This is a two part question. The first part is a question mainly for Michelle.
Michelle you brought up the seydel soloist 12 a little while back. I've been looking into them and they seem very cool. I assume the key of C would be the best all around choice for that harp. But im unsure weather i want it in solo or Richter. Which do you have? (Btw i know what the tunings are, im just unsure which way to go. Im pretty sure diatonic, but i have mixed feelings which will be explained by my next question. )
And the second question (for everyone) is:
I have recently got into chromatic a bit. But the problem I'm having is not being able to take it everywhere with me. The reason ive advanced as quickly as i have on diatonic is because I Take my harps everywhere and play all the time. I suppose i CAN take the 64 with me, but #1 its rather big. #2 the windsavers are apparently really touchy and require the harp to be warmed up, etc.
So what i think I'm needing is a bulletproof chromatic. But chroms are expensive. So i was thinking that i could get a nice solo tuned harp. So the question is:
Do you recommend practicing chrom on a Solo Tuned Diatonic?
If so Which One?
Ofcourse i could kill 2 birds with one stone and get the seydel solo12 in C solo tuning, but i think ide rather have one in diatonic. It seems very cool to have a richter tuned C Harp with a low octave.
Anyways ... Advice???? ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 22, 2016 7:36 AM
Killa, it's gotta be the SBS (Richter) model! That's what is so special about the Solist-12. I won't repeat here what I said that you found attractive about them. Suffice it to say that mine is one of my favorite harps.
A 12-hole solo tuned harp would be a half a loaf when it comes to practicing chromatics. It may help to get used to those dratted double Cs but will give you no help viz. the button. In fact you could develop some bad habits if you get too used to not having that button.
If it were me, I'd do three things: 1) Buy a Hohner Educator chrome; 2) Bebop it; and 3) Bebop that 16-holer. The Educator is just about as portable as a Solist-12 and it's less expensive, fine for taking it pretty much everywhere. (You could even go stealth with one of my "Concealed Carry" leather chromatic cases. ;^) ). Use it for your carry harp and your 16-holer for home and gigs.
I hate solo tuning. With your skill and some Blutack you could Bebop both chromes in about an hour and have far more user-friendly instruments. As Gnarly says, all the great chromatic players became so because they were able to overcome solo tuning.
Now, early on in your learning curve, is the time to make a decision about chromatic tunings. Solo tuning was a La Brea Tar Pit for me for a decade. Then I Bebopped.
At least that's the way I see it.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on May 22, 2016 9:55 AM
Is that such a big deal for someone who isn't playing mainly on chromatic though, like most blues players ? I thought it was a Jazz thing always... Nice vid !
Last Edited by Ofir Levi on May 22, 2016 12:08 PM
Sorry it took a min to find the time to watch that whole video.
Thanks for the advice.
Im definitely getting a richter solo12. They are too cool.
But on the issue of the educator. Are they stout enough to even bother with? I thought they were rather airy and not very good. Or is it a "good enough for practice" deal?
On the issue of bebop. I have heard alot about it, but wasn't sure what it was until now. It seems cool, but the only issues i have are, since i haven't learned solo tuning yet ... would it get confusing? Also when trying to learn songs would it get confusing because my notes aren't the same as the lesson, songbook, etc. ?
And the octaves change right? There arent all the blow octaves available? So things like Clarke's - "the work song" , which is basically all octaves, i wouldn't be able to play? (Its the only song i even kind of know .. lol. That's why i bring it up. )
Why is this SO much better in your opinion than solo? It obviously made a huge change for you, but since i have very little experience with solo ... i don't really understand why the 2 blow Cs are such a huge deal.
Bebop is the way to go in my opinion. I was tripping over those double C blow notes. I read about bebop, talked to Gnarley, he does a sweet retuning job. You will rarely if ever have any trouble following books etc... Remember the only note changed is a duplicate, and you get the flat 7th. All octaves are still there, plus a new one. If you are following tabs you might have to change one or two in a tune but not usually. You can change tabs to get faster runs, breath changes etc.. With bebop you have an extra way to get the Bb. As a beginner bebop made the chrome easier, more fun, and more logical to play for me. Easiest thing is to draw out a map of the notes on a solo tuned. Then draw out bebop . You will wonder why anyone bothers with solo.
Oh wow it's me. I don't like solo tuned diatonics, as it turns out--and I do like diatonics, don't get me wrong. As far as bebop, the main thing is the reversal of breath direction. It occurs at hole 7 on Richter, but keeps happening over and over on the Chromatic. OK, it only happens two or three times, but still--when you start playing intuitively, it's nice to know that a draw note is always higher than a blow note, knomsane?
There is an alternate tuning for chromatic, Winslow uses it (I just fixed his 12 hole D with the tuning). Instead of D, he changes holes 4 and 8 to B. On a C, that would be A. This isn't really a bebop tuning, although that's what Tinus calls it on Overblow.com, Bebop A. The reason it's not a bebop tuning is that there are still 7 notes in the "given" scale. Bebop scales are 8 note scales, they make it easy to play eighth note strings.
Craw .... Gotcha. Yea, ill have to write it out n see. I thought the octaves would change but yea your right in solo you still have two C octaves next to eachother. In bebop youll have Bb then C?
Ahhh the breath reversal. Right. That's gotta make it feel more natural.
Idk I'm sure your tuning is great Gnarly. I just haven't been playing the Chrom long enough to even have my bearings. So i will likely give Bebop a try, but id like to play chrom in solo for just a little while first and hit that brickwall for myself so i can really understand and appreciate the feel of the change to bebop.
Ok so to hell with solo tuned diatonics.
What's the consensus on a bulletproof / inexpensive practice chrom i can take with me everywhere?
The Educator has no valves, and so is not airtight. Why limit yourself to a inferior instrument? As fate would have it, I am the repair guy for Suzuki USA. We have a one year warranty. If you buy an SCX-48 (Ron has them at a good price) from a domestic vendor, you get warranty service. That doesn't mean you can drop the harp on the button, but it does mean that if you break a reed, we fix it. An alternative is the CX-12, while far from bulletproof, it is easy to adjust due to the design--taking the harp out of the shell/mouthpiece/cover is really easy. Be prepared to get the harp warm before you play it, you'll see what I mean--warm breath+cold harp=condensation=sticky windsavers. An alternative that I know of but don't recommend (well, I guess I am, in a way) are Swan or Easttop chromatics. I don't work for those companies, and I don't think they are as good as the Suzukis.
I have found out the cold harp issue already. And this is one of the reasons I was looking for an "On The Road" Practice alternative.
I guess I'll just have to stick to practicing the Chrom at the house.
The CX12 was the harp I was looking at before eventually getting the 64. The Problem with that is the CX12 doesnt have that sweet lower octave. The Tenor Tuned does, but its considerably more money. I think, given my options here, I'm better off either investing in a heating pad I can plug into the car or just limiting my chrom. practice to the house. Its a shame the darn things cost so much. or rather that there isnt a decent entry level one. I realize why they cost so much. They are an official instrument. The 64 I have is super solid. But still it would be nice to have something worth using at a lower price range and not worrying about ruining. Perhaps I will still take Michelle's advice and try the educator.
If I decided it is infact too leaky, would it play decently if wind savers were added?????
I realize I would then be back to my original issue, but at least I wouldn't have a $50 paperweight. And I could possibly use this on the road still without having to worry about messing up the 64. Im tough on stuff, so I need to fool proof myself by just leaving the 64 at home. lol. ----------
I mentioned the Educator because of its size, price and lack of valves. If valves give you so many problems, it might be an alternative.
But look, Killa. Thousands upon thousands of happy chromatic players deal with valves on a daily basis. They're no fun but they can be lived with. Put your harp under your arm or inside your waist band for a few minutes and you're good to go.
Those 16-holers are huge. Yes, they have an extended range but those high notes are too squeaky for my ears. Toots made an international career with a 12-holer and so have many others. Now that I've Bebopped and replaced the terrible OEM valves, my Hering Baritono is a little sweetie.
If I were you I'd do some research and buy a 12-hole chromatic. Suzuki and Seydel both made some great ones. You's have a much more friendly instrument for everyday practice and playing and you could reserve that 16-holer for your performances at Carnegie Hall. ;^)
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Yeah, what's up with those Hering valves? They make noises like playing cards in bicycle spokes. Killa, I will find a used 12 hole harp to sell you, if budget is a problem. I don't think that the CX Tenor is more expensive than the regular one--but they are both over $200.
Oh, and you can't put valves on an Educator--every reed has its own chamber.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 23, 2016 8:35 AM
Thanks you guys for the baby gloves version. Lol. That's what i needed i think.
I agree the high end sucks. So aslong as i can find a 12 hole with that low octave ... im down with that. So ill do my research on which have that kind of note layout.
Gnarly im really not trying to spend anywhere close to that. I think i spent just over $60 for the 64 totally refurbished. So if i can't find a 12 hole in the right range and condition, maybe ill just bite the bullet and bring the 16 hole with me. I just wanted to know my opinions i guess. And i thought the solo tuned diatonics was a good idea at first.
So thanks alot guys. Ill do some thinking and see which way i wanna go. Atleast its now an informed decision. ----------
Unlike the rest I like the Seydel orchestra or solo tuned diatonics , but I valved and bebopped mine. Fun pocket harp for noodling around with in the truck or on the boat where I don't want to bring a "real harmonica" with a button and windsavers.. .
Gnarly .. i think I'm going to take your advice on the chrom. Ive been looking into the SCX line. I think I'm going to go with the SCX 64 because of the lower octave. The scx 64 and the CX12 tenor are about the same price at Rons so. ..... but the scx seems to have the high quality im looking for. With the 2 piece mouthpiece, etc. People give them very high reviews.
So i think I'm going to bite the bullet and buy a new SCX 64 from Ron.
As much as i wanted a smaller model, there doesnt seem to be a 12 hole with all the things i want. I wish you could try these things out first. ----------
Great! I find them to be fairly robust, that is, I don't do a lot of warranty work on them. One thing to remember, don't drop it on the button! Carrying it around in the case is a drag, see if you can come up with a way to carry it with you without having to do that. I actually carry a 12 hole tuned to Orchestra bebop everywhere I go, a 16 holer is a little tougher but I am sure you can come up with a solution.
I also want to recommend reading thru topics on Slidemeister, you don't have to join if you don't want to, but the archives are a treasure trove of valuable info on slide harmonicas!
Thanks for the advice man. Ive been reading quite a bit on the subject, but still know very little.
I think i will eventually get a 12 hole model somewhere down the line, but i really don't see as much use for that high octave as i do for the low. If the SCX 12hole had the low octave i probably would be getting that.
What is your weapon of choice when it comes to 12 holers? How do you feel about the low octave lop off vs the high octave? ----------
Like I say, my personal favorite is the 12 hole in C which starts on G3 (third hole of the 16 hole harp) and ends on G6 (thus eliminating the top two holes of the chromatic, except for that G). I also bebop the harp, so that there is a Bb instead of two Cs next to each other--like so: | C d | E f | G a | Bb b | This is a tuning I discovered because Bill Barrett uses it--the only difference between us is that he can really play it! I like to say that I'm the best harmonica player in a room full of folks who don't play the harmonica!
Hmm. That's very interesting. I noticed that seydel tunes some of theirs that way. I was actually reading up on it today because i thought it was kinda stuipid because you only have half octaves this way on the bottom and top instead of just having one or the other. But now i see why they do it. Because you still have G up and that's your root in cross, so really you do have full octave. Is that right?
If so this may be an interesting way to go, but likely not the best for learning on. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 29, 2016 6:46 PM
Exactly--blues in G on this is fun and pretty easy! As far as best for learning on, a standard C chrom should be fine, but I personally am glad that I switched early on (well, I was 50, but still . . . only played chrom for 18 months or so . . . so I hadn't gone too far!). Bill is coming to SPAH this year, and has consented to help demonstrate the bebop tuning at my seminar demonstrating and promoting it. Wow, celebrity guest stars!
