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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > TENNESSEE WHISKEY major pentatonic
TENNESSEE WHISKEY major pentatonic
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hvyj
3228 posts
Feb 21, 2017
3:29 PM
https://youtu.be/4zAThXFOy2c

For anyone interested in working on playing major pentatonic, try playing along with this tune. It lays out perfectly using the major pentatonic scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zAThXFOy2c&feature=share

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 21, 2017 3:33 PM
indigo
323 posts
Feb 22, 2017
12:07 AM

Nice

Last Edited by indigo on Feb 22, 2017 12:08 AM
timeistight
2081 posts
Feb 22, 2017
1:19 AM
Sounds familiar.

hvyj
3230 posts
Feb 22, 2017
6:30 AM
Sure does. I was at a jam on Sunday and we started to vamp on this. I thought we were going to play I'D RATHER GO BLIND, but then someone started singing about Tennessee Whiskey. I guess if you drink enough of it it'll make you go blind.

Even some experienced musicians mistakenly think this tune is
minor, but it's not. It has a sorta minor feel/sound because it's one chord two chord progression. The two chord is minor, but the notes of the two chord are diatonic to the major key of the song (the one chord). So you use the major scale of the key the song is in. This may be TMI...you don't need to understand this to play the song. Just use the major pentatonic scale and it'll work.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 22, 2017 6:50 AM
timeistight
2082 posts
Feb 22, 2017
8:10 AM
The A major pentatonic sort-of works over both chords, but I don't think it's the best choice because it's missing a crucial note (D) in the B minor chord. It's much cooler to play the A major pentatonic scale over the A major chord and the B minor pentatonic scale over the B minor chord.
hvyj
3231 posts
Feb 22, 2017
9:04 AM
Yeah, which is why I almost always wind up playing the 4th (D) of the key (A) very freely when I am playing major pentatonic even though it's not in the major pentatonic scale. It is an important chord tone in a I-IV-V progression as well as this I-ii progression.

Since I don't OB, the major pentatonic scale in the key of B is not available to me on a Richter tuned diatonic harp in the key of D. So, I'd need to use two harmonicas if I wanted to play parallel major pentatonic scales over each chord. Personally, I don't find this necessary since the note you are talking about (D, the flat third of the B chord) is available to me as 4 blow and can be added freely without my resorting to using a second harp.

Whatever scale I'm using, I almost always wind up playing some chord tones that are not scale tones. It's more musical and, after all, one does not want to be totally scale bound or you sound like you are playing exercises rather than music.

Btw, in my experience, the flat 5th (another non-scale tone) usually sounds ok when working off the major pentatonic scale if you don't over do it. But most of the time the flat (dominant) 7th is an avoid note when working off the major pentatonic. These are just little rules of thumb I follow in trying to determine what notes are appropriate in order to sound right, so I am generalizing.

As sort of a philosophical matter, I see nothing wrong with sometimes compromising what may be musically optimum by varying from that when desirable in order to play what sounds good being played on a harmonica, considering the limitations on what notes we have available. Sometimes when I listen to skilled players play certain complex material note-for-note it can come out sounding forced or artificial (look ma, no hands) to my ear. IMHO, simplifying and using occasional alternative note choices (like, for example, playing the third of chord tone when the root is unavailable or technically difficult to intonate)
can sometimes generate a more aesthetic result. But that's just my take on it. YMMV.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 22, 2017 9:37 AM
timeistight
2083 posts
Feb 22, 2017
9:32 AM
"Since I don't OB, the major pentatonic scale in the key of B is not available to me on a Richter tuned diatonic harp in the key of D."

I said to play the B minor pentatonic over the B minor chord. The B major pentatonic would clash with that chord.

In practical terms, you could play this on an A harp thinking first position over the A major chord and third position over the B minor chord. Other choices are an E harp, playing twelfth position over the A major chord and second position minor over the B minor chord, or a D harp playing second and fourth positions.
hvyj
3232 posts
Feb 22, 2017
9:45 AM
Well, I'm sure there's more than one way to skin this cat, but I am getting by pretty well using major penatonic in A on a D harp (second position) throwing in free use of the (non scale tone) blow 4. It works decently in relation to what the rest of the band is doing. Using an A harp is a pretty interesting idea, though.

I think what I have been doing by using blow 4 is essentially playing a D harp in second and fourth positions, even though I wasn't actually thinking about it that way.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 22, 2017 10:37 AM
1847
4005 posts
Feb 22, 2017
12:58 PM
it would be great if you were to record an example and post it

they say a picture is worth a thousand words. a recording is even better.

pretty simple these days with a smart phone.
tomaxe
86 posts
Feb 23, 2017
6:57 AM
Interesting discussion, and yes, I would like to hear examples too. This really highlights how you should be thinking as a MUSICIAN, not just a "harp player".
My music theory is not strong, but the approach on this song would strongly depend on what the rest of the band is doing, right?—are the instrumentals really leaning on that Bm chord, how strong are the vocals through that chord, etc. Is it a large band? Are you a soloist and/or comping on the tune?
My personal default settings for a tune like this are to go gospel-tinged...I'm thinking organ-like tones, so I would first go to an A harp and play lots of octaves and chord type stuff through the A and Bm. So "first and third" position. I would use this approach with a small combo too so my chords are not clashing. But you could really wail a solo on a D harp just playing the blues scale and/or play interesting single note runs with a larger band that is playing a big sound/solid through the changes and play that blow 4 or blow 1 and 4, like the OP said. Cool.
1847
4006 posts
Feb 23, 2017
9:48 AM
tomaxe, great response.
far to often harp players are totally oblivious to the chords being played .
it seems like they think it does not even matter. this is a good subject that heavy j brought up.
unfortunately it most likely will fall on deaf ears. the people that can learn the most from
this will not pay one ounce of attention.

Last Edited by 1847 on Feb 23, 2017 9:48 AM
hvyj
3234 posts
Feb 23, 2017
8:40 PM
@tomaxe: blues scale won't work well on this tune. It will make you sound like the stereotypical harp player who trys to force fit blues licks over everything and it will not fit musically with what the rest of the band is playing. Thinking gospel ain't a bad way to approach it. But gospel is pretty far removed from blues scale. It's an excellent tune to play along with to work on learning to solo/fill in major pentatonic without resort to using blues scale stuff. It's a different aesthetic. And it reqires some musical discipline.

It's also an important capability to develop and is a measure of musical competence. I once had a full time musician I used to gig with compliment me by saying "you're not like the rest of these harp players--you know how to play major." Does that make me a great player? Fuck no. It probably just means that the bar isn't set very high. It also means that besides knowing HOW to play major, I was able to figure out WHEN to play major, all of which ain't very difficult. But however high or low that bar is set, not a whole lot of harp players are clearing it. FWIW.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 23, 2017 9:09 PM
tomaxe
87 posts
Feb 24, 2017
5:29 AM
@hvyi:"blues scale won't work well on this tune"
Yeah definitely not throughout. That would be cheesy. But on a solo part you could definitely play draw 3 half step in there and some other blues licks. After all, both Etta James and Stapleton sing "bluesy" to my ears....flatting and bending notes into pitch. Using blow 4 on a D harp over the Bm constantly would sound bad too, but very cool occasionally. Especially in a full band that are all hitting Bm. That was my point.
Mickey Raphael is a player who to my ears uses the major and minor pentatonic (blues scales) on country tunes often inside the same song—like a call and response— and it sounds pretty good. Actually, very good! :-)
Again, my theory is weak and I'm trying to get better, so I find discussions like this helpful. I could be way off base. I think 1847 understood the basic idea of my post....think about chord changes and style, along with what the rest of the band is doing. That is what I really got out of your post, Hvyi. I would NOT be blowing Jimmy Reed first position licks on this if I was using an A harp.
Gospel can't vary too much from blues in its overall feel and style. Ray Charles seemed to understand that pretty well.
I'll bow out now before the weakness of my retention of theory gets exposed too much more! :-)
hvyj
3235 posts
Feb 24, 2017
8:35 AM
Well, I don't want to appear to be stifling creativity or being unduly critical or disrespectful, but sometimes ( if not most of the time ) we sound better if what we play fits the idioms.

Gospel and most Ray Charles have more commonality with R&B than blues. Yeah, soulful expressions of emotion are common to all 3 situations. But if you are going to blow blues over most gospel and R&B it is going to sound like shit. Some R&B works with blues scale but a whole lot of it does not. Not long ago I did a sideman gig with an all black band (I'm white) playing soul music and R&B all night long to an all black audience, so I have some practical perspective on what works and what doesn't sound right for those idioms.

Frankly, gospel and R&B have more musical commonality with COUNTRY than with blues. The bend you use most to play in these styles is the full step draw bend on the 3 hole which generates the major second. This is a major pentatonic scale tone. Now, if you add the minor third to the major pentatonic scale you get what some people call the major blues scale and others call the country scale. But you've got to be careful how you use it. The sterotypical harmonica player looks for excuses/opportunities to wail on bends. How about learning to bend to pitch and expressing emotion with note movement. In this regard, what you DON'T play can have more powerful musical and emotional impact than what you do play.

To my sensibilities, I'D RATHER GO BLIND is R&B, not blues although it's widely referred to as a blues tune. Many blues players struggle with R&B because their tried and true blues licks don't work and they are confused about what else to do. My suggestion is employ discipline and practice just using major pentatonic for an excercise. As you do, DON'T wail on bends. Restrict yourself to expressing emotion through note movement and placement. This is not all that difficult, but it can take quite a while to become comfortable with it. But worth the effort IMHO.

Part of the problem is that it is characteristic of the blues idiom to utilize the blues scale of the key you are in over all the changes. That's why some musicians will say that the blues has no harmony which isn't exactly true.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 24, 2017 8:50 AM
barbequebob
3392 posts
Feb 24, 2017
9:21 AM
To add on to HvyJ's point, many R&B tunes, much like doowop, often use major 7ths as well as 6th's in there as well as the 6 chord of the scale, like for instance, in the key of C, the 6 chord is Am and often harp players are too lazy to learn theory and too often spend too much time and money on gear rather than learning theory and time and these same fools wonder why they constantly get disrespected all the damned time. Trying to use a blues scale over everything regardless if it's a blues or not is basically nothing more than just totally BS'ing your way through it and you usually wind up sounding completely out of your element. Musical discipline is extremely important and when I've played in a number of different bands over the years, including a band where I had to being a part of a 5 piece horn section, there were plenty of times where I had to be far more disciplined and learn these things. Sometimes a country tuned harp can help but so can learning other positions and when playing those horn lines, it's not just knowing the correct notes to play, because it also involves getting the time and the rhythm of the line correct along with the dynamics of the line as well and too often, this is the kind of stuff you NEVER learn in the vast majority of open jams.

Every harp player that's too damned lazy to get their theory and time straight do nothing except constantly shoot themselves in the foot 24/7/365 and too many of them are just too hard headed to understand this and just waste too much damned time and money on gear and solos and little else beyond that, things that would make them actual better musicians and not just another clueless jam hack.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
timeistight
2084 posts
Feb 24, 2017
9:42 AM
"Tennessee Whiskey" has been around for a long time: David Allan Coe and George Jones both recorded it in the early '80s (Jones got the hit). Here they both are singing it at Farm Aid:



Stapleton's innovation was to to slow it down and put it to a soulful 6/8 feel.

Last Edited by timeistight on Feb 24, 2017 9:44 AM
dougharps
1367 posts
Feb 24, 2017
12:23 PM
A D harp works fine for comping and improvising on the song "Tennessee Whisky" found at the top.

Just avoid the notes that don't fit!
----------

Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 24, 2017 12:24 PM
hvyj
3236 posts
Feb 24, 2017
12:56 PM
Exactly! In many situations that's an effective strategy. For example, on tunes with a major 7th, unless you absolutely need that note for the melody, you don't need to use a country tuned harp or resort to 1st or 12th position. Just play major pentatonic in second position and it sounds just fine more often than not. Just be sure avoid draw 5 and draw 9.

Something else to be cognizant of: Joe Filisko (and others) advocate opening up your mouth to get some of the adjacent hole to fatten your sound. This is, of course, useful in the right context. But, in many situations, it just makes you sound sloppy. There's no right or wrong to this stuff, but this sort of imprecision is one of the things some harp players think sounds cool which may not be as well appreciated by other musicians. So, put this in the category of just because you can do it doesn't always mean you should.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 24, 2017 1:19 PM


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