I got back from a 4 hour round trip to Lebanon, NH last night to see Lake Street Dive in concert (they were absolutely incredible). To my surprise, Session Americana played an opening set so I got to hear Jim Fitting play harmonica.
The last song they did, Barefoot Sailors, caught my attention in particular. It sounded a lot like 5th position. I was able to ask Jim about it and he confirmed what I was hearing.
For those of you who are always wondering when it's appropriate to play in something other than 1st or 2nd; this is a cool example of how 5th can very nicely serve the song.
Pick up a G harp and play in 5th (Key of B) with 2 blow, 5 blow, and 8 blow being your root note of B. Play cool warbles on 2/3 blow 5/6 blow and 8/9 blow.
Pro tip: The first lick starts on 1 draw and then proceeds through the 1st octave of the scale and ends on 4 draw.
Spoiler: You will need a country tuned harmonica (5 draw tuned up a half step) or be able to play 5 overblow to completely play the song, but don't let it discourage you! ---------- Ridge's YouTube
The root/b3 warble is a thing which doesn't really happen so easily in 2nd and 1st I guess. Of course in 5th the 5th/b7 warble (so popular in 2nd as 4/5 draw) is still available on 3/4 draw, and again on 7/8 draw
Thanks for this ridge. Another reminder that blues licks aren't the be-all /end-all of our little instrument, - and that 1st, 2nd, and 3d Positions aren't our only options. I'll be playing along to this later.
I'm impressed as heck that you could hear/guess this was in fifth when you first heard it. Bone's music videos
Just clicked on your youtube link. You got the chops dude. U nailed Whammer Jammer. Never got that close myself. ---------- Bone's music videos
Last Edited by bonedog569 on Oct 05, 2016 12:15 PM
Help me out here guys. What makes this song in Bm and not D? Although part of the song alternates between a D and a Bm chord, it sounds to me like the tonic is D and he's playing cross harp. The song definitely has a minor feel to it but the note that resonates in my head throughout the tune is a D, not a B. If I'm wrong, then my method of aurally finding the tonic is flawed and I need to know how to fix it!
Great music and playing, by the way, whatever key it's in.
And yes, I know that B is the relative minor of D.
Last Edited by Bilzharp on Oct 09, 2016 10:20 AM
So I've been working on 5th and stumbled upon this thread.
I'm with Bilzharp. I think this tune is in D, fitting is in 2nd position but definitely accenting the B (2 blow)
I was playing along and found myself abnormally comfortable. All the major pentatonic Fingers Taylor ballad stuff I know fit perfectly. I realized I wasn't in 5th, I was in 2nd.
Last Edited by Rhartt1234 on Apr 10, 2017 11:34 AM
B minor is the relative minor of D major which means they each have the identical scale tones. You just start on a different note: blow2 instead of draw2. So, there is considerable overlap between playing in fifth position and playing in second position. The breath pattern for the major pentatonic scale in second is identical to the breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in fifth, just starting on a different note.
If you can play in second, you have the skill set to play in fifth, but there are not as many chords and bends that will work in fifth so, you need to be a little more careful than you do when playing in second.
Pro tip: In fifth blow 10 full step bend and draw 3 half step bend are b5th. Draw 2, blow 3, blow 6 and blow 9 are all b3rd.
Last Edited by hvyj on Apr 10, 2017 8:49 AM
Both main phrases end on a B minor chord, giving that location a sense of finality.
Still, it does have the feeling of vacillating back and forth. (Neil Young used this a lot, putting his harp playing alternately in first and 4th positions).
I started out trying to play E blues on a C harp even though I was hearing an A-harp in second position (Jack Bruce with Cream, playing Spoonful and Traintime). Eventually a guy in a music store told me about "crossharp" and now I could find chords that didn't sound weird compared to waht JB was playing.
Later I was reintroduced to fifth via Charlie McCoy playing on a Gordon Lightfoot record (called Crossroads, but not the Robert Johnson song covered by Eric Clapton)
The most remarkable use of fifth has to be "The Deb" by Dave Therault, heard on the old Harp-L IV compilation:
Charlie McCoy often uses a country tuned harp when playing 5th. I don't find it to be an insurmountable problem most of the time, but playing in 5th on a standard Richter tuned harp, draw 5 and draw 9 are are usually avoid notes because they are a b2d. You can only get the major 2d at draw 2 half step bend.
This is not always a disadvantage, though. You can get mileage out of the b2 if you play Spanish or Flamenco sounding (Phrygian) material. Also, LITTLE WING (the Hendrix tune) lays out perfectly in 5th position. But it's not difficult to avoid draw 5 and 9 when you need to.
I like 5th for playing minor keys because the minor 3rd, minor 6th and minor 7th are all built in without having to bend. So you can move through natural minor chords very fluidly.. And you can get the major 6th at daw 4 half step bend if you want to play Dorian. In general, it's a very flexible and useful position IMHO.
Last Edited by hvyj on Apr 11, 2017 5:23 PM
That flat 2nd scale degree in 5th position can sound really good for tunes that use that note. This reminds me that I wrote a tune specifically to take advantage of that fact. It's called Spanish Changes - it's a 12-bar in E but instead of an A chord (the IV chord) it uses an F chord - the flat-II chord that is so stereotypically characteristic of Spanish music. I played it on an SBS harp (ancestor of the Lucky 13) in C, putting the key of E in fifth position:
I agree with Blitzharp and Rhartt1234 in that I think the song is in D.
There's an emphasis on A (major) rather than F#m, and while the song finishes on a Bm there's some tension with this resolution.
It's a song where you'd usually avoid the 5 draw ie more D major pentatonic rather than the D minor pentatonic. So if playing cross harp you'd play very similar to playing 5th
I couldn't access the original link, only this harmonica-less version
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Apr 12, 2017 7:21 AM
Complete idiot's guide to playing 5th position: Root is blow 2, blow 5 and blow 8. Avoid draw 5 and draw 9. Don't bend anything except draw 3, and don't bend that more than a whole step.
The above is obviously over simplified, but if you follow those instructions and use the correct harp, it's pretty hard to hit a bad note if you are playing a tune that is in a natural minor key.
@ridge - apologies if my post came across as being riled up or critical in any way. The last few years I've been trying to understand the structure of music better - e.g. when would be best to play a major key song in 12th / 1st / 2nd etc (which seems related to which pentatonic works better). Perhaps I should trust my ears more but it's good to back that up with some theoretical basis.
This was an example of a song with an ambiguous key, so was a good test. I posted more to get any feedback from the more musical/ knowledgeable whether I was on the right lines - looking for the 5ths is a trick from a clip that Diggsblues recently posted.
And for what it's worth, both 2nd and 5th position phrases would work on that track, emphasising how close 2nd and 5th really are.
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Apr 13, 2017 9:44 AM
For some time I have believed that the Rolling Stones' song "Under My Thumb" alternates between A major and F#m, and by using a D harp I was switching from 2nd to 5th position.
A few songs use a shifting chorus/ verse key centre between the relative major and minor. Mr Jones by Counting Crows is another
Do you find a D harp 5 draw on the Stones really discordant on the verse, but less bad on the chorus? Difference between a IIb and VIIb note I guess. A country tuned harp would work well on the song I think
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Apr 13, 2017 9:44 AM
@ridge - I'm not sure that you are wrong. It was an honest question on my part. As Winslow pointed out, the fact that the song ends on a Bm would support the assertion that that is the song's key.
I can't tell you the last time someone gave me a chart for a new song where I could look and see what the last chord of the song was. I'm frequently faced with the scenario of figuring out the key of a song on the fly, during a performance. If I can't see the guitar player's fretboard, I try to let the tonic resonate in my head and then quickly find that note on my C harp (off mic). I then grab the appropriate harp (usually good old 2nd position since I'm winging it) and fire away. I realize that sometimes I may be mistaken about what note is really the tonic. In this example I still would have been okay since the harp I would have grabbed for 2nd position in D would be the same harp for 5th in Bm.
Thanks for posting. It has introduced me to some great music and food for thought.
Fitting is using cleverly and appropriately using 2nd and 5th to play the song. However, it raises the idea of "position". Are we playing in a given position because of the key of the song or because of the chord we are playing over at a given time?
Even on a simple Blues we can think harmonically and say we are playing 2nd position on the I, 1st on the IV and 3rd on the V. I play over the changes and use aspects of each position to my advantage, but as far as I'm concerned I'm in 2nd.
Here's Mark Hummel taking the idea of matching chords to positions.
I've been working on Rhythm Changes lately. I approach Rhythm Changes in a Honkin' R&B sax way more than a jazz player, but I'm still thinking harmonically. For the A section it's 2nd all the way. However, on the bridge I'm thinking mostly 2nd, but I am aware that I am kinda playing in 6th, 5th, 4th and 3rd, even though I am clueless about 6th and 4th. I just try and play notes that sound good.
Last Edited by Rhartt1234 on Apr 15, 2017 5:03 AM
The simplest (and mainly best) definition of position is:
The relationship between the key of he harmonica and the key of the song.
Sometimes the key (and therefore position) is ambiguous, as in the case of the tune that started this thread.
Sometimes a tune changes key, and if you stay on the same key of harp your position will change.
Ryan suggests a more granular approach: that you could think of a different position for each chord in a tune. This approach comes up from time to time and is worth discussing.
The chord=position approach offers both benefits and drawbacks.
Benefit is that you can think in terms of the chord itself and explore all the notes in the harp (and resultant pathways, licks, riffs, and tone colors of note against chord) against that chord/position.
So, for instances, in a song in second position that has I, IV, and V chords, you could explore second, first, and third positions respectively.
But the benefit is at the same time a drawback:
-- You can be overwhelmed by all the new data generated by each new chord
-- You can disconnect from playing in the key, where all the chords are elements that work together, and isntead play each chord like it's in a separate tower unconnected to the others except in a sequence of one following another in time.
-- Having generated all those possibilities for each chord, there can be a strong temptation to overplay, throwing in the kitchen sink of position-based licks for each new chord.
So once you explore all those possibilities, you need to:
1. Integrate each chord into the larger context of the key and the song
2. Take the opposite approach: -- Stay in the position and overall key of the song and listen to the chords go by *as part of the overall key** -- Listen to the notes you play as part of the position that relates to the overall key and as something that reacts to the chord sounding at any particular moment.
@Rhartt: FWIW, I find it practical to think in terms of scales and modes rather than positions. I pick a position based on the key of the tune and which position generates the mode that has most of the notes I will need to play that tune. Then, I decide what to play based on what scales are available to me. I should pay attention to the available arpeggios, too, but you get the idea. I'm not claiming this is the best way to do it, but it seems pratical to me.
Btw, 4th position is easy because it is a straight harp position. The only problem is orienting yourself. Start by keeping in mind that blow 4 is the minor third and draw 6 is root. Playing natural minor in fourth position, it's actually pretty difficult to hit a bad note.
Last Edited by hvyj on Apr 14, 2017 5:47 PM
