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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Why are Manji's so much cheaper now?
Why are Manji's so much cheaper now?
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dantana
1 post
Mar 31, 2017
1:16 PM
Greetings all,

New on the site although I've been reading posts here for some time.

Does anyone know why Manji's came down in price? Is this a reflection on quality?

I remember then they were $80. Now I can get them for $35 -$50.

?

Dan
the_happy_honker
261 posts
Mar 31, 2017
2:06 PM
When Hohner was making crap for harmonicas Suzuki and Seydel made large gains in market share by focusing on quality and innovation.

Now Hohner has stopped the bleeding, the Marine Band line is vastly improved and customers are buying Hohner again - so much so that Hohner feels they can raise prices with impunity. A Marine Band costs about 25% more today than 5 years ago.

I see Suzuki as going for more market share. The Manji is as good or better than the Crossover (see recent discussions), so why not attract people on price?

Or maybe Suzuki reed plates are now made cheap in China? IDK.
Moon Cat
665 posts
Mar 31, 2017
6:28 PM
The Happy Honker nailed it! I can assure ya'll Suzuki Manji's are as good or better than ever and YES now cheaper! Everything is still made in Japan with the best technology the harmonica world has ever seen for producing the most consistent and reliable quality available. -Jason Ricci
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www.mooncat.org
JustFuya
1054 posts
Apr 01, 2017
12:01 AM
I have no question about the superior manufacturing technology that goes into making a Suzuki reed plate. Side by side with a Hohner it's easy to see the difference without magnification. A closer look at the Suzuki reveals amazing accuracy in the individual parts and the assembly process. Automation does that. Eventually they will will produce models with gaps and chamfers to order. Punch a few buttons and, by golly, you got it with no additional charge. Free shipping.

Fewer hands will always equate to less expense in a free society. Eventually they will come up with an instrument that will save us the trouble of playing and even improvising.

I'm not recommending any brand of harp. I am just a regular guy who is feeling nostalgic about the hands-on craftsmanship that seems to have disappeared in the early 70s. I sit alone tonight because I murdered the squirrel who entered my house, uninvited, for the second time. Shoo became shoe and here I sit, hugging this computer machine instead of the warm body that lies 10 feet and one closed door away. I feel like a craftsman but without the pride or satisfaction of doing a job well. [For the record, all my shrieks were of manly timbre and spot on key.]
Littoral
1452 posts
Apr 01, 2017
3:57 AM
JustFuya, quite the aside that squirrel episode. We do have territory and it looks like you followed fair warning protocol.
I've been trying move to Manjis and the first stumble came yesterday with a new D. It was really tight compared with my special 20/blue moon acrylic comb. The Manji is tight and 20% less responsive. The 20 is butter. No work done on either harp. I got the Manji yesterday so I'll look at the reeds today. My real preference has been Crossovers. First Manji was an F. Also tight but a little better than this new D. Jury is out.
Littoral
1453 posts
Apr 01, 2017
3:57 AM
JustFuya, quite the aside that squirrel episode. We do have territory and it looks like you followed fair warning protocol.
I've been trying move to Manjis and the first stumble came yesterday with a new D. It was really tight compared with my special 20/blue moon acrylic comb. The Manji is tight and 20% less responsive. The 20 is butter. No work done on either harp. I got the Manji yesterday so I'll look at the reeds today. My real preference has been Crossovers. First Manji was an F. Also tight but a little better than this new D. Jury is out.
WinslowYerxa
1282 posts
Apr 01, 2017
8:51 AM
Suzuki may also be feeling price pressure from East Top, who are making good harps at low prices.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
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ScottK
62 posts
Apr 01, 2017
11:18 AM
The price is why I'm ordering a couple from Amazon. Ya, teachers love gift certificates from Amazon. Due for a Bb and prob get another C. Been playing MBs and I have 1 crossover. Switched over from Lee Oscars. Look forward to trying a Manji.
SuperBee
4604 posts
Apr 01, 2017
3:43 PM
They won't get my $ regardless of the price.
Moon Cat
667 posts
Apr 01, 2017
8:50 PM
Hi Littoral: May I add that any harmonica that comes off Tom Halchak's bench especially with a custom comb is going to play better than a stock harmonica. Tom does a once over on gapping and often much more even though that is not advertised or suspected for his comb upgrades. Even without his treatment adding a perfectly flat Blue Moon Comb will increase playability...
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www.mooncat.org
Littoral
1454 posts
Apr 02, 2017
7:04 AM
Mr Mooncat, yes, I just added the comb bought from Tom and it's pretty crazy how nice they are to play.
Coming back to the OP point on Manji prices, now you can get a Manji for essentially the same $ as an acrylic comb from Blue Moon. Freakin addiction...
JInx
1304 posts
Apr 02, 2017
10:12 AM
Because they are garbage
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Gnarly
2141 posts
Apr 02, 2017
10:52 PM
@ JInx, if you don't like your Manjis, trade them to me. I have a bunch of Special 20s I am happy to exchange with you, or others too.
florida-trader
1114 posts
Apr 03, 2017
4:16 AM
JustFuya I understand your sentiment about handmade craftmanship. Regardless of the technology used to manufacture a harp, there is still a place for old school craftsmanship. I do not pretendto speak for others who work on reed plates, as I do, but I look at reed plates as a foundation. They are a starting point. I realize that a lot of people play out of the box harps. For them, the quality of the harp from the factory is the most important thing because that is the final product that they are going to play. But for an increasing number of people, the harps they play are customized to some degree. That's where the old world skills come into play. The ability to take a stock harp and improve the way it sounds and plays is a very prominant part of the harp world today. I do a lot of work with pre-war Marine Bands and people often ask me why they are regarded so highly. There are a lot of possible reasons but one of the things I point to is in that era, Hohner had been making harmonicas for 50 or 60 years and they likely had 2nd and 3rd generation harmonica craftsmen building harps in their factory. But even if that is true, the guys building the harps didn't cut each reed by hand or stamp each reed plate by hand. There has always been some form of machinery or technology in play. The customizers of today are simply filling a roll that used to be found in the factory. That's the way I see it. And I do not think a machine is going to replace the artists either. (I know you were joking about that.)
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
 photo BMH Banner resized for email signature_zpseilpcgeo.jpg
dougharps
1388 posts
Apr 03, 2017
8:35 AM
Hohner jacked up prices recently, Suzuki not so much. I would check Rockin' Ron's for price comparisons. Reed plate prices are significant, too. If you shop Amazon, be aware that some Amazon bargain harps by Suzuki may not be covered by warranty. Here is info about this found on Harp-L:

>A MAJOR word of warning regarding "Best Deals Eva" on Amazon:
>
>Please note that "Best Deals Eva" is NOT an authorized Suzuki dealer. Any Suzuki instruments sold through "Best Deals Eva" DO NOT include a warranty of any kind. We cannot guarantee that the instruments are new or safe to play, and our factory and distributorship assume no responsibility for the condition of these instruments.
>
>Best Deals Eva is the online arm of a company called Marc's Closeout Stores in Ohio.
>
>Their business model involves buying out junk from companies that are moving or going out of business. The Suzuki harmonicas they have in stock were bought up when we moved to a new facility in 2011. This means that the instruments you buy though Best Deals Eva are most likely unclaimed repairs, used or defective instruments, or are cobbled together from various spare parts.
>
>Again, Suzuki USA DOES NOT honor any warranty on any instruments sold through this retailer, and strongly discourages all musicians from buying harmonicas through this dealer. Requests for warranty service and parts will be denied.
>
>Please avoid suggesting online that other musicians buy their instruments form this company, as this just confuses people, and seriously undermines the ability of Suzuki Music USA and their authorized dealers to provide quality instruments at an affordable price. BUYER BEWARE.
>
>Thank You,
>
>
>-Daron Stinton
>SUZUKI Music USA
>(800) 854-1594, ext. 44411


Gary Lehman, anagramatically known as "Gnarly Heman(n*)" is the Suzuki USA repair guy.

Gary, is the above noted information about not being covered still correct?

* corrected per Gary. Sorry that I didn't remember the correct spelling, and embarrassed that I failed in the anagram department.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Apr 03, 2017 10:04 AM
TBird
221 posts
Apr 03, 2017
9:23 AM
I THINK I like Manji's. At least I really WANT to like them. The price seems great for what seems to be a high quality instrument, BUT the one Manji that I have purchased so far came pretty significantly out of tune. I am hoping to give it another try when I've got the money, but admittedly, I'm a little nervous about what I might get.

T.Bird
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Be humble for you are made of earth.
Be noble for you are made of stars.
WinslowYerxa
1284 posts
Apr 03, 2017
9:29 AM
I have a number of Manjis, mostly in low keys (price was a factor in comparison with Thunderbirds), but the D-harp I have is tight and responsive. It's got a more resistant feel to it than my Marine Band Deluxe in D, and that characteristic seems to be consistent in the Manji line. They're fully responsive, but playing them is a different feel from the easier feel of the Marine Band series.

Im curious about Jinx's and SuperBee's unexplained statements.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
Gnarly
2142 posts
Apr 03, 2017
10:00 AM
Hello Doug, and all,
The quoted information is still the case--products purchased from companies other than the ones that we (Suzuki US) sell to, in other words, harps bought from companies that don't buy from us, are not covered by our warranty.
Our warranty is one year, and includes reed failure. It also includes an opportunity to speak with a Real Live Harmonica Player Tuesday thru Thursday 8-5 West Coast Time by calling 800-854-1594. That's me, Gary Lehmann (please note, you can't build Gnarly He Man without two "n"s), and I am more than happy to help. Forgive me if I shake you down for warranty verification before I do a lot of counseling (I think most of the folks on this list already know much of what I do).
I wasn't aware that the price of Manji harps had gone down domestically, perhaps it's those grey market ones that the OP is referring to.
I still recommend Ron for all things harmonica, although Danny G at New Harmonica is a good call if you are a chromatic player, since he is too. He stocks much of the same stuff at just about the same prices, and is just as nice a guy as Ron.
Once again, if you don't like your Manji, I know someone who will trade you for them!
dougharps
1390 posts
Apr 03, 2017
10:13 AM
I really liked Moon Cat's take in a previous thread about the differences in a Manji and the Hohners:

"The comb is a composite plastic that looks, feels and vibrates similar to wood. Edges are rounded a bit more than a Marine Band but not much. Reeds are thicker and stronger and have a more robust and fuller sound but are thus harder to bend and not as easy to play (Like 9's VS. 12's for guitar stings). All reedslots are cut by lasers which means there are no blades to become dull making slots bigger as the blades wear, so quality control with Suzuki is more consistent than any other brand. In the end you will have to spend some time on the harp before you fall in love with it. It wasn't an easy switch for me coming from Honers but I would never go back now."

My experience is very similar. I find that I need a slightly different attack and bending technique in bending the 2 and 3 draws to a desired pitch. I still use customized Marine Bands and Special 20s, and have to adjust when switching. With regard to being properly tuned, I have found no problems, though they DO use a different compromise tuning than the Hohners.

I find that Seydels with steel reeds need a slightly different approach than Special 20s, too.
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Doug S.
florida-trader
1117 posts
Apr 03, 2017
11:09 AM
dougharps - Um er, I have to correct something you said. I know you were quoting the Moon Cat and it is easy to assume that he is right about everything related to the harmonica, and the Manji in particular. But his statement that the slots on the Manji reed plates are laser cut is incorrect. I saw the post you are quoting and had a long conversation with Jason about it. He urged me to post a correction but that particular thread had already run its course so I didn’t want to revive it. But now I see that information being quoted and unfortunately this is how rumors or Urban Legends or misconceptions in general get started.

The slots in Manji reed plates are not cut by laser. Trust me when I tell your this. Manufacturing reed plates is kind of the Star Trek Final Frontier for those of us who make components and dream of one day being able to make everything that goes into a harp – combs, covers and reed plates. So I have explored and examined every technology available to us at this point to figure out how to make reed plates. To be sure, there are lots of ways to cut metal but the fatal flaw or the limiting step with all the technology aside from stamping is the inside right angle.

The reed slots on a harmonica have perfectly square inside 90 degree right angles. You can cut an inside right angle with a stamp, or more precisely, fine metal blanking, but you can’t do it with a laser or a water jet or Wire EDM or CNC milling. That’s because the cutting tool in all those cases is round. A laser is a beam of light that is round. A water jet is a stream of water that is round. The wire on Wire EDM is round. An end mill used in CMC machining is round. Think about a drill bit. It is round, therefore it has a radius. Consequently it is impossible to cut an inside corner that is perfectly square. The corner will have a radius that is equal to the radius of the cutting tool. You can use a small end mill to get a smaller radius with CNC Machining, but there will still be a radius.

The only company to produce their own reed plates, aside from the major manufacturers and the recent Chinese entries into the market, was the ill-fated Harrison Harmonicas. The reed slots on the B-Radical were cut using Wire EDM. Aside from leaving a somewhat jagged edge, they also have radiused inside corners. That’s why, if you ever have a chance to see a B-Radical up close, you will notice than the tips of the reeds are slightly dog-eared to provide clearance for the corner of the tips of the reeds.

Manji reed plates have perfectly square inside right angle corners on the reed slots. More than likely they are made via Fine Metal Blanking, which is a process where the metal is cut from both directions simultaneously. The advantage of Fine Metal Blanking over Stamping is that there no burrs or chads. The part that comes off the machine is 100% finished – it doesn’t’ have to be cleaned up.

That said, the spot-welded reeds on a Manji are laser aligned in the slots to ensure that they are centered and the reeds are laser tuned. If you look at a Manji reed plate you will notice that there are parallel scoring lines on the tips of the reeds. These are laser tuning marks. It seems that Suzuki intentionally makes their reeds a little heavy at the tip and then tunes them up to pitch by laser etching material off the tip of the reeds. I have never seen the laser tuning marks at the base a reed to flatten it. So, there is laser technology used to manufacture Manji reed plates. But, the slots are not cut by laser. The laser is used to align and tune the reeds.

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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
 photo BMH Banner resized for email signature_zpseilpcgeo.jpg

Last Edited by florida-trader on Apr 03, 2017 11:12 AM
JustFuya
1055 posts
Apr 03, 2017
11:35 AM
@Tom
In my experience, going back to the 60s w/ WWII era mechanical equipment, old school craftsman were responsible for the output AND maintenance of their machinery. They inspected them, greased them, set drip oilers, etc before the shift started. Ears were as important as hands and eyes. Blindfolded, they could tell if a tool needed sharpening or if a bearing was going out.

Don't get me wrong. I love hydraulics, servos and numerical control but these days it takes much less talent on the floor to run a machine. Engineers and programmers do most of the work. They can run machinery all night long in an empty shop. If there is a problem the machine will automatically stop and call you at home with an error code. Pretty cool but at this point it can't replace human touch.

The Japanese are very good at automation but you are certainly right ... they have not yet come close to creating an OOTB instrument to rival those that are handled by people like yourself, Joe Spiers and many talented and/or determined DIYers.

It's been a while since I tore into a OOTB Manji and I'm sure they are constantly improving their process. Improvement also includes cost cutting and, as I said earlier, hands don't come cheap in free society. If they can save 10 cents per unit by eliminating an operation, ie straightening a warped plate, they will do it. This is especially so if they are competing with slave labor.

I'm guessing Hohner is playing catch-up in technology and we are all feeling their pain.

I have yet to see an Easttop but owning one is on my list. It's a good way to see what they are producing. More importantly, it's an inexpensive way to experience one of Brendan Power's many innovations.

@Gnarly
Does your offer to Jinx extend to me.
dougharps
1391 posts
Apr 03, 2017
2:24 PM
@Tom
No problem, Tom! I don't know anything about Suzuki slot cutting except from Moon Cat's post and now yours.

I posted that whole section from Moon Cat, but the part that I liked relative to how they play was, "Like 9's VS. 12's for guitar strings." I think it is a good parallel.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Apr 03, 2017 2:25 PM
SuperBee
4608 posts
Apr 03, 2017
3:36 PM
I don't personally own any manji anymore. I gave away the one I had.
It was ok but nothing special and quite expensive.
I do maintain some for a couple of clients.
I haven't detected any aspect of a manji which would compel me to buy anymore.
I don't like the comb. It has a nasty feel on the tongue, which reminds me of a pear wood comb which has lost its' lacquer.
The covers look nice but they are weak like a marine band that's had the covers opened.
The reeds need just as much work as any other harp and they are not nice to work with
The tuning is weird
Spare reeds are only available in complete reedplates and they are a bit of a pill to repair anyway.
I have over 80 personal diatonic harps, most of which I do like, and I repair those when required (cost around $2 max) so I really don't care how cheap manji is, I don't anticipate buying any.
I do think they use nice hardware.
Moon Cat
669 posts
Apr 03, 2017
3:50 PM
I am frequently wrong about everything.
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www.mooncat.org
Rontana
391 posts
Apr 03, 2017
3:55 PM
"I am frequently wrong about everything."

Okay . . . now that made me seriously laugh out loud. Might make a good t-shirt or tattoo . . . so long as a couple of words are misspelled.
Gnarly
2143 posts
Apr 03, 2017
9:51 PM
@JustFuya
Yes, I am trading SP20s (and services) for Manjis, the harmonica mike I bought seems to work best with those harmonicas.
Kind of a drag for me, I use a lot of specialty tuned harps, but I am willing to do the work--but I have a whole lot of SP20s! Not so many Manjis . . .
So absolutely, let me know if you want to trade--I think the Manji is a good harp, I also believe a Special 20 can be made very serviceable--
Killa_Hertz
2287 posts
Apr 04, 2017
2:47 PM
I just picked up my manjis again after not playing them for a while.

They really are a solid harp. Very well made. I really like em and I like the way they play. I just don't love em.

All my manjis are custom however. I did reed work to all of them. (Shaped and gapped. No embossing. ) And replaced all the combs with various blue moon combs. Hogany, Corian, and one aluminum (on my low f).

I tend to agree with Super Bee on this one. I don't like the tuning or the comb. But I do really like the heavy reed feel. I've already changed the combs ... so Ive been wanting to retune one to Just and see how it sounds.

I don't really find cost to be the most important factor. I would much rather be fully content with the instrument that I'm playing, rather than play an instrument I don't like to save a few bucks. Maybe that's what hohner was banking on when raising their prices to these crazy levels. Too bad there are better harps out there.

I'm partial to Seydels. I think Seydel is the sweet spot between the lighter playing hohner and the heavier playing manji. I've really gotten used to them and I'm finding it hard to play anything else.

Back to the issue of cost. Most people's response when you bring up Seydel is .. "There too expensive." Well an 1847 classic is now the same price as a crossover. And the 1847 is a far superior harp imo. After going back to Hohners, they feel like small little toy harps.

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 04, 2017 2:58 PM
Racquetstringer
5 posts
Apr 04, 2017
3:20 PM
Hey Killa,

Do you want to sell your Manji combs. I can use them. I have extra plates and covers that will fit them.

I do my own reed work and tuning and can make up some fill ins.

I agree with you on the Seydels. I play Classics the most, with my two Danneckers right up there.

I even like tuning stainless reeds.
Goldbrick
1787 posts
Apr 04, 2017
3:56 PM
Its interesting how the comb was supposed to be a big breakthru and a lotta guys dont like it

I have a manji - I wouldnt buy another feels stiff and dull

I much prefer the Hammonds- i love those
Moon Cat
670 posts
Apr 04, 2017
5:21 PM
Raquetstringer I got some combs for you bra. jasonricci1@gmail.com
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www.mooncat.org
zx679
12 posts
Apr 04, 2017
8:33 PM
The price (and the marketing to be honest) are what persuaded me to try Manjis. I've got a Bb and a D. I've got a love/hate relationship with them.

First the love part:
They require more air pressure than the hohners. You've got to really muscle them around and when you do they sound great. I've got twelve harps (Hohners and Seydels too) and nearly all of them have some dental wax at the base of one or more reeds (on 4,5, and 6) to prevent squealing on overblows; all of them except the Manjis and the Crossover. For me those two models overblew the best out of the box by quite a margin. However the Manjis are $55 CAD and the Crossovers are $112 CAD.

Now the hate:
Tongue blocking is a chore on the Manjis. I've recently gotten into Little Walter and Sonny Boy Williamson via Rythm Slim's youtube channel. On my 1896s it's given me an appreciation for a light touch with the tongue when trying to emulate those masters. The light touch is problematic on the Manjis (but not impossible) because of the greater air pressure that's required. The awesome tone you get on the Manjis when lip pursing gets a bit thin when you tongue block lightly as you would on a Marine Band. The 3-draw 1/2 bend in particular. When you deepen your embouchure to get better tone while tongue blocking you get lots of friction from the cover plates and reed plate edges when doing fast runs up and down the harp.

I fully understand that my skill level is a big factor but I know others have noticed a pressure/springiness difference as well. I'd like them to be THE harp I play because of the price, the tone and the responsiveness when lip pursing but boy to they fight me when I tongue block. I haven't given up yet though.

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something something harmonicas...

Last Edited by zx679 on Apr 04, 2017 8:36 PM
Rontana
394 posts
Apr 05, 2017
5:02 AM
Hohner prices have become idiotic over the past few years. I love my MBs, but new ones have pretty much exceeded my budget (unless I can find open-box/damaged package deals)

I've not had good luck with Manjis, but may have to try an Easttop one of these days.
Killa_Hertz
2288 posts
Apr 05, 2017
6:01 AM
Captcha!!!!!!! 20 minutes worth of typing on my phone that I'll never get back.


Anyways, the short version.

Goldbrick.
My beef with the manji comb is that it dismantled sit flush up front. I hate that.

Zx679
I noticed recently that my lips stick to the manji covers. My mouth has been getting really dry while playing them too, for some reason. But when I switch right back to the Seydel, no stickycovers ... no dry mouth. Weird.

As far as the extra air involved. That used to mess with me aswell. However if you learn to get your air pressure from the diaphragm this will greatly improve your playing, your tone, and your issue with required air pressure.

Seydels take a bit more air aswell. With Seydels I think it's a mix of ... the nice stiffness of the reeds (which some may not like at first, but I actually love it now. ), the tuning, and the stainless reeds. There is a certain warm mellow tone that the Seydels get that I Just absolutely Love.



Moon cat

I know you have said that you retune some of your manjis. What tunings do you use? And for what purpose(s)?

Most of what you play is not straight ahead blues. (Obviously) So I'm thinking the stock tuning likely fits your melodic scale based style. Better than it would got a Chicago blues style.

Do you tune your harps differently when playing blues? Did you tune then differently for the dirty memory album?
zx679
13 posts
Apr 05, 2017
9:47 AM
@Killa_Hertz
Thanks for the advice. I'll try use my diaphragm more. I wonder if it's the cover plate shape of the Manjis that encourage dry mouth. I've also found that the Seydels require more air as well but less pressure than the Manjis (if that makes any sense).

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something something harmonicas...
Killa_Hertz
2290 posts
Apr 05, 2017
11:37 AM
That makes perfect sense. I find the Seydel feel to be somewhere in between the Hohner and Manji feel.

I think it's the finish on the plates that cause my lips to stick. When my mouth starts to get a little dry, the Seydels covers still allow my lips to slide. Whereas the manji,they will grab.

I'm just splitting hairs. If I were forced to play any of the top model harmonicas, I would be fine with it. Marine bands, Seydels, manjis, etc.

But we have So many choices. We have the luxury of being picky. 8^)
Moon Cat
671 posts
Apr 05, 2017
11:15 PM
Hey Killa Hurtz I don't use alternate tunings but sometimes I just tune certain notes a few cents sharp mainly 5 and 9 draw to be more in tune while playing unison lines or I'll use Olives (equal temperment) for recordings and 12th position stuff..Also theres some wiggle room with how/where you want your reedplate to comb flushness...
www.mooncat.org
Killa_Hertz
2291 posts
Apr 06, 2017
5:43 AM
Ahh. Gotcha. I've heard you say that you tuned them and just assumed it was a major tuning change.

I've tried moving the comb flush by taking the front Center screw out. But it seems like it changes the way it plays because the reeds are too close to the back of the comb??? Idk. Maybe it's all in my head.


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