I love playing chromatic in 3rd, especially on jump tunes. Since a lot of jump stuff is in Bb I have often thought of taking the Ab plate from a G chromatic and the A plate from an A chromatic and making an Ab chromatic.
That would be pretty cool. It could be either a flat side A harp, or a regular Ab depending on how you put the slide in. It sounds like a project for the Seydel configurator. Or if you swapped plates from a couple of 270s you would end up with a slide diatonic like the Seydel sampler with Bb and G plates and an Ab chromatic. It might be less expensive to retune the G plate to an A. Grinding down 24 reeds two semitones is a bit of work though.
I just use a G chromatic with the button in for "3rd position" to play in Bb. It is really playing in 10th position on a G chromatic.
It isn't that hard to learn how to let the button out to play transitional notes by flatting them. Just a different pattern than when you have the button out and push in for sharping transitional notes. You would likely use a G chromatic more often than an Ab. ----------
Yup G chrom with the button in. It's very much like playing in A with the button out. Still have the b3 & b7 without moving the button. You need a draw with the slide out for b5.
Last Edited by Tuckster on May 10, 2017 6:16 PM
You can still use the button, you just flat notes by letting it out instead of sharping notes by pushing it in. This is applicable when playing any key of chromatic, and gives you more options for playing in different keys without having to buy/build all 12 keys of chromatics. It means learning a different pattern when using the slide that way.
However, I understand where you are coming from. I encountered a similar situation after I learned how to play in Bb using an A chromatic while holding the button in for "first position". This is really in 8th position and you let the button out to flat the note for transitional notes, ornaments, flatted notes, etc.
I found that I could do this successfully but was still better and more fluid when using a chromatic in first, so I bought a Bb chromatic. I probably should have kept practicing with the button in, but I wanted quicker results so I could play in Bb in first to accompany a female singer when she sang "Oh, Darling".
I think it is still worth learning how to play holding the button in and letting out the slide for flats, sort of flat slide style without flipping the slide. It makes the most of those keys you have already. If you can play in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th on one chromatic and learn how to play with the button in, that is 8 keys on one chromatic. ----------
Yeah unfortunately Gnarly's right you can't do that because you would trying to make the bottom plate of a G harp the top plate of a "Ab" harp. The notes of each hole would get reversed! I think Seydel is your best option.
The other option to consider is if you already have a Bb chromatic, then why not play it in 1st position?? I've played a key of C chromatic in 1st position and George Harmonica Smith has several recordings doing exactly that. As an example, the horn lines from the T-Bone Walker classic, Strollin' With 'Bone, if you use the slide, falls into 1st position perfectly. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hering also makes chromatics in every key. The trick is trying to find one! I sure wish they had a robust US distributor. Of course, I work for the competition, so I lose zero sleep over it--but Hering chromatics are easy to bend, and usually equitably priced. Kevin's Harp House used to sell them--now, I think Harp Depot is the main US dealer, but they seem to be out of stock on everything. I am finding the key of Ab to be quite pleasant on my most used chromatic, it's a 12 hole tuned to Orchestra Bebop--Ab fits quite nicely, and there are all three chords (Ab is the draw chord, albeit without a root [it's actually a 7/9 {Bb C Eb Gb}], Db is the blow chord [again with a b7], and there is a two note Eb chord [G Bb--don't forget it's bebop tuned]). As pointed out elsewhere here, it's second position with the slide in. Sentimental Journey sounds great--perhaps a video is in order.
Update: Just ran the configurator for a Seydel Deluxe Chromatic in Ab--steel reeds, starts on Ab3 so it's 4 semitones lower than a standard chrom (which puts it in a good range, in my opinion), it will run you $400, including shipping in the US.
More rambling: I tuned an SCX-64 to Bb one time, wound up selling it to Mike Peace. Mike is in Tulsa, I am looking forward to spending some time with him in August at SPAH.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 11, 2017 11:49 AM
@Crawforde I could easily take the bottom G#/Ab plate of of a G Hering and the top plate off of an A Hering chromatic and assemble a combo that would be an Ab chromatic. I would keep the Ab plate on the bottom and A plate on the top and just flip the slide. I wouldn't do it because I would then have a Bb plate and a G plate left, using two combos to make one. It just isn't worth it.
Better to play Ab on a G, button in. I just messed with it and in 3rd position it was pretty easy to use the slide and sound good.
Straight tuned harps are easy to work on and easy to figure out which note is which! ----------
The OP was about playing in Bb--IMHO, Bb is an easy key--of course, I am used to Bebop tuning, it might be harder if you didn't have a Bb given. What is the consensus here, is Bb a comfortable key on a C chromatic? I would think it would be OK on a G, that would be like Eb, 3rd position as you say, but if major, requiring some button moves.
@Gnarly I think in the OP he spoke of 3rd position jump blues. Generally that references the approach used by William Clarke, Rod Piazza, etc, coming from George Smith, using fat chords. That is why there has been a focus on an Ab chromatic or G with the button in instead of playing in Bb on a C. The fat, nasty chords... ----------
@Dougharps That would certainly be easier to achieve on a G or Ab chrom-- And my other question is probably more appropriate for a different forum. Cheers everybody.
And that is a G harp! Dennis is playing lots of pentatonics here--not many D naturals, so it's Bbm . . . blues will do that of course, the guitar player is using Bb7, it's a standard 12 bar blues progression. When the guitarist solos he is also playing mostly minor, but not exclusively, he's playing the odd D natural.
I also play guitar-for 5 years exclusively-Doug is def NOT playing Bb minor here-or the 7th -its Bb Major chording throughout-
Last Edited by tmf714 on May 11, 2017 5:24 PM
@tmf714 It's a blues--he's not playing major 7ths. He also uses some 9ths and etc. I like his playing. Bb7 is Bb D F Ab--I never said he was playing Bbm, only that Dennis was employing the chrom as 3rd position minor with the button in. Which would be Bbm6--Bb Db F G. He uses the button but not for the D, which is the major 3rd of Bb. He's a blues player, right? I'm not trying to offend anyone.
@dougharps Your right I didn't think of that. I probably didn't think of it because it would be a waste using two to get one, but it is possible and I think that's what was interested in knowing! I think buying a Seydel Ab is the better idea though.
Last Edited by chromaticblues on May 12, 2017 6:34 AM
•1. Rockin’ All Day-Bb (G chromatic/10th) •2. Roll Your Moneymaker-F (Bb/2nd, Low Bb/2nd for last 12 bars of solo) •3. The Rev-A/Bb (G chromatic/3rd-10th) •4. Saturday Night Fish Fry-Bb (G chromatic/10th) •5. One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer-G (Low F/3rd) •6. She’s So Pretty-F (Bb/2nd) •7. You Can Do No Wrong-A (Low D/2nd) •8. It Went Down Easy-Eb (Ab/2nd) •9. 2:22 AM-F (Bb/2nd) •10. What’s Wrong With Me-C (Low F/2nd, Low Low F/2nd for first solo) •11. Bloodshot Eyes-C (Bb chromatic/3rd) •12. Actin’ Crazy-A (G/3rd, Low G/3rd for second solo) •13. Hotso-B (A/3rd)
Aha. So he calls it 10th if he plays in 3rd with the button in. As you see in track 3. Got it. Didn't know I play in 10th ;-)
Last Edited by Little roger on May 12, 2017 7:23 AM
Position is determined by the key of the instrument and the key of the music being played, using the circle of 5ths. That is why I put "third position" button in, using quotes, and then named the actual 10th position, based on the instrument and music keys and the circle of 5ths.
If you don't use the button when you play with it in, there is no noticeable difference from 3rd, but if you do use it, there is a difference and you have to shift your playing to compensate for the slide release flattening the note as opposed to a button push sharping it.
The only difference in the scale intervals available with the button in are the 12 hole draw notes. I would have to retune those two notes if I built the Ab from a G# and A plate as I described above. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 12, 2017 7:25 AM
So I really do play in 10th. Never thought of it like that. Just 3rd where I have to use the button slightly differently. But have never noticed the 12th hole difference before - thanks.
I understand where you guys are coming from,but referring to positions on a chromatic just gives me a headache. I just think of it as whatever key I'm playing. It's a chromatic instrument,so we can talk about modes but not position. I'm still a rank beginner on it,but it has so many possibilities. Just using it for 3rd position aka Dorian mode is like having a Ferrari and only driving it to WalMart.
@Tuckster I use positional language, but try to think of the letter names of the notes, and the intervallic relationship. 3rd is Dorian, but can be Ionian if you make the F and C notes sharp. That's not what Dennis is doing here, button or no--he's doing the Dorian thing. And it's 10th, for sure, or you can call it "3rd with the button in".
Tmf- doesn't particularly matter what Dennis says, if you play 3rd position with the button in, the notes are exactly the same. Unless you use the slide extensively and even that is related to 3rd. Arguing positions may be interesting and even useful but tbh it isn't here. If you pick up a chromatic and play in 3rd, push the button and you can play the same stuff a semi tone higher, which is exactly what the old blues guys did in the day. Yes, that's not a modern approach ....
"Same note layout"--except that Richter and Solo are only the same in the middle octave. Well, I'm calling thread drift, I will post no more on this one, thanks to all for participating. Have fun without me--see you on another thread.
@Tuckster Yeah, it strains the brain. You wouldn't need to do it, you could just name key names, if you only used a C chromatic. But if you use different keys of chromatic harmonicas other than C it gets tricky.
It is easier IMHO to talk numbered positions on a given key of chromatic than to use key names for the positions like Smokey Joe Leone does. He talks about playing F position playing an A chromatic, so you are playing in D. He names the positions by what key it would be if you were playing a C chromatic. I would rather call it 12th position on an A chromatic to play in D, and not throw more key signatures into the confusion.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 12, 2017 10:49 AM
"Same note layout"--except that Richter and Solo are only the same in the middle octave-Exactly Gnarly! Well,there more than one way to skin a cat,I guess. I'm always interested in easier ways to learn the darned thing,so I'd be willing to try his way.
Doug-yes I was referring to a C chrom.Smokey's terminology would give me a headache too!Your way of thinking is working for you. I love the way you play it. You just know C,G,and D on a C chrom? or 1st,2nd and 3rd as you would put it.Switch harp keys and there is a lot of options right there.
@Tuckster I play in Am on a C a lot, too. 4th position works well on certain minor songs. Summertime in Am is a good example. Here is one in Am:
When I switched to diatonic from chromatic a long time back after about 9 or 10 years of chromatic alone, I stopped playing in 2nd for G because the switch to diatonic confused me. Years later I resumed chromatic. I have been periodically revisiting G on chromatic during the last year or two, but am not as fluent in it yet as I am in C, D, and Am. I am occasionally messing with F and Bb on a C, too.
The fun with harmonica is that you will never run out of things to work on. ----------
@tmf714 I have that Night Cats CD and have always liked that song!
Thanks also for posting Dennis's song and the list of keys. Dennis is awesome, saw him at a SPAH playing with Doug Demming and also at one of Joe Filisko's afternoon teach-ins. I also saw him at a few SPAHs a while back at the late night jams as he was approaching his current high level of playing. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 12, 2017 1:55 PM
