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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
nacoran makes mostly good decisions
nacoran makes mostly good decisions
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The Iceman
3102 posts
May 06, 2017
8:18 AM
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However, IMO, his reason for locking the Bushman thread just because he asked John how his company is doing and John said "great!" is not a good decision.
The type of feedback in this thread is partly good information on these types of reed plates, the problems experienced, and also people's experience with John is valuable to the community. We want to promote good products and good service to our listers and to make them aware of potential problems in making their decisions of what and where to buy.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 06, 2017 8:18 AM
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Killa_Hertz
2333 posts
May 06, 2017
9:28 AM
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True. ( I'm not doubting Nates choice. Merely commenting on the issue. )
Iceman I can see both sides of it.
Without putting words in Nates mouth...
Those who have been around awhile have seen that particular conversation more than a few times. I wasn't here for them,but I have gone back and read a few of them. Some of em got pretty crazy.
So while I do agree that we should always call a spade a spade ... I think nate is just trying to keep the peace. And it's always shakey ground when we are discussing someone that is also a member of the forum.
On the other side of the coin. Not everyone is as informed and we likely have new members here who don't know anything about past controversies. So it's important that we keep everyone informed on "what's the what".
Having said all that... im glad I don't have to play Referee.
Keep up the good work.
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Cotton
86 posts
May 06, 2017
9:40 AM
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A horse fell down, We all saw it, yet it is still kicking. Why do we need to keep beating it??
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dougharps
1425 posts
May 06, 2017
9:42 AM
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I support nacoran's decision to lock the thread. I don't think it was locked due to the cited statement by the vendor. I think it was locked because more than sufficient commentary was already posted that would alert any reader to customer concerns.
I have seen this in other threads that build until people are piling on and each side becomes entrenched in negativity.
There is a point at which informational statements of concern become repetitive, the conversation loses focus, and the exchange of ideas becomes a pecking party. Enough had been said...
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 06, 2017 9:44 AM
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kudzurunner
6223 posts
May 06, 2017
11:19 AM
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Nacoran locked the thread because everybody in the immediate vicinity had been allowed to voice whatever dissatisfactions they had, at length, including the Iceman. When I created this forum, almost a decade ago, I intended it to be a place where blues harmonica players could freely exchange information. It is still that. But there are limits on the free exchange of information. I never intended this forum to be a place where players who had had a disappointing relationship with a vendor would be given unlimited space in which to gripe.
I'm fine with the basic exchange of information in this case, but I'm also fine--more than fine--with Nate's judgment call. He didn't consult me at any point in the process; I'm just reading the locked thread, and this thread, now. But I approve of the lockage.
I can guarantee you that John Hall thinks that the members of this forum have been given much too MUCH license to freely express their gripes about Bushman harmonicas. We are always looking for a workable balance. I offer all these observations without even considering libel laws and what, if any, legal liability I might have for somebody who, hiding behind a handle, decided to spread false and malicious information about, for example, John and/or Bushman. I'm not saying that libelous communications show up in the thread in question; I'm just saying that the possibility of such mischief sits on the outside of what I am always required to consider, as majordomo and owner of this website and forum. (Note: John Hall has NOT contacted me about this thread.)
Nate has done yeoman service for MBH for quite a while and I'm extremely happy for that.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on May 06, 2017 11:24 AM
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nacoran
9451 posts
May 06, 2017
3:42 PM
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Iceman, we've had previous threads locked on the topic, so I was keeping a close eye on the thread. Specifically the reason I locked it was twofold. First, as has been said, it wasn't covering new ground and was breeding some hostility. I'd tried to point that out several posts back but the thread kept going.
The second reason is because of the few posts that were speculating beyond the scope of opinion.
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I went to school with the idea of becoming a journalist. Life got in the way but we had classes and seminars devoted to the topic of libel and slander. I've tried to keep up to date on legal developments, but here is the general lay of the land.
Libel is the written word and slander is the spoken word. Other than that the rules are fairly interchangeable. I'll just use libel here, but in all cases I mean libel/slander. There are two general categories of people you can libel. The lower bar is for private citizens. Joe Shmoe has a lower bar for winning a case. A private citizen just has to prove that he has been damaged by incorrect information put up on the web. A public personality has to prove that they have been damaged, that the information was incorrect and that there was malice in putting that information out there. (And then of course, there is the satire exception.)
The definition of public and private persons varies case by case. Hall is, in the context of the harmonica world, a public figure. In that specific context you can criticize him and if it turns out you just got your facts wrong you are in the clear, at least on the topic of harmonicas.
If, however, and let's switch examples, you were to say Iceman eats babies (he doesn't, this is just an example) and that damaged his reputation the poster might be vulnerable to libel charges- Iceman may also have enough visibility in the harmonica world to be a public figure relating to harmonica, but not relating to eating babies. (You could say that as part of satire, but not on the forum, since that would violate other forum rules.)
So, if you don't have a dog in the race, you can say crazy things about public people but have to be guarded talking about private people, and depending on the situation the same person may be a public or private person. What I saw, in the thread, was a mix of malice (malice doesn't, in the libel world mean you are a bad person, just that you are attacking for attackings sake) and statements about things that were speculative (how his business was doing, where his harps were being made) that could damage his reputation. I had not yet seen a single thread that combined both elements, but it seemed like it was likely heading that way.
Which brings us to the last point, what liability the site has. If the site just allows every post to stay up, well then actually the site has very little liability... but we tried that at one point and although we muddle through most of the time without problems these days we do still occasionally actively remove some content. That actually changes the rules a bit and creates a little more liability on our end. If we allowed libel, because we are a moderated site, we could potentially be liable, if we don't, in good faith, try to prevent libelous content from staying on the forum.
As to John Hall, well, when I first approached him on facebook to see if he would like to respond to the thread, he said he was aware of it and he was happy to let the response of his supporters speak for him... (he was kind of nasty about it, but that's neither here nor there.)
So I kept the thread open but kept an eye on it. For what it's worth, I doubt Hall would get litigious. I'm sure he's aware of the Streisand Effect. That said, for the reasons above I decided to shut things down.
You are always welcome to question my calls. It's an important way for me to learn. You are also, by the way, welcome to contact me directly about it. One of the things that does work very well with our software is the 'lock thread' ability. It's a reversible decision (unlike deleting a thread, which is not reversible).
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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The Iceman
3104 posts
May 06, 2017
7:07 PM
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Since this is an open forum and we are in the United States, I merely voiced my opinion, even putting IMO at the beginning.
Personally, I didn't see much vindictive for vindictive's sake, but mostly feedback comments on harmonica design and problems with it. Also, I saw people just reporting their direct contact/lack of contact and customer service/lack of customer service.
These are valuable resources for the community.
I would have a differing opinion of where that line is drawn between real reporting of facts and vindictiveness for its own sake.
Viva la difference.
I'm not the monitor. You are. I still feel a right to voice my opinion, though.
btw, babies are delicious with a little ketchup.
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The Iceman
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Gnarly
2174 posts
May 06, 2017
10:29 PM
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I deal with harmonica players at my day job, harp tech for Suzuki.
"No one can please everyone, but we try."
Please don't vote me off the island, I like it here.
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MindTheGap
2246 posts
May 07, 2017
12:20 AM
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Nate has to make decisions, some are clear cut, some are subtle. It's clear the motive is to keep the forum running smoothly. In that setup, it's everyone else's responsibility simply to accept it. There'd be exceptions if you think something's gone badly wrong, but I don't think that's the case here.
Nate's style is a gentle hand on the tiller, which is good. It doesn't work so well if the decisions are picked over.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 07, 2017 12:25 AM
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ted burke
553 posts
May 07, 2017
12:11 PM
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No one was expressing outright hatred for Mr.Hall, but enough was enough. He's been the subject of a number of threads in this forum over recent time, as well as the subject of much critical discussion on other harmonica forums. Nate, in fact, was a bit too generous in keeping the thread open as long as he did, in my view. There remains such a thing as caveat emptor--let the buyer beware. Mr.Hall's reputation, such as it is, that someone interested in his products can google his name or his company for customer reviews. Such search results bring up past topics on this forum, which potential buyers are free to read among other results . They are free to make their choice. The locked down thread was needless and redundant; going back to the subject of John Hall indicates a degeneration in things relating to blues harmonica playing. It's static, not music to the ears.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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The Iceman
3105 posts
May 07, 2017
12:53 PM
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As usual, I disagree with Mr. Burke. (no surprise here)
With constant new members joining the forum, this information is valuable and should be no problem if it is revisited from time to time.
The buyer beware you should do your own research philosophy is somewhat old school and many young folk don't really think like that, so this becomes a valuable resource to them as well.
I don't find Nate being too generous at all for keeping it open. In no way did I find the thread to be needless and redundant.
btw, Mr. Burke - This forum covers harmonica playing, buying, selling, customizing, customer service - the whole gamut!
I also disagree with the comment "Nate has to make decisions, some are clear cut, some are subtle. It's clear the motive is to keep the forum running smoothly. In that setup, it's everyone else's responsibility simply to accept it"
Nothing wrong with questioning or challenging Nate's decision. I believe Nate doesn't have a problem with questioning him, as long as it is a civil discussion.
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The Iceman
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MindTheGap
2247 posts
May 07, 2017
1:23 PM
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I know you disagree, I disagreed with you first. Shall we go round again?
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ted burke
554 posts
May 07, 2017
1:46 PM
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Larry, your passive/aggressive post was entirely uncalled for. I know you don't care for my views, but I find it questionable that you bring my name into your latest entry. I spoke my piece without citing you by name.
"btw, Mr. Burke - This forum covers harmonica playing, buying, selling, customizing, customer service - the whole gamut!"
As a response, that is condescending nonsense, Larry. It only shows that you didn't consider what was being said. I read your topic post, considered it, and composed my response. It ought to have been that simple for you. Now you're picking a fight. This is school yard stuff, friend. You should know better.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on May 07, 2017 1:46 PM
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nacoran
9452 posts
May 07, 2017
2:09 PM
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Let's not keep the other thread open by proxy in this one guys. If a new player asks about Bushman, you are free to answer, but that thread was doing more than answer.
I don't mind being questioned on my decisions, but let me be clear here, if questioning my call also extends the original topic and is used as an end run way to keep discussing the original topic... well that is very different than just voicing your opinion, it's skirting the decision. If anyone wants to continue this conversation, I am more than happy to do so off forum. If you want to discuss, in the abstract, why I made this decision, you can continue on this thread, although I think I made my point pretty clearly.
(The funny thing is, of course, that we all, when we get right down to it, seem to have the same opinion on the subject).
If a beginner is starting out and they ask what brand they should buy, feel free to keep brand x off your recommendations. If someone asks specifically about them, answer honestly, but keep it limited to what you know. Let's not speculate that brand x is made with people.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Raven
93 posts
May 07, 2017
3:21 PM
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I think we need a bigger sandbox, boys...so that everyone has a place to play nicely...and try not to get sand stuck in your reed plates.
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Gnarly
2175 posts
May 07, 2017
3:39 PM
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"Let's not keep the other thread open by proxy in this one guys."
That's clear enough--can we agree to disagree?
And BTW, I can personally vouch for the fact that the old plates were made by Suzuki--I have no idea who is making them now, but I am willing to bet they are Chinese.
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The Iceman
3107 posts
May 07, 2017
3:46 PM
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In response to Mr. Burkes personal attack on me...
Nate has already mildly chastised me for what he considers a small "poke" because of my opening line - "As usual, I disagree with Mr. Burke. (no surprise here)".
It was not my intent to begin a flame war. I thought I was being polite. I do apologize, Mr. Burke, if this is what set you off. My bad.
Forum Rule: CIVILITY. Civility is the governing virtue of this forum. Please contribute in a spirit of civility. Vigorous, passionate conversation is fine. Disagree emphatically, if you wish, with the opinions others express here. But do not flame, insult, or otherwise impugn the looks, parentage, intelligence, or talents of your fellow board members, and do not start threads that seek to encourage that sort of behavior. You are not required to like everybody here. But you are required to remain civil towards them if you wish to remain a member of this forum."
Allow me to point out one part - Vigorous, passionate conversation is fine. Disagree emphatically, if you wish, with the opinions others express here. (those not liking the difference of opinions - play nice in the sandbox, etc, should take note of this rule)
So, disagreement with other opinions expressed here is part of the forum rules, and, as a gentle reminder to Mr. Burke - personal attacks on this forum are (as I used to say when I lived in Germany) hier verboten.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 07, 2017 10:46 PM
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nacoran
9454 posts
May 07, 2017
5:07 PM
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Edit: We've resolved the issue off forum.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Last Edited by nacoran on May 07, 2017 9:31 PM
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Gnarly
2177 posts
May 07, 2017
5:37 PM
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Wow, disgruntled harmonica players, who knew such a thing existed.
I have discovered the secret of a happy existence, stop caring so much about stuff. We're all gonna die anyway.
And that is my happy thought for the day. Play the blues!
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Cotton
88 posts
May 07, 2017
6:05 PM
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Nate,
You are overthinking this. You made and continue to make good calls. Do not shortchange yourself. Thanks for keeping the playground noise down to a dull roar.
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