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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Why vintage amps do not always sound better.
Why vintage amps do not always sound better.
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Harp2swing
236 posts
Aug 16, 2016
3:46 PM
http://blog.hughes-and-kettner.com/why-vintage-amps-dont-always-sound-better-than-new-ones/
Greg Heumann
3264 posts
Aug 17, 2016
9:26 AM
Nice article if you're selling H&K amps. There's no reason a new amp can't sound as good as an old one (pending speaker break in) - however:

Amps are not violins - that argument doesn't hold water.

Many components used to build the old amps (paper in oil capacitors, for example) are simply not available any more. They DO shape the sound and if you're looking for THAT sound it may be hard to reproduce. Just because an old cap and a new cap measure, say, 10 uFd, does NOT mean they respond to transient signals in the same way. Everyone knows vintage tubes often sound better than cheap chinese new ones for that very reason.


In the old days, allowable tolerances for manufactured components were greater than they are today. +/- 10%, sometimes even 20% variation from part "x" in Amp A vs part "x" in Amp B. So there was more variation between those amps. Multiply those variances times the number of components in a typical amp and you can see the possibilities off the production line were limitless. People have been known to take a "one in a hundred" Super Reverb, accurately measure EVERY component and use much higher precision modern components to duplicate that specific amp's circuit as closely as possible. The result is an amp that sounds very much like the old one. At a price that is STUPID EXPENSIVE. H&K can't do this in their production amps, nor can anyone else.

When you buy an old amp, the chances it will sound exactly like the same model your friend has are very low. When you buy a new amp the chances are good it will sound identical.
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***************************************************
/Greg

BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes

Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Aug 17, 2016 9:28 AM
barbequebob
3277 posts
Aug 17, 2016
11:10 AM
Just on the tube argument alone, I agree with Greg a lot because having been playing for over 30+ years, I've noticed the differences in the quality of the old tubes (NOS, meaning new old stock, which was the stuff I always got anywhere before all the US and Western European manufacturers stopped making them in 1985) and the newer production tubes. Granted, the newer production tubes HAVE improved greatly in quality in the past 10 years, but in comparison to the NOS tubes, hands down, NOS tubes still sound much better and on top of that, have a vastly superior record of longevity than any of the newer production tubes because, even tho improved, the components of the newer stuff is vastly inferior to those NOS tubes, which were all made to military grade specifications, which means heavy duty EVERYTHING.

The older amps are in many ways more easily fixable by a do it yourselfer and tho production costs for newer stuff may be cheaper, especially for solid state stuff, the repairs on the newer stuff, especially solid state stuff, is often extremely expensive in terms of repair costs, plus they're not as easy for someone who is a do it yourself type.

Just for an example, I've owned and still gig with a real '59 Bassman that I bought back in 1983 and every reissue I've ever checked doesn't come remotely close to the sound of a real one and the only newer made clone I've ever checked out that comes closest to the real deal is a Clark Piedmont, which is WAY more expensive than any new Bassman reisssue by at least $1000 a pop, but on most every reissue amp of any model, there is a ton of corner cutting being done that may make the manufacturing costs cheaper, but in turn, DOES sacrifice tonal quality and because of the corner cutting, they always suffer by comparison to the real deal.

Like any amp, how well you maintain them certainly does make a difference.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
1847
3620 posts
Aug 17, 2016
11:42 AM
i have a hk 5 watt amp, it sounds ok. not great but ok.
i have a vintage champ. it sounds great. if the champ breaks it is easy to fix.

here is an interesting article

Last Edited by 1847 on Aug 17, 2016 11:45 AM
Harpaholic
892 posts
Aug 18, 2016
2:39 PM
Vintage means tube,

Here is YT video blind test from guitar player magizine.
I put on a set of headphones and identified 3 out of 3 tubes amps correctly

http://youtu.be/qRvRZNg8L0w

See if you can do the same. Hint, the amps that sound the best are tube.

Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 18, 2016 2:40 PM
dougharps
1283 posts
Aug 19, 2016
8:34 AM
Just being a vintage tube amp does not assure that it will give you the best sound that you like. I have a number of tube amps all at least 50 years old, and I like some better than others. They all sound OK, though.

I have some solid state amps that sound OK, too, but the better of the tube amps are the best overall, and the worst of the tube amps are still a little better than the solid state to my ears. But they all sound good enough to gig with. The advantage of solid state amps is the lower weight and reliability after travel.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 19, 2016 8:36 AM
Barley Nectar
1250 posts
Aug 19, 2016
7:33 PM
Having owned, repaired, and built several tube amps, I would say the simpler, lower gain circuits are superior for harp. Remember, low gain does not mean low power. You can have a low gain, high power amp.
Greg Heumann
3267 posts
Aug 20, 2016
12:11 PM
Harpaholic - I have to disagree.

Vintage doesn't mean "tube".

There are plenty of NEW amps that use tubes. However many of them also use printed circuit boards in place of point to point wiring (reliability issue, tone issue), solid state rectifiers, robotically wound transformers, modern electrolytic capacitors, and in general components that all measure +/- 5% of spec.

Vintage means OLD. Older engineering. Older components. Less robotics. Broader tolerances. Oh yeah, and older, better tubes!


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***************************************************
/Greg

BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes

Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Aug 20, 2016 12:12 PM
Barley Nectar
1251 posts
Aug 21, 2016
8:54 AM
I would consider the early late 60's early 70's SS amps to be vintage. The sound you hear depends on your ear. In the end, it's all just gear...LOL
Goldbrick
1576 posts
Aug 21, 2016
9:53 AM
Good vintage gear is magical when you sit alone or with a small group in a home or studio environment and for that alone its worth it to me.
Realistically- once everybody plugs in , cranks up and there is background noise it is no longer a big deal

I am lucky enuff to have an amazing 63 Epiphone archtop electric and a Gibson SJ acoustic that sound as good as guitars get in the studio but at a gig you wouldnt hear the magic

The lure of vintage stuff is the history, the quality of materials and the attention to detail in construction

It means when it was a good one it was amazing but there were crappy ones too.

Modern stuff has more exacting standards and better quality control which means less bad ones but often no great ones either
Greg Heumann
3268 posts
Aug 21, 2016
9:54 AM
Right Barley. Which brings up the corollary: Just because it is vintage doesn't mean it sounds good! At the very end of the Kalamazoo amp line's life (late 60's), Chicago Musical Instrument company replaced the Model 1 and 2 with Model 3 and 4- same size, but solid state. They send JUST AWFUL. Solid state has come a long way since then but the early solid state stuff was really, really ugly.
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***************************************************
/Greg

BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes


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