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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > straight thru the pa
straight thru the pa
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1847
3498 posts
Jun 27, 2016
6:13 PM
ok... after spending all my lunch money on the right mic, the right amp the right tubes
the right hat the best stage clothes a nice pair of sunglasses. i have come to the conclusion....

if you can get the band to turn down....

straight thru the pa. just may be the best way to go.
1847
3499 posts
Jun 27, 2016
6:14 PM

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jbone
2190 posts
Jun 27, 2016
6:59 PM
There is nothing wrong with clean and clear through the p.a. if you have the tone in you and can put it out.
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blueswannabe
605 posts
Jun 27, 2016
8:21 PM
if you have the tone, the PA is just fine, example, Cotton. I Just heard a harp player of over 40 years with amazing tone play through a PA. His acoustic tone could be heard before he stepped up to the mic.
STME58
1755 posts
Jun 27, 2016
8:28 PM
I have not played amped much, but I am about to start doing some. The last two comments were kind of a shock to me and seem to go against what I have understood about playing amped from this forum. jbone and blueswannabe seem to be saying you can compensate somewhat for lack of good acoustic tone with an amp.

Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 27, 2016 8:29 PM
Martin
1028 posts
Jun 28, 2016
4:57 AM
Yes, "you can compensate somewhat for lack of good acoustic tone with an amp."
But that is a thing that can *never* be said. If it ever should slip over your lips it must always immediately be countered with "Of course, 99,99999% of good tone comes from the player!" and various penitentic gestures etc.
Playing straight through the PA makes bigger demands on your tone, your mic, control settings -- and the PA.
That is my, rather uncontroversial, discovery. (I own a Peavey PA from the 70´s. Playing through that is fabulous; I have extended experience from a few other sound systems where the results have been considerably less appealing.)

But contrary to what 1847 says above, I´d say that the band turning down might be of lesser importance when you´re using the PA option.
Thievin' Heathen
778 posts
Jun 28, 2016
5:19 AM
I always have harps with me. Always having an amp would be a little more difficult.
hvyj
3063 posts
Jun 28, 2016
7:45 AM
I used to be a big proponent of playing through the PA. I am picky about my mic, but so long as I can use my 545 Ultimate, I am fine with going through the PA. I do think one gets a "heavier" timbre through an amp, but when I had an amp failure at a gig not long ago I played an entire set through the PA. No muss, no fuss other than not using my pedal board. I never use pedals playing through a PA although I used to sometimes use an Alessis Quadra Verb GT rack mount multi effects unit into the PA.

@STME58: what compensates for a lack of good tone is distortion. To my ear, if a player sets up for a distorted sound ( bullet mic, very dirty amp ) you can't tell if that player has decent tone or not since the quality of the tone is masked by all that garbage which also interferes with articulation since you can't readily get articulate separation between notes especially playing fast. And, as you found out at your audition, many musicians find a cleaner set up to be more musical and easier to manage from a sound reinforcement perspective. CAVEAT: some players achieve what I call "tight" distortion by which I mean a textured or distorted timbre that is well defined and does not blur the edges/definition or contour of each note. IMHO, that can sound very cool and very musical. But, YMMV:

Ya know, so long as I can use my own mic, I basically sound pretty much the same no matter what I play through. NBD.

Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 28, 2016 7:58 AM
dougharps
1259 posts
Jun 28, 2016
7:53 AM
When all you carry to a gig is a mic, cable, and harps it is a much easier load-in. And it can sound good!

I have been using the PA with a cupped Ultimate 58 more and more for gigs, and enjoying it. I sing through the Ultimate 58 a little off-mic, turned up all the way, and then cut back the volume and cup for playing harp. Much of what I play is NOT straight Chicago blues Little Walter or Junior Wells style and NOT West Coast Piazza style. It is a more varied range of music genres and styles, depending on the gig. I think this has improved my tone, because I can clearly hear my playing without the distortion hiding flaws, and can work on sounding better.

I will still occasionally pull out one of my tube amps for some gigs, though I tend to like a cleaner mic like a 585SAV. I like a warm clean sound that breaks up on chords or with increased volume. I only use a bullet when the band is really wanting the distortion a bullet mic gives.

My tone has improved a lot as I have played directly to the PA or through a relatively clean setup for most of my gigs. Recently I was invited to play a couple songs sitting in as a second harp player with a local group. I used the PA mic which I found was set low enough to cup, while the other player used his tube amp and bullet. The other player later commented that I could sound good through the PA without need for a tube amp because I had good tone. I would say I have reasonably good tone, but there is still much room for improvement. Vibrato is easier to work on when playing clean.

I continue to work on using my hands to alter the EQ of my harp for those times I am playing through a vocal mic on a stand and not cupping. Those skills take a while to master. I have improved, but am not as good at it as I would like. Our local Hootenanny uses a couple condenser mics on stage, so that is a good place to work on tone and using hands for playing without cupping a mic.


EDIT: hvyj posted while I was writing, and I want to add something. I think that a distorted tube amp/mic combo can hide flaws in tone for mid level playing, but if someone has really good tone it will shine through the distorted playing. A player with REALLY good tone with a bullet and tube amp stands out. Deak Harp, for instance. His tone sounds great through the amp, but he also sounds great just with a harp and no amplification.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 28, 2016 8:12 AM
hvyj
3064 posts
Jun 28, 2016
8:23 AM
@Doug: yeah. Mic technique (grip) has a lot to do with it. That's one reason I like my 545--strong proximity effect.

There is one very loud (Marshal half stack) but extremely musical guitar player I occasionally do sideman gigs with who wants me to get a "raw" harp sound. After fooling around with different pedals, I finally nailed it by going direct into my Peavey Delta Blues with a SquealKiller between the mic (a high impedance 545 Ultimate with a vintage element I got from Greg) and amp and freely using a 2 button footswitch to kick the boost control and/or the drive channel in and out, although I also get sufficient dirt from the regular channel. I crank the amp, pump the midrange control somewhat and attenuate the signal input with the VC on the mic. The SK is essential at these volume levels. A MojoPad (which is a nice unit) won't work because it won't let me drive the amp hard enough. This set up gives me nice tight, textured tube distortion that is controlable (responds to breath technique) and articulate. Never underestimate what can be done with the right mic directly into a good tube amp. Using ANY pedals will interfere with this dynamic. FWIW.

Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 28, 2016 11:32 AM
mlefree
690 posts
Jun 28, 2016
9:30 AM
As far as playing though the PA goes, I am quite happy with my little Digitech RP-50 with Richard Hunter's firmware patches. I can go from clean to any one of quite a number of amplifier emulations or effects with a couple clicks of the foot pedals.

The RP-50 would easily fit in a lunchbox and it weighs all of two pounds. Depending on the genre I'll choose either my SM-545 or my original Audix Fireball microphone. They would also fit in that lunchbox along with their cables.

I won't claim that my RP-50 equals a real Fender 4x10 or a little original Blackface Champ, but honestly only a few people in most any audience could tell the difference. But my back most certainly can!

The RP also give me a volume control, which I don't have for the 545. The big issue with playing though a PA is that may times I don't have control of the sound board. I find that a volume control is very useful for outsmarting uncooperative sound men. I can set the VC low during sound check and then crank it up as needed while playing.

So I am digging playing through PAs.

Michelle

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Joe_L
2661 posts
Jun 28, 2016
1:17 PM
I love playing through a vocal mic plugged into a PA. It's a great sound and is the great equalizer. If you sound great through a vocal mic plugged into a PA, you'll sound great through an amp. Quite often, I prefer to play through the PA, if an amp is too distorted.

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BC
60 posts
Jun 29, 2016
10:12 AM
At jams sessions, out of not wanting to haul my amp there, I plug directly into the PA. I was concerned about not getting a certain tone, but was actually quite pleased with my tone coming through the PA. I use my Ultimate SM57 which works great with the PA.

BC
http://www.bluesharmonica.com/teacher-accreditation?page=1
Kingley
4019 posts
Jun 29, 2016
10:45 AM
I prefer playing through the PA most of the time. As long as people can hear the harp I'm happy. Other than that I'm basically unconcerned about gear. I'm more concerned about what I'm playing, than what I'm playing through.
1847
3505 posts
Jun 29, 2016
10:56 AM
whats going on kingley? good to see you.
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Kingley
4020 posts
Jun 29, 2016
10:23 PM
1847- Nothing much, just same old, same old. Hope life is good on the other side of the pond.
nacoran
9126 posts
Jun 29, 2016
10:28 PM
I think it depends on the venue. One open mic we used to play the sound guy had some of those narrow Bose speakers and a mixing board. He knew what he was doing and had us balanced and playing in a flash and it sounded great. Same guy, different venue with a house system and it was kind of muddy. Different guy with that second house system and you couldn't record anything because the volume near the stage would peak recording device you have.

With your own amp you have more control over your own sound. In a small place you may have total control over your own sound. But on the other side, unless you've got a wireless mic or a long cord it's harder to find out what you sound like in the back of the room without a good sound guy helping.

I've also got sounds I can't get without my amp (or without the right pedal or complete control over the mixing board.) I've got two separate gains and a master volume that let me dial in how easily I'll distort, can adjust my own bass/middle/treble and add reverb just with the turn of a knob.

It's all about the specific set and place you are performing at.

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1847
3507 posts
Jun 30, 2016
6:03 PM
Hope life is good on the other side of the pond.

things are messed up no matter where you go.. we need a referendum of our own..... none of the above!
1847
3559 posts
Jul 14, 2016
5:15 PM
bonedog569
1040 posts
Jul 14, 2016
8:04 PM
Can't play blues without an old tube amp? Let's ask Sonny Boy

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bonedog569
1041 posts
Jul 14, 2016
8:13 PM
An amp is just a tool. It all depends on who's using it and what they do with it. I love my my old tube amps - but also love playing acoustic- and playing through the PA can be just fine too. Sonny Boy told me so.
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