I'm looking to get two new harps, a Bb and an F. As the F is quite high pitched, I wondered if anyone had suggestions for prefered harps. I'm open to any suggestion but my first thought was GM,Olive or Session Steel.
I find I use my Low F much more often than my regular F. I just have a Big River in F (Valved, and PowerDraw tuned). For a Low F I have my PowerDraw brand harp, a Seydel Session Standard, tuned the same way.
I am STRONGLY considering ordering one of Brendan Power's Lucky 13 harps in F, as that would cover both the low and high octaves.
My main Bb has been a Special 20 for a while now... not sure why I settled on that one. I plan on demoting that one to back-up once I get a Seydel Session Steel or 1847.
I love Hammonds. But l like Olives almost as well if I replace the stock comb with a BMH aluminum comb. Hammonds are short slot. Olives are long slot.
Recently got some 1847 Nobles. I had them tuned to ET and put full length covers on them. Wow! These are really nice harps, but I am partial to aluminum combs anyway.
I got a suggestion from ..someone.. a few years back to try a Hammond ProMaster in F, and it is a great harp. I do find I use Low F more often though. I like having both but, If I was limited to one, the low F seems more useful.
For the f harp I just use a marine band. I like the f being high I have a low F and seldom if ever use it. For songs like Orange Blossom Special I think some use a special 20...seems a good a choice as any. kind of depends what kind of music you're hoping to play with it...good luck
I use the Seydel 1847 Silver. I really like it (tone, response and ergonomics) but struggle to blow bend on the 10 hole. All the other blow bends are fine. It's probably just a lack of skill on my part though.
There are two F harps in my kit, high and low, and both are SP20s with TurboLids. The thing I like about the Hammond is that the tone is darker, and very stable. F is a good choice for that model.
Give it a little break in time--Higher pitched harps need a longer break in time--especially at the high end-
-zx6709-- I have had harps, especially "F" set up mediocre or poorly on the high end--I couldn't get the 10 bend until I gapped it better---very small short reeds-- I've had it on a couple harps like that -
hvyj - aluminum comb on a diatonic? Radical if you ask me. I'd expect aluminum combs on a chromatic. Is it a brighter sound, or just a preference? I can see there is a difference in weight. Does the difference in weight alter in effects. I can just imagine a case of them. A good workout if you ask me.
Last Edited by hot4blues on Jan 31, 2017 7:10 PM
I've got Bb in a Hohner SP 20 with a Blue Moon comb and in a Suzuki Hammond. My favorite is the Hammond ( actually my favorite feel of all my harps)
I've got an F in Seydel Session Steel ( love it) and a Low F in an Olive ( not my favorite), but my current favorite F harp is the Lucky 13 by Easttop. Often when jamming and I'm playing second position on an F harp, I'll find a Low F is called for or vice versa. With the Lucky 13 I've got the full range necessary to complement the piece. It's such a great harp
Well, I like the feel and response of an aluminum comb assuming the comb is flat. Meisterklasse MS combs and Suzuki Promaster combs are NOT consistently flat. Hammond combs are very good and Noble combs are excellent. Current production Blue Moon aluminum combs are also very good. Yes, they are a little brighter and heavier but not as bright or as heavy as brass combs. However, Hammonds have a dark tone which I attribute to the painted covers. Try powder coated covers from Blue Moon and hear how they affect tone.
I believe it is the DENSITY of the comb material that improves response (assuming the comb is flat) and may also affect brightness. Personally, I find brass combs too bright sounding and uncomfortably heavy. But the consistency and crispness of response I get from aluminum combs is very much to my liking and I also like the feel which I guess is the same as responsiveness.
Most stock combs on OOB harps are NOT flat so I almost always replace them (exceptions: Hammond, Firebreath and Noble combs are ok in my experience).
I don't know if my preference is radical or not. As far as weight is concerned, I like the added heft from aluminum combs.
I recently replaced the stock combs on my set of Olives with black anodized aluminum conbs from Blue Moon and they sound GREAT. Much better than the stock combs.
You know, I also like Sjoeberg combs. They are made from Dymonwood which is a composite more like wood, but they are super responsive and sound great. I usually order them .25" (6.35mm) thick. Although a thinner comb gives you faster response I think the thicker comb provides better resonance.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 31, 2017 8:05 PM
Hey Gerry, I guess you mean you are thinking the F harp is a little shrill and you might want to temper that? I know what people mean about the Hammond. It will take the edge off. Personally I don't like the effect. It sounds dull to me. You might feel differently. If you play amplified it probably won't make any difference, or at least you can set your gear to make more difference. I play an F harp enough that I carry a backup in my stage kit and 1 in my 'acoustic' kit. For me there's nothing better than a marine band or sp20 for playing music, although a promaster fitted with a suitable hook and a wire leader makes a better lure for mackerel ( seydel Sessions are too poorly made to withstand this kind of duty in my experience).
While a lowF can seem an attractive idea, my feeling is that some songs just call for the standard F. I guess that's just my conditioning.
Gerry, it sounds like you want a standard F vs a low F.
If i was in your boots, I would seriously consider a Lucky 13 in F. I an MBD/Thunderbird player but on a rare occasion I will go outside the box for a minor key or alternate tuned harp. I bought a Lucky 13 in A and after gapping it, it is a useful harp. In retrospect, I wish I had gotten an F.
For a long time I never carried a Low F. I use regular F as a matter of routine and, like SuperBee, I find it to be the right harp for a lot on f tunes in C. To a certain extent you can moderate shrillness with technique. I think it's more demanding to get good tone and adequate cut from a Low F.
Now, I use an F harp in fifth position to play A minor quite a bit. I like using a low F harp for that. Also, where a tune modulates from C to D (like "My Girl" for example) I'll use Low F because the difference in timbre between a G harp and a regular F is pretty extreme.
Having used Low F routinely for A minor for a while, I've developed enough of a comfort level with it that I willl use it occasionally for some tunes in C. Sometimes that low timbre fits the tune better.
I only play electric, so I had to strengthen my breath technique to get adequate cut from a Low F. Not a problem for me now, but it used to be. And as much as I love Hammonds I also agree with SuperBee that Hammonds may not be optimum for acoustic gigs. Before I started playing customs, my gigging set was Hammmonds.
My Low F Olive with an aluminum comb (and sanded reed plates) sounds a little richer than my Low F Hammond. I think it's because of the long slot reeds.
A thicker comb on a regular F deepens the resonance a little bit.
Thanks for the replies. I think it's a regular F I need not the Low F. I've not much experience at the flabby end of the spectrum. Does the long/short slot have any bearing with regard to the Keys playability? My GM is the only harp I can get the ½ step 10 blow bend on? My only real requirement is non vented. Ideally a plastic comb but it's not a deal breaker.
IIn my opinion, comb material and thickness makes little to no difference on the "sound" of the harmonica—"richness" or "brightness", "faster", "resonance" or whatever. That's all in the player's mind, I believe. I'm just coming to realize that flatness of the comb is paramount, and the easiest thing to fix on an out of the box harmonica—with the biggest payoff...and that's why all the wonderful custom comb makers out there are such a godsend. They provide a valuable and amazing service. But the material that the comb is made out of, it's weight, etc., are strictly a personal preference. Don't get me wrong, personal preference is what makes the player perform better. So whatever floats your boat. But I don't think there is any real science behind it. To my ears, the cover plates(material, style and shape) and the tuning/temperament of the harmonica have more to do with the sound than anything else. By a mile. I can't even hear the difference between stainless steel and bronze reeds with everything else equal. I can "feel" the difference when I play, in terms of how the reed responds physically to my breath, but I really can't hear it.
For lower pitched harps, give me long slot reeds any day of the week because in the bottom end of the spectrum, bending and even overblowing is easier and more accurate (tho personal technique is still a big time bottom line difference in the end) and the short slot reeds in the low end tends to make the response kinda shrill at times, which was a major problem with Hohners made from 1981-1995, their lousy quality years when they used short slot reeds, plus wide reed slot tolerances and combs not porperly sanded flat.
The only two combs that made a difference to my ears were both metal, one was the now no longer made titanium combs made by Mark Lavoie for the MS series which were really well made and evenly balanced but the chrome plated brass combs I didn't much care for because they tended to over emphasized the highs too much for my ears. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@tomaxe: when we are playing harp, part of what we "hear" is transmitted through vibrations of the bones in our head. So we may think we hear something that is not something the audience or anyone else can hear. So, there may be legitimate debate over what different components affect the "sound" of a harp. But, responsiveness is different. Maybe how different components "feel" is subjective but if some component feels different to the player, it is bound to affect performance for better or worse. There's historically been quite a bit of debate over this stuff on Harp-l.
But, why do you suppose Seydel started using thicker combs on Low tuned 1847 Nobles?
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 01, 2017 2:06 PM
I no longer use a regular tuned (F) harmonica, only Low Tuned :) My favorite low tuned (F) harps are the old Special 20s...Hohner Rocket...Manji and Delta Frost...
I have one each of the older Special 20 low tuned harps Low (F)..Low (E) Low (D)... Low E Flat, they still play like a dream :) I love low tuned harps almost more than regular tune :)
@hvyi "But, why do you suppose Seydel started using thicker combs on Low tuned 1847 Nobles?" I have never played a low tuned Noble but I would assume the thicker comb forces a larger opening of your mouth which in turn creates a larger resonance chamber to navigate the sometimes difficult-to-get-started low tuned reeds. Some of those super duper low tuned harps are like playing a didgeridoo! You almost need your mouth to be swallowing the harp and use circular breathing to get things going! So... the comb shape is making you play the harp differently which affects the "sound". It's YOU making it sound different, not the comb.
For the "F" I would seriously consider Brendan Powers' Lucky 13. I just got an F# and a Db. Both play well out of the box. Richter tuning. Nice to have the regular F with built in low end since I usually play a LF when not soloing.
My preferred harps (for blues) are Suzuki Manji which I have Gary Lehmann retune to a "compromize just" tuning. If I end up using the Lucky 13's much I might retune them.
I used to play Seydel 1847s. Nice harps, hold up well, just don't care as much for the tone.
@BnT Thanks for the mention (I am Gary Lehmann, Gnarly Heman, get it?) Manjis are adjusted from ET, but all the chords don't sound good--only the thirds of the two chords (blow and draw) are changed. More and more I like to have the chords sound good on harmonicas. I just retuned a Chrometta 8 to a circular tuning designed by a customer, and made it more just (since it is diatonic--and half valved). I also vote for the Lucky 13, but be aware that all the Easttops I have seen have all been tuned sharp.
I personally don't mind a normal F harp, although they do tend to irritate all the cats and dogs in the vicinity. Great classic Blues songs to play on an F harp in cross harp: "Sloppy Drunk Blues" by John Lee 'Sonny Boy' Williamson, and "Room To Move" by John Mayall. I bought a Special 20 F harp in 1980 and it was still like new in 2013 when I lost it in Seattle. None of the other 1980 Special 20s I bought lasted that long.
Old post but here goes. Good to have a Low F also. The best I have produced ( pricey but you can do it on your own ) is a Hohner Thunderbird ( you can find them on Amazon for about $ 100.00 )with an Andrew Zajac custom comb. They play like a C.
Don't be scared of the standard F harp. The "shrillness" most harp players complain about is usually due to poor tone (bad technique). Most harp players like keys D and lower. It's their comfort zone.
Listen to great players, especially Jason Ricci play his F harp. You would damn near think it's a C. Also, F is fantastic for cutting through the mix, and is totally bad-assery in third position.
Crossovers are great
Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 14, 2017 4:26 PM
Personally when i think F harp .. I think Sonny Boy II. Rice played the F quite a bit.
As far as Low F. I would never put up Thunderbird money. I would much rather the Session Steel or Manji. Or on the higher end i would rather go 1847. A $120 crossover??? .. Not for me.
But you know ... if you just Must have a low F crossover... I would maybe get a G and tune it down.
I also think the perceived shrillness may have to do with the player. I was watching something that Boris was playing using an F harp a while back and my wife, who has bad tinnitus, commented very favorably.
I have a LowF tbird and a Low F 1847. I had a Low F Session too, but I did it up and sold it. If I want to play Low F I'll take the TBird thanks. It's kind of a $120 crossover but then again, it's kinda special. I got a good deal from Ron on a bunch of Crossovers and bought the TBird. I was saving over $30 each on the xovers so it didn't hurt too bad. Except that I really don't use LowF much. Jazz tunes yes, but that just hasn't happened like i thought it was gonna, and I'm caught up in a Chicago thing that I may as well roll with. GB, I love playing sloppy drunk but lately been doing it in A. I think I might go back to C though. Also Caldonia I used to play in C but it's all about G right now. I like singing in C too though. maybe we can go back there. The only thing I'm doing in C at the moment is Messin with the Kid.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 15, 2017 6:09 AM
I suppose it boils down to taste. But i love my seydels. Bee i would also recommend trying a low manji. They plsy great aswell.
I get it though. All the harp models have their own way they play. Once you get used to it the others just arent right. I had the marine band love for a while ... But after playing only seydels for the last few months .. Nothing else feels right. Hohner just seems too light. Which used to be what i liked about it ... But now i prefer the heavier action of the seydel steel.
Anyhow ... How about tuning down a G to low F? Anybody done that?
With hohner you also have the rocket low now aswell. I have a Rocket in E and i really like it.
The b-flat and f I mainly use are hohner crossovers. So responsive and I prefer the wood comb. I used to avoid the F, but as I have improved it has become a favorite. The extreme responsiveness of the crossover leads to the right breath technique for the f- nice and easy- don't overdo it. I just got a low f rocket that is awesome... loud and responsive for a low key harp. I have some manji low keys that are excellent as well.
IMHO, Low F# is better and more practical than regular (high) F#. Low F# plays and responds pretty much like a regular (non-Low) harp. Regular (high) F# approaches dog whistle territory. I'm not much of a tenor (Low) harp aficionado, but I only carry a Low F# not a regular F#. The problem is that Low F# is not available in most models.
The Marine Band Deluxe used to be available in Low F#. Rockin Ron used to carry Thunderbird reedplates in Low F#, but AFAIK Thunderbirds are not available in Low F#. However, 1847s don't come in regular F#, only Low F#.
I find Low F# infinitely more useful than high F# and reed rattle is not an issue, so conical lower covers are not necessary. So I have low F#'s made for me. Joe Spiers can do this, Mike Fugazzi has done it for me and I'm pretty sure Tom Halchak of Blue Moon does it, too. A Low F# is actually a pretty lively harp and fun to play,
So far as I am concerned, Low F# should be the standard F#. Looked to me like Seydel got it right, then Greg Jones told me that this was only because they can't make a high F# with steel reeds.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 19, 2017 8:58 AM
I carry one high F# in my gig kit in case I need the high speed responsiveness for really fast playing at a shrill pitch, like when I would use a high G! I hardly ever use it and probably could do without it, but I have it and some spares in a drawer, so I carry one in my kit.
I agree that Low F# should be the standard. I have a Low F# MBD, Low F# MBD plates on a Blue Moon comb with old Crossover covers, and the plates and covers from a clearance sale Low F# Big River on an AZ dark comb. They all play great and are my standard choice when this key of harp is needed.
Regarding F harps, however, I usually choose the higher pitched F for faster songs, the lower for slower songs, and often will switch back and forth for moderately paced songs, adding variety to my sound. The range I choose is based on the song's pace, the ranges the singer and other instruments are using, and what feelings I am trying to evoke. I have come to depend on having both Low and High F harps in my kit. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 19, 2017 9:42 AM
There was only one occasion when I wish I had been carrying a high F#. I was at a jam not long ago (not a blues jam) and a tune got called that modulated from something like B or Bb to C#. In that situation the timbre of a High F# would have fit a lot better than Low F#. But once in 36 years or so ain't that bad.
I use a Seydel hard case which has slots for 20 harps. I carry a performing set of 13 and spares for the 7 most commonly used keys. No room for anything else, But that's almost always everything I need.
@1847: If that's your idea of a loud band, you're leading a sheltered life.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 20, 2017 7:49 AM
F Harp? Depends on what you want to do with it. I know my way around a bit - some of ya'll are funny - there really isn't anything wrong with a Hohner Blues Harp. Most of what you hear about them is baloney from reps or people with poor technique. Playing a mean harp doesn't mean to be mean to the harp.
Right . . . another day for that. The "F" - If you want it to cross to "C" but you don't want it to be so high, you can go with a Melody Maker (Melodic Maker) tuned "F" - really a "Bb" (sort of) set up to play "F" melodies in second position. That way, when you play in "F" on a Melody harp it won't be so high, and you can get some sexy bends on the same songs you would play on a Richter "F" in first position.
Manufacturers warn you that they aren't meant for blues, but neither is a Richter, haha. You'll find that 3rd position opens up what Brendon Powers is attempting with his Power Bender (more or less) - draw note set up for the length of the harp. If you ever tried a PowerBender for blues, you may have noticed a dissonant spot in the middle that the Melody harps accidentally don't have - makes for wicked leads up top with smooth, intuitive walk downs, and like that, with no tricky places to worry about.
Seriously, the third on an "F" Melody gives you what you want to cross harp in "C". Instead of third position being a minor, it is a "dominant" major key - works for C minor on some songs, and I mean it works. Ask some of these music theory geeks (good stuff to know) why. I just wing it, let the harp do the thinking, and play by ear. The original blues players did the same.
So, if you want to play a Bb for C get an F Melodic Maker from the Seydel configuring service. Hahaha! I'm not leaving a link. I am not a rep, or particular to Seydel, it's just that they offer the service (Lee Oskar doesn't make a Bb Melody). You say you like plastic combs - go with a Session, or Session Steel. You can keep cost down (relatively) with a Blues Soloist Pro, but they don't hold up as well as a wood comb Hohner in the same price range.
I got my first Blues Harp for $3.25, so . . . the world has changed.
Ha! I just wrote a chapter on a secret that few people have figured out. Believe me, you will love it, unless you just learn everything by rote, note for note. You can wail some rhythm and blues on a Melody in third position, and you won't have to go too low, or too high. Your "F" songs will have more style and still be pretty.
Last Edited by Backwatersage on Feb 22, 2017 9:19 PM
