My first Manji experience has been an out of tune one.
I bought a Manji in D a while back. Right out of the box it seemed like there were some tuning issues. Not terrible, but enough to make me set it aside in favor of other harps. Recently, however, I decided I'd try to address these issues. I do, after all, think that I like most everything else about the instrument and I have always wanted to try my hand at tuning.
The issues I am having is with beating that occurs when playing the 1-4 blow octave and also some beating when playing the 3-6 blow, but unlike the 1-4, this quickly goes away with a little additional breath force. Upon further invertigation there is some of this occurring on most of my other harps but not to the same aggravating extent.
I have a pretty good idea what I need to do (as far as removing material from the reeds tip or base), and I'm pretty sure I have the skill and patience to pull it off (I like doing this sort of thing), but there is much I don't understand which makes me think I might ruin things. Like temperament. I don't understand temperament very well, and I'm afraid that by addressing one tuning problem I might be messing up the proper tuning offsets that make the harp sound good as a whole. I am (clearly) out of my element here.
Any input on how I should approach this project would be greatly appreciated! I only referenced arzajak in the title because he seems to often chime in with good advice regarding these things and because I've been doing a fair amount of reading on his website on the subject.
Thanks! Tom ---------- Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars.
Last Edited by TBird on Nov 26, 2016 8:05 PM
That's correct, if you purchased this instrument in the US from a US dealer, it has a one year warranty. I do notice that you said it happens on all your harps, tho.
I was just thinking about something like this recently--players can "tune" notes on the fly using their vocal resonance, that how good players (Like Todd Parrott) can play equal temperament harps and make them sound in tune.
Suzuki Music can be reached at 800-854-1594--talk to Daron at extension 4410 tho, I am only there Tuesday thru Thursday.
Tom, there is enough information on Andrew's website to guide you through the process of tuning your Manji. It can be intimidating at first, but if you read, and follow the instructions, you'll probably succeed. You can do more research if you want, and you could start off with a crappy or worn out harp, but you are gonna have to crack one open and give it a shot. You might really enjoy it once you try it.
Have to say I agree with Sherwin--tuning is not difficult, you are the best one to do it, and it's quite satisfying to get it right. I was unaware about tuning harmonicas to just and compromise temperaments until I starting working for Suzuki, and now I am keenly aware of the great feeling/sound you get from making adjacent notes agree. Pretty sure all of the diatonic harps I play are compromised to one degree or another. It makes playing the harmonica so much more of a pleasure! Chromatic is a different beast, and I prefer ET for that.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Nov 27, 2016 10:03 AM
Actually, the 1-4 sounds terrible. The 2-5, is off, too. The 3-6 sounds okay, on par with what you should expect with stock harps.
Yes, this is fixable. No, you should't worry about temperament.
Where do you start? Figure out what is in tune and tune everything relative to that.
I think I know what the problem is, but I won't make assumptions. Let's go through this logically.
The 1 and 4 are definitely off. I believe you played the ocatve with variable intensity and the beating didn't go away (maybe got worse?) so I will say the 4 is too sharp or the 1 is too flat. Either raising the 1 or lowering the 4 will solve the beating octave, but which one is the correct change?
Since the 2-5 is also a little out, the thirds are probably not a very good reference. The 3-6 sounds okay so let's assume the fifths are a good reference. Play the 456 chord. Does it sound good? Play it without the 5 (the third) (with the covers off, put your finger over the 5 blow slot). Since we are questioning whether the 2 or 5 is in tune, it can be messing up the sound of the chord (or not).
If 456 sounds good and 4-6 sounds good, then we will use 456 (tonic, third and fifth) as a reference. If only the 4-6 sounds good, don't worry about the 5 yet.
Play 123 chord. Does it sound good? If 456 sounds good, 123 should sound off because it contains the culprit reeds.
If it sounds bad, Tune the 1 blow to be in tune with the 4. I'm pretty sure you need to raise the 1. Take off material at the very tip - it should come up fairly quickly.
Play 3 and 4 together. Does that sound good? 3 blow is the fifth and 4 blow is the tonic. They should sound good together. If they don't, and if we are using 456 as a reference, you need to tune 3 to sound good when played with 4. Correlate it with the 6 blow.
Do the same for the 2 blow - Correlate it with the (now in tune) 1 blow and the 4 blow. If you were questioning the 5 blow earlier, correlate the 2 and the 5. Now that the tonics (1 and 4) and fifths are in tune (3 and 6), play the 123 and 456 chords. Which one sounds best to your ears? Use the third in that chord as your reference and tune the other third to match it. Correlate that reed with its tonic and fifth, too.
Short answer:
If this sounds too complicated, just raise the 1 blow a little and it should fix your problem.
Yeah, I just watched the video too--you're crazy. OK, just kidding. Call Daron tomorrow, as long as you bought it from a US dealer and it's under a year, I am happy to make it right. Have you tried looking at the pitches, using a digital tuner?
I THINK bought the harp off eBay. It was new, but I can't remember who the dealer was, and I don't have any proof of the purchase anymore, so I think the warranty option is off of the table for me.
I'm not sure when I'll have time to sit and puzzle through Andrew's "long answer" method, but I am looking forward to it as I was hoping this would be a learning experience.
Tom ---------- Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars.
Because unlike most instruments, the pitch of a harmonica reed decreases as you increase breath force (air flow). We tend to play harder than we think and if it were tuned to A=440, we would end up playing flat.
Someone like Howard Levy who plays with great breath control meaning they play intense notes but only use very little breath will prefer to tune their harps flatter because playing at such low breath will make the harp sound too sharp.
For someone with good breath control, stock harps can routinely play at A=446 or higher! Stock harps are often tuned much higher than they were years ago, actually. That's a reflection of the dominant trend to play with lots of force - which is probably not a good thing. But who am I to say?
ok so it looks like 7 notes are tuned 12 cents flat. so...... if we tune the harmonica to 440 hz just taking the harmonica out of the box and merely looking at it. it is out of tune.
Well . . . Tuning is a funny thing. Folks in a string quartet play in tune with one another, as do folks in vocal ensembles. When you play a harmonica, do you play with others? You need to play in tune with them. Harps are routinely tuned sharp so that you can do this, as it is not easy to raise the pitch of a note on the harmonica. But it's nice for the instrument to play in tune with itself as well. I always recommend that players get comfortable with fine tuning their instrument.
Some good info in this thread. I didn't actually know about how breath force affects the octave Tunings, that's good to know.
I'm actually finding that the harps I mainly use for Old-time and Bluegrass need to be tuned on the side of ET as I'm playing melodies alongside other instruments and certain notes will sound off otherwise but for blues playing I prefer Just Intonation ( or close to) The only slight issue is some harps get used for both, especially my D. This may then require 2 sets of harps. Could get expensive....:)
After tuning my harps I always fine tune to get rid of any octave beating. Your chart above is interesting.
Can you explain the reasoning behind it? I thought harder breath force flattens notes. Therefore if I play harder and the beating goes away, then I need to lower the bottom note. Wait! Oops, just answered my own question. Thanks for the great chart, I get it now.
Wow! That is probably the best answer anyone could have given in response to my original question.Thanks so much Andrew!
Unfortunately, I had already (just yesterday) addressed the problems my harp was having BEFORE seeing this video and article. Ha! No matter. I still managed to come out with a harp that I would call "good". Yes, it could be better, but I'll heed the advice that has been given and leave it alone. I have learned a lot and I'm calling it a successes. ...I also suddenly want to buy every tuning tool arzajak has for sale! I can see how this could get obsessive...
Anyway, Thanks again arzajak. I hope many others find your advice as helpful as I have.
Tom ---------- Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars.
