the radio. That is/was an expensive process so only those who expected to get a return on their investment took the risk. The expense selectively eliminated most of the wannabes. Not all, because there were still some duds, but most. Posting a video to YouTube is free. There are no barriers to entry. Without the filter of expense, you’re going to get a lot of low quality stuff. But the flip side is that you are also going to see/hear a lot of good stuff that you would not have seen/heard otherwise. We all get tons of spam in our in-box. If we are not careful we can get sucked into Facebook or YouTube for hours very easily. Just like allowing yourself to get trapped into watching too much TV. How about the video game addictions kids have? The answer is to create your own filters. It is the good old-fashioned process of elimination. Trial and error. Spam filters. Figure out what don’t like and exclude it. Only keep the channels open to what is important to you. YouTube and Facebook are not going to change. They are only going to get worse with regard the potential to exude toxic information. Evidence the wackos who have used Facebook live to broadcast horrific acts. No, you’re not a snob. Like all of us, we just need to keep our priorities in order and make the internet our servant instead of our master. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Yeah, being able to play the notes does seem important. Otherwise, when we have to negotiate a real stage with people who can play it all sorts out pretty quick.
yeah the only way to find out if a video is any good is to click it. Not sure how I would filter them. I've stumbled across a lot of great stuff and discovered some great players this way so the tradeoff of a high signal-to-noise ratio is worth it, I just get fed up and a little embarrassed sometimes for people. I especially dislike the "here's a video of me just wanking and I didn't work on it too much or anything, tell me what you think!" those are the worst.
ok, now back to watching harmonica video posts all day and feeling smug! ;)
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Jul 07, 2017 1:05 PM
I know where you're coming from, man. I usually don't even bother watching these videos, but I recently wanted to see what was out there (due to this post). I think we have to consider that people may have different motives for posting their playing.
Some people may not have an outlet for their playing just yet. They're just eager to share and get some feedback, participate in the community.(I saw one video from a guy who just learned how to bend. I think he was excited that he finally made a breakthrough.)
In my case, I made videos from the very start of my playing. My reasons were that I wanted to chronicle my path from the very start, to see my progress. I also wanted to share videos with family, who live on the other side of the country and I see once a year (at most).
So I totally get what you're putting down here, Mike, but I think that we have to consider that people are posting videos for different reasons (and not necessarily because they think their playing is so great the world needs to hear it).
But... there are some guys who post because they think they're the next Jason Ricci or Bruce Willis, and those people are delusional. Someone needs to stop them. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
well fair enough Marc, that's a good point about different motivations for sharing.
I just don't want to watch videos of guys just learning to bend, not interested in the slightest. I guess you just gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
OTOH, I found the "Blues Harmonica Player" group on FB yesterday which is partly curated by Paul Osher so that's pretty cool!
BTW, I'm kinda disappointed nobody just called me a snob. You guys are all so cool and calm and composed! ;)
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Ha, funny Mike. I almost did call you a snob, but I was gonna also say I think the same about myself at times. I empathise with those who hate the harmonica, I feel the same sometimes. It can be a very obnoxious instrument. Sometimes I just can't stay in the room when there's a harp in the mix. And then I am prone to examine my own work and become very critical.
I post stuff to chronicle my progress (and cringe at later), share with my friends/relatives overseas, and fellow musos when we do a gig. It may be something to look back at later in life and remember the good times.
I use number of "likes" on Facebook as a filter, but sometimes I am shaking my head when I click play.
Slaphappy, if you only want to see good videos just wait until they have a bunch of likes on them. That should raise the bar a bit.
I think putting up clips is important for getting feedback from better players. If something doesn't strike my fancy and there is nothing I can say about it I just move on. If there is a suggestion I can make I make it. And it's possible to have suggestions even when the other player is better than you. We all have different strengths. The worst thing that will happen is they won't take your suggestion.- well, unless they are crazy go nuts on you!
I think some of this comes down to whether any given online forum is professional showcase or a learning community. This factor can influence how we evaluate uploaded performances and perhaps even what we choose to upload ourselves.
I was a school band director for many years. Sometimes I'd hear a beginning 5th grade student play a single note with a steady tone for a few seconds and be very impressed. I did not, of course, tell the child that he or she should immediately quit grade school and audition for the Chicago Symphony. When I was preparing a high school student for the state solo contest, I had an entirely different set of standards, and I have higher standards yet of what I expect to hear from professional musicians.
If we are simply adjudicating performances by professional standards, there is much on the Internet and the world as a whole to be criticized. When one is reviewing a live performance or a new CD, this standard is appropriate.
However, when we are listening to the efforts of an aspiring play who is relatively new to the instrument, the best service we can provide is to be appreciative of whatever skill is being shown, and help to point that person toward the next step of their development. This doesn't mean we should tell them that they are "awesome" or "you rock" (as though someone WANTS to rock). Instead, we can provide positive and balanced guidance, just as others have done, or still do, for us. Aside from a few narcissistic maniacs who might prefer a political life, this is probably what most uploaders want (and need) to hear. Sometimes it is more kind to be honest rather than polite.
So what would we now say to young 1991 Jason (in whom I now stand in awe as a master of our instrument)?
Should we tell him that this is totally awesome, though it's not? Should we tell him he's a "wanker" and he should "sod off" for 26 years (or much less) when he has his ship together?
I'd suggest that those listening at the time might have told him that he has incredible energy, good tone, and some decent licks. It could also have suggested that he really listen to the bass and focus on the anchoring his playing on the chord progression, while ignoring the efforts of most of the young players around him.
Then again, I'm still very much a learner myself, and am more in need of input than to give advice to others. My point is that experienced musicians can both recognize strengths and give recommendations to help others along the journey, even though almost none of us will reach Jason's current level of playing.
Regarding the false equivalency between the Jason post and internet narcissists.
If you can't tell the difference between what Jason posted many years after the fact, which was filmed by a third party and part of an ensemble performance, and which Jason himself commented on saying he is embarrassed its up there but you gotta start somewhere...and the random twat who points a camera at himself in his basement and sends the result to a bunch of not so close friends; there is no hope for you.
Well, unless the random twat is this guy, he can do anything (Ferris always was way ahead of his time):
Larry. help me out here, what notes is he playing?
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jul 11, 2017 12:27 PM
As I said above, "I would bet that everyone who is revered as a harp master started out playing in public sometime when they didn't sound that great. That public playing and feedback from others guided them toward greater efforts and growth. "
The internet and social media have made, and are making, significant changes in how people communicate. Like any communication tools, there are good uses, questionable uses, and uses that have negative impact.
There are many more serious concerns related to these changes than whether we are exposed to self aggrandized harmonica music that is actually sub par. ----------
In general, I think most musicians are fairly competitive and, as an audience, we tend to be jerks. In other words, we are really hard on others with the attitude we (or others) can do it better. So, that doesn't help from the go.
But there is a whole "look at me" with posting harmonica videos from a bedroom/office. Sadly, I think it happens a lot for the simple fact it can be hard to get a real gig. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
There is a study in psychology. They took a bunch of kids and had them all take a pretty simple test. They then a) told them that they were really smart, or b) told them that their test showed they'd tried really hard. Then they gave both groups a second test, but first they asked if they wanted a harder test or another one that was about the same.
The kids who were told they were smart wanted to take a test that was about the same. The kids who were praised for trying hard were eager to try something harder.
I think that's a good thing to remember when giving critiques. When people are taught that hard work gets praised they will try harder. When they are told they are brilliant they worry that if they try harder stuff they may fail and disprove how brilliant they are.
Of course, there wasn't a third group in the test. It would have been interesting (although probably unethical) to see how other groups would respond to being told they were terrible, stupid or didn't try hard. I'm guessing you'd get some people trying harder/giving up, getting discouraged, or becoming distrustful of the system.
I try to be encouraging, but I also try to offer concrete suggestions that can improve someone's playing. When the shoe is on the other foot I like useful critique too, but I try to always take it with a grain of salt.
I guy I used to play with an I had written a song. I tend to like to have my songs tell a story. He thought, in this case that that made this song 'hokey'. He cut a few lines from it (that he did it unilaterally on a song we co-wrote bugged me a bit, but ultimately he was the one singing it). Anyway, we played it at a songwriter's circle and one of the other singers commented that it needed more of a storyline to it. Instead of disagreeing, or instead of fixing it, my friend, who just 10 minutes earlier had really liked the song decided it sucked and dropped it entirely from the rotation. He's a talented guy, but he never really learned how to not let a little criticism ruin things for him.
Snobbishness is something that I suspect few of us can claim to be free of.Loosely speaking, if you've listened to blues harp players for a while, have more or less created your pantheon of players who meet your criterion for greatness, and have something resembling a rating system (in your mind,at least) with which you judge players by, then you have a form of snobbery. Being a snob, in this sense,doesn't make you a bad person, only that you do , indeed, have tastes that you developed over years and are able to explain them . What I might try to avoid,though, is combining the snob aspect of music preferences with that of becoming a dilettante . A dilettante is , in the general sense, who has encyclopedic grasp of a portion of the ever expansive body of knowledge available to us. Most of them don't mean to be this way, but they have a habit of going beyond sharing passion for an art with others and wind up of doing a data dump in what should be casual , if passionate , conversation. tburke4@san.rr.com
Mike Z - I don’t think you’re a snob. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should to be done. Technology exists. Using the technology for good, instead of evil is key.
1. I think recording yourself and listening to the recordings is a great way to improve a person’s skills. Recordings don’t lie. Not all recordings need to be shared. When a person is learning to play an instrument, they usually have an idea on what they should sound like. They should be able to compare that “ideal sound” to their recording and get an idea of what works and what work is needed. Unfortunately, some people need the affirmation of others because they may not have developed their ear or they need someone to tell them that they are on the right track. Others need to post stuff to force themselves to practice.
2. Sometimes, a person (friend or enemy) shoots a video of their friends and posts them online so their other friends can see them. You can’t really blame the player for that one.
3. Quite often, I find videos featuring horrible players quite entertaining. The one’s that bother me feature the people with enormous egos. Most of the very good players that I have come across in my life have been pretty humble people.
4. If a person is going to record a solo video of themselves, the least they could do is trim the beginning and the end. When a person fails to edit the part of the video where they are walking from the camera to their seat before they start playing and/or when they stop playing and begin the death march back to the camera after they finish the concerto, it just screams, “I don’t know jack about editing video OR I just don’t care enough.”
5. Why is it that everyone making these videos almost all play the same tunes? The classic tunes are classic for a reason. They are so well done that very few will attain the level to do those songs justice, but that doesn’t stop anyone from attempting it and posting the result on the Internet without trimming the start and the finish.
6. We got some new equipment and want to show it off or we have some point to make about equipment making a huge difference or about how equipment doesn’t make a difference.
I've only read the OP--I'll read the remaining posts after I post--but I heartily agree. Too much "Look man, no hands!" and not enough....well, Joe Pass sitting on a stool, playing, exuding mastery.
Playing music very well takes time. I have bags full of old cassette tapes marked "Adam's harp maunderings." Just a 20-something wannabe playing obsessively for hours.
I'm quite sure that nobody on YouTube would be interested in that.
On second thought......
But that's the point. I would want to hear Magic Dick's harp maunderings. He got good. I might learn something.
When you're not yet good, or even passable, it's probably a good idea not to share--except in networks like this website's beginners forum, or here (if you've got a tough hide), where you've got a captive audience of critics.
[Edited to add: the OP did say "harp groups," or something like that. So maybe Slaphappy is being too snobbish. Maybe there's a place for workshopping, and that needs to be understood.]
My harp maunderings of, say, 1985, would provoke laughs here. Maybe I'll dig one out, digitize it, and post, just to give y'all a laugh.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 10, 2017 4:57 PM
"3. Quite often, I find videos featuring horrible players quite entertaining. The one’s that bother me feature the people with enormous egos. Most of the very good players that I have come across in my life have been pretty humble people." -Joe L
This, so much!
A group of my friends used to go to an open mic every week, rain or shine. We went for 2-3 years straight. Some people were terrible. There were only three types of people we didn't clap for- people who didn't watch other performers (they'd send someone to sign them up, show up for their set and leave... no sense of community, or sit around being really loud until it was their turn), people who were nasty/racist/etc., and people who had huge egos (particularly if they didn't have the goods to back it up.)
I think posting videos of yourself, even if you aren't good and now that I think about it, even if you aren't specifically looking for feedback, may be a good thing. I've seen new performers go up on stage at open mics who technically know their stuff but who get panicked in front of a crowd. As the weeks go by they get more and more comfortable and enjoyable to listen to. In the digital world, where YouTube can make you a star, maybe the process of getting comfortable involves putting yourself up where you face the possibility of being criticized. I mean, really, how many people on this forum have actually posted clips/videos of their stuff and how many more are too afraid? Think of it as exposure (the psychological kind, not the publicity kind).
And the ego? Maybe even the ego is okay. Sometimes it's trying on a costume, and exercise in projecting confidence. How do you tell that from the people who are actually jerks or who are suffering Dunning-Kruger effect? Watch how they treat the other people around them.
On FB I probably only actually watch 1/5th of the videos that pop up in my feed. I watch the people I know I will enjoy and then occasionally something else, which occasionally leads to great things and occasionally to being able to offer encouragement or advice.
And always, remember, what a harmonica/guitar/piano pro considers crappy will usually still wow someone who doesn't play. (Seriously, I'm an intermediate player, and I get way more respect from non-harp players than I think I deserve- I'm always comparing myself to harp players on the forum).
