I'll be honest: I'm struggling to get the right sound and groove on shuffles in my current OMB + guitar configuration. The standard blues shuffle has the kick on every downbeat and the snare on 2 and 4. The other way to do it is the spare tire shuffle, with the kick on every beat and the snare on every upbeat. B. B. King has some early blues like this; Stevie Ray's texas shuffles sometimes do it that way. That's pretty much the only way I've been able to carry it. The problem is, unless you keep the upbeat volume (on snare and/or tambo pedal) low, the whole thing feels unbalanced; the loping upbeat distracts from the anchoring of the groove.
I know one OMB who keeps the shuffle the right (i.e., first) way, and he's a friend of mine, Paul Mack. He's got a killer groove--and is a hell of singer as well.
Please post other videos of OMB (drummer/instrumentalists) carrying a shuffle groove.
I can keep Paul's type of groove, but I can't maintain it while I'm soloing. I may have to go deep into the woodshed.
And while I'm at it.....
Here's a second track. Paul is playing the kick on 1 and 3 and the snare on 2 and 4. This is an outrageously funky groove, and I can't figure out where the magic comes from. But it's there. The guitar playing, perhaps? This drumming, and the groove-vibe it creates, is the definition of "less is more." I tend to play more. It sometimes leads to less.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jun 12, 2017 12:30 PM
Kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4 is also basic old school funk's simplest foundation. The magic is what occurs all around it...guitar is playing funky rhythms that focus more on the last 16th note of four note 16th patterns, wherever they fall within the measure. In other words, not always that last 16th note of the bar, as there are four times four 16 notes/measure.
As the only white guy in an all black funk band back when I was living in Orlando, I sure was schooled on "feeling" where this accent fell. I remember days during rehearsal, when I was feverishly counting in my head (1 a and a 2 a and a 3 a and a 4 a and a) to find all the 16th notes while intellectually trying to force my hands to accent the chord I was playing on one of the last "a" of each 4 notes - and finding WHICH of these four "a"'s were the important ones. Whew! My brain was frying. Not to mention the amused look on the faces of my bandmembers, who luckily were patient enough with me to not toss me out of the band for being too white. They kept saying "No, man. You DON'T COUNT IT. Ya gotta FEEL it!" Needless to say, it took me many months before one day - CLICK - I started to feel it, much to the amazement and amusement of the rest of the band. Not only did I "get it" and "felt it", I could now lay down some grooves of my own that were truly funky and, at times, lead the rest of the band into some pretty fun jams with the focus on FUNKY!
One group that wrote the book on old school funk was Parliament/Funkadelic, and their early songs are great examples of what I am talking about.
So, I pass this story on to Kudzu in hopes that he may find some useful insight into funky groovin'. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 12, 2017 12:53 PM
Thanks for those insights, Iceman. I didn't realize that funk had kick only on 1 and 3. I'm going to try that. I discovered the "late" 16th note thing when I tried to tab out "Cissy Strut" some years ago and, as I slapped out the melody on my desk, realized that there were three different upbeats for every downbeat: early, middle, and late. You're talking about the late one.
Here's a video in which a guy plays NINETEEN different shuffles in a row. TMI. My brain is hurting. But it's good to know that somebody has thought this stuff through!
Old School Detroit Style - way back in the beginning. Kick on 1 and 3. snare (and hand claps) on 2 and 4. Once you get that down in your ear, listen to everything that swirls around this foundation - vocals coming in and out, weird synth licks and that funky guitar. Some day I'll tell you about almost being part of the Parliament/Funkadelic collective due to my rock band being produced in United Sound Studio for a record by Calvin Simon, one of the original members of Parliament.
I'm sorry that I hijacked the thread and encouraged Iceman to continue the hijack, interesting as the hijack is. I'm specifically looking to upgrade my shuffle groove. My funk groove is good enough for now. I'm seeking videos in which drummer/instrumentalists in a blues vein carry shuffle grooves.
As for counting vs. feeling: you do both. Either one alone ain't enough.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jun 12, 2017 5:21 PM
When I say "counting," I realize I'm using it in a technical sense that is specific to this thread. I'm talking like a drummer who is reading drum music--including Bernard Purdie, for that matter. I'm interested in what percussion instrument is doing what when. As a foot drummer, I need to know this. I played for many years with one of the greatest foot-percussionists who has ever lived, and he never counted anything. Still: his shuffles sometimes sucked. Trust me: I was there. What he arrived at, most of the time we played shuffles, was 1 and 3 on the right hi-hat and 2 and 4 on the left. That may be where I need to go: left right left right.
I mean really: listen to that guy. Ridiculous.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jun 12, 2017 6:03 PM
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
"guy plays NINETEEN different shuffles in a row. TMI. My brain is hurting. But it's good to know that somebody has thought this stuff through!"
I've been working on understanding rhythm from the drummer's point of view and it gets really subtle and deep.
One thing I've done is to have a lesson with a great local drummer just to talk about different grooves and how they work.
Another is good old book learning. A couple of useful books are "The Commandments of Early Rhythm and Blues Drumming" by Zoro and Daniel Glass, and "Groove Alchemy" by the great New Orleans drummer Stanton Moore. The Stanton Moore book is more funk oriented but there is a chapter on shuffles.
Slaphappy: That's a great cut--Dr. Ross was one of my big influences--but it's not a shuffle at all. It's straight time, not shuffle time; there's no underlying triplet rhythm, which is a requirement for a shuffle. I'd call it a breakdown of sorts.
At the Shared Harvest harmonica retreat I was given a regular kickdrum and a hi-hat stand w/cymbals as my percussion setup, and I really liked the hi-hat. I may buy one. I'll post a few videos by and by.
