Header Graphic
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Please define Swing
Please define Swing
Login  |  Register
Page: 1

John95683
221 posts
Jan 01, 2017
10:03 AM
I hear the word "swing" all the time, as in "he really swings hard". Could you all define what that means, specifically in
terms of the harp? A few examples would help.
The Iceman
3016 posts
Jan 01, 2017
11:15 AM
Not the easiest question to answer, as it is a "feel" rather than an exercise in intellectual explanation.

Question has been asked in the jazz educational community for a long long time.

Swing could mean the way two eighth notes are played - not in strict metric tempo, but more towards dotted eighth followed by a 16th note.

In weird phonetics, this is like saying "Dooo be dooo be" and is somewhat related to that shuffle feel "Hut-tah hut-tah".

Swinging hard may also mean linear ideas played in this fashion as well as "leaning back" on the time until it almost breaks.

So, there you have the intellectual wordy answer.
----------
The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jan 01, 2017 11:15 AM
LSB
242 posts
Jan 01, 2017
1:48 PM
Iceman took a stab at answering it with words, which is really an impossible task, but worth the try.

Really, you'd have to get into listening to, and ideally playing, jazz to fully appreciate swing. My suggestion: Start by listening to a bunch of The Buddy Rich Band clips on you tube. Nobody ever swung harder than that cat.
Killa_Hertz
2064 posts
Jan 01, 2017
2:30 PM
I tried to find something that explains the way that I understand it. I think it's a bit more complicated, but ....

What makes it swing?
"Juxtaposition of the actual sound in time with where it was expected in the rhythm. Or, to make it simpler, you expected a sound or an emphasis to fall in a predictable, even place in the music, and it didn’t. Typically the 1,3,5, 7 of the music stays pretty predictable, but the 2, 4, 6, 8 gets toyed with. Or you were expecting “1 & 2” and you got “1 a2” (note the spacing). These variations take place sometimes, but not always just to keep it interesting. Little liberties in the spacing, but never totally losing track, tension built, then released.

Beats don’t change, and in fact having a solid steady backing from a bass or rhythm guitar is essential. Other players will “displace” their rhythms away from the beat in various ways, anticipating or lagging and that’s where you get the magic."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 01, 2017 2:31 PM
nacoran
9333 posts
Jan 01, 2017
2:53 PM
Related to syncopation, which Adam just did a video on.



There are two related aspects- putting the emphasis in a different place and putting notes in different places rather than right on the beat. Having a good sense of rhythm doesn't have to mean you hit every note exactly on the head- it's more about hitting your pattern just right.



----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)

First Post- May 8, 2009
kudzurunner
6137 posts
Jan 01, 2017
2:57 PM
What Nate said. Yes: there's a steady, metronomic pulse: strict time. "Good" time. And then there's where you actually place the notes relative to that beat. If you're a really, really straight player, you always play your notes so they correspond with even divisions of the beat: quarter notes, eighth note triples, sixteenth notes, right on the beat or right on even divisions of the beat.

When you swing, you diverge from right-on-the-beat. You hit early (syncopation) or late (lazy jazzman's swing...like Miles). You do so NOT as a sloppy player who doesn't quite know where the beat is or doesn't have precise enough technique to play on the beat; instead, you do so with calculated artistry, as a way of creating more interest and energy. More freedom within the beat.
JInx
1279 posts
Jan 01, 2017
3:35 PM
The word itself is all the definition you need
----------
The Iceman
3019 posts
Jan 01, 2017
4:56 PM
"When you swing, you diverge from right-on-the-beat. You hit early (syncopation) or late (lazy jazzman's swing...like Miles)"

As a Miles lover, allow me to point out that he left "swing" behind in his late period. The last guitarist he used who "swung" was John Scofield. Miles wanted his band to leave this "old fashioned style" behind, but he did allow John to retain it while in his band. He used to say "God Damn, John" when John would lay back swing his time.
----------
The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jan 01, 2017 4:56 PM
Rhartt1234
218 posts
Jan 01, 2017
6:19 PM
Swings


Doesn't swing
tmf714
2964 posts
Jan 02, 2017
6:30 AM
tmf714
2965 posts
Jan 02, 2017
6:32 AM
tmf714
2966 posts
Jan 02, 2017
6:34 AM
Sarge
585 posts
Jan 02, 2017
6:39 AM
Listen to Glenn Miller: In the Mood and Benny Goodman: Sing Sing Sing. That's real swing.
----------
Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
Goldbrick
1732 posts
Jan 02, 2017
6:41 AM


They be right

As a drummer - I can best describe as a drag of the 1 beat just a hair too long to send it into a loping kind of rhythm rather than a real straight on the beat kinda thing

Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jan 02, 2017 6:46 AM
mlefree
801 posts
Jan 02, 2017
11:34 AM
I find this helpful.



Michelle

----------
SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Mirco
451 posts
Jan 02, 2017
11:47 AM
I remember Jason telling me that you should be able to play ON the beat first, and then you can experiment with syncopating. How can you play +/- in relation to the beat if you haven't mastered playing ON the beat?
----------
Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
WinslowYerxa
1245 posts
Jan 02, 2017
1:21 PM
Swing has many definitions.

There's making the first "half" of the beat longer than the second half (without precisely defining their relationship; it isn't always 2/3 and 1/3).

There's that feeling of relaxation and poise regardless of tempo. (I remember a jazz writer when I was a teenager stating that white bands substituted drive for swing - think Paul Butterfield vs. Little Walter in the blues realm: compare their versions of Off the Wall, for instance.) You can hear that relaxed poise in both clips below.

There's the whole "swing band" style of the 1930s and early '40s. Lester Young aka "Prez" used to insist that he was the world's best swing saxophonist - he was very specific about that (and also right).

And there's a way of phrasing that may or may not involve syncopation - I've heard musicians swing hard on a series of notes delivered exactly on the beat, but in the larger context of other stuff that allowed it to swing (as in the Louis Armstrong video around 8:50).

Here's Louis Armstrong in Copenhagen in 1933. Notice how much more relaxed his phrasing is than the backing band and even the other soloists on the uptempo "Dinah".



And here's Nat Cole, himself a fine jazz pianist before his singing career made him a pop star, with a guest appearance by jazz violinist Stuff Smith on his 1957 Album "After Midnight". Note how Stuff can play right on the beat but scoop into the note to make it swing. And also note Nat's relaxed phrasing.



===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 05, 2017 12:11 PM
tmf714
2967 posts
Jan 02, 2017
4:34 PM
tmf714
2968 posts
Jan 02, 2017
4:35 PM
THE BEST EXAMPLE OF SWINGIN ON THE HARP!

Last Edited by tmf714 on Jan 02, 2017 4:42 PM
Diggsblues
2082 posts
Jan 03, 2017
9:07 PM
When I think of swing I think how eighth notes are played.
The high school band style is usually defined by triplets with the first two tied together but swing has more than one style. The Ellington swing is different than the Cool style.
----------

Last Edited by
Diggsblues on Jan 03, 2017 9:08 PM
BronzeWailer
1944 posts
Jan 04, 2017
4:12 AM
That Nat King Cole song was fantastic. Smooth as a spoonful of ice cream...? Thanks for posting Winslow.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
WinslowYerxa
1246 posts
Jan 04, 2017
1:33 PM
@diggsblues - Dividing the beat is an elastic thing when it comes to that aspect of swing. Charles Mingus pointed out that it can vary a lot, with the only sure thing being that the first part of the beat is longer than the second part. On some early Ellington records (circa 1928) you can hear each soloist, and even the bass player, all playing different ways of dividing the beat.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!
WinslowYerxa
1247 posts
Jan 04, 2017
1:47 PM
Sometimes a specific way of dividing the beat is called for. When I was rehearsing the Bunch O'Guys on Ellington's Creole Love Call, they at first were doing the 2/3-1/3 beat division on the head, and it came out sounding wishy-washy and flippant. By getting them to lengthen the first part of the beat and lean into the last, the sound got tougher. Here's the original Ellington recording, and you can hear how the clarinets at first lean through the first half, then the brass plays more like standard shuffle. (Also dig Adelaide Hall's vocal, which she claims to have improvised during a rehearsal at the Cotton Club):


===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2017 for SPAH in Tulsa!

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 04, 2017 2:05 PM
Jim Rumbaugh
1231 posts
Jan 04, 2017
6:12 PM
I've played swing music for over 40 years and I still don't know what it is, not really. When I read everything posted above I just shake my head on most of it. I found this quote on wikapedia
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_music )
It sums up what I think. :

When Louis Armstrong was asked on the Bing Crosby radio show what swing was, he said, "Ah, swing, well, we used to call it syncopation — then they called it ragtime, then blues — then jazz. Now, it's swing. Ha! Ha! White folks, yo'all sho is a mess."
----------
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)

Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Jan 04, 2017 6:13 PM
wheel
523 posts
Jan 06, 2017
2:23 AM
Simple and short video about swing


For my opinion the best swingin harmonica player in the world is PT Gazell!

----------
Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine)
http://kolesnichenko-harmonica.com/

I'm on CDBaby

Amazon
ITunes
Google Music
my music on youtube
NathanLWBC
109 posts
Jan 06, 2017
6:39 AM
As someone who spent a lot of time receiving an awful lot of jazz education (university trained upright/electric jazz bass player), I had a lot of different instructors explain the ideas to me.

The basic swing feel is not a dotted eight and sixteenth. In fact, this is universally regarded as the "wrong" way to notate swing. It is a triplet spread over a beat in which the first note takes up the first two parts of the triplet and the second note takes up the last part of the triplet.

It's not always that cut and dry, though. If something swings "hard," the first note of the eighth note pairing is even longer than the standard. A really "hard" swing can have a very loping nature. Think trad jazz.

Bright swings tend to straighten out a bit due to the near impossibility of maintaining that at high tempo. For example, a lot of bands take It Don't Mean a Thing in excess of 260 clicks a minute. At that point, the swing is barely noticeable, but it is still markedly different than straight eighths.

I'm glad Mingus is getting so much run in this thread. He was known for pushing tempos (which is responsible for the practice of pushing being drilled into pretty much every young jazz bass player's brain), and, at the end of his career, he would end up so far ahead at times it almost sounds wrong. Almost.

Singing "Dooo ga dooo ga" always helps me internalize the feel, for what it's worth.
----------
--Nathan Heck
General Manager, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
mlefree
802 posts
Jan 07, 2017
11:51 AM
It is said that Buddy Bolden "invented" Jazz, Funk, and syncopation. But one could make a good argument that Louis Armstrong "invented" swing. Satch changed the way Americans sing, play, hear and enjoy their music. The absolute Master at playing with timing.

At least that's the way I see it.

Michelle

P.S.: If y'all haven't seen the Ken Burns' documentary, "Jazz," you really owe it to yourselves to correct that.

----------
SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
nacoran
9342 posts
Jan 07, 2017
2:34 PM
On a slightly related topic, I had a drummer friend of mine describe a related topic, a special time signature he called 'Folk Time'. Folk Time is the time that a singer/guitar (and possibly harmonica) player uses when they are playing alone. Everything is in time with everything else, but not even close to being on a metronome. The good ones use it for dramatic effect, slowing down for sad parts, speeding up to add energy. The bad ones, well, they just can't help it.

I think it's particularly hard to play in Folk Time with a band. In an orchestra setting you've got a conductor up there who can tell you when to speed up and slow down, but when there is no conductor visually telling you how to change the pace you have to either A) All focus on one guy and react on the next beat, or B) really practice a lot!

----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)

First Post- May 8, 2009
Greg Heumann
3308 posts
Jan 11, 2017
12:19 PM
This is a shuffle, but it really swings (Aki Kumar with Trick Bag in Sweden. It is a Facebook URL, you'll have top copy and paste.)

https://www.facebook.com/thomas.pettersson.3726/videos/10205581566417998/
----------
***************************************************
/Greg

BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes


Post a Message



(8192 Characters Left)


Modern Blues Harmonica supports

§The Jazz Foundation of America

and

§The Innocence Project

 

 

 

ADAM GUSSOW is an official endorser for HOHNER HARMONICAS