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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > 2 Silver 1847's died today!
2 Silver 1847's died today!
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John M G
42 posts
Apr 29, 2016
1:43 AM
I'm gob smacked! I Lost 2 1847's today and both have gone flat on 5 hole draw! The A and G!
Both harps not quite 12 months old!
I've been playing harp for about 40 years and in the early years while learning blew reeds, but I've never ever had the 5 hole draw reed flatten. Sure 3,4 and 6 hole draw and 7 and 8 blow.
But I can't remember the last time I had a harp go flat and some of my Lee Oskar's were bought over 20 years ago!

Anyone else been through this with the Seydel 1847's?
I bought 4 of them last June and my confidence has been severely shaken in them, I mean I know I'm playing a lot more recently, but 10 months seems way to short a life span.

I really am not hard on harps at all and while I like the tone and volume of the Seydel's I'm now real leery about their reeds.

Not a happy chappy today :-(

On the plus side I love my Lone Wolf Boogieman. That was a good buy.

Cheers JG

Last Edited by John M G on Apr 29, 2016 1:44 AM
Killa_Hertz
1205 posts
Apr 29, 2016
3:14 AM
That really sucks. Two 5 holes?

If you have facebook, goto the harp repair page and look up greg jones. Hes apparently the US Seydel rep. And hes always raving about seydels warranty. He can surely tell you who to contact. Make em put their money where their mouth is. Thats what i would do. Those harps are too expensive for that.
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SuperBee
3655 posts
Apr 29, 2016
4:40 AM
I can fix them for you John. And we're in the same country. My email is in my ID if you click on it...or contact me on Facebook. David Hall. If you want to have them mended of course.
Gnarly
1761 posts
Apr 29, 2016
6:06 AM
5 draw is the usual suspect, hard to believe it's your first in 20 years!
As far as draw 3, I have never broken that one--but then, I don't break reeds very much anymore.

@Killa--he has had the harps for most of a year, do we believe that manufacturer's defects are responsible for his fracture?
Of a stainless steel reed?
I don't think Seydel's warranty covers this--and a repair (generously offered by a list member) should take care of it.

Last Edited by Gnarly on Apr 29, 2016 6:09 AM
Killa_Hertz
1212 posts
Apr 29, 2016
8:59 AM
hey IDK . Im just saying .... Never know till you try.

I would say that if none of his other harps break ,,, in 20 years .... yes defect is surely possible. especially if they were bought at the same time. Maybe a crappy run of reeds. Who knows.

Im just trying to help the guy out. Not figure out the cause. If you can get it done for free why not? If i had my $30 harps outlasting my $90 harps. Ide be pretty pissed. Call Seydel Out and see what they say.


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bonedog569
1004 posts
Apr 29, 2016
11:03 AM
I have never had harps last as long without blowouts as my 1847's. I have changed my playing style somewhat in the last few years so that may well be part of it, - but I'm still impressed. Sorry you're having hassles. I used to think of harps as disposable (Marine Bands where $5 when I started playing) but not so with these harps.
1847
3406 posts
Apr 29, 2016
11:51 AM
just be glad you don't play drums...
sticks break, drum heads break, cymbals break,
so do foot pedals.

guitar strings break, frets wear out. cords die out.


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Goldbrick
1408 posts
Apr 29, 2016
11:59 AM
"sticks break, drum heads break, cymbals break"

Only if you never learned to play properly or u think you are Keith Moon
1847
3407 posts
Apr 29, 2016
4:19 PM
i hope you are all happy.... i just lost 4 blow.

i have to admit, it was fun in the process, i have been unplugging the speakers in my bassman, and comparing them one by one. using my champ as a head.

i currently have 2 eminence mojo tones
a re-coned p10Q and the new wgs g10a.
all of them sound great.
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SuperBee
3661 posts
Apr 29, 2016
4:57 PM
Congratulations Bobby! I would offer to fix yours too..but postage a bit silly from California to Tas-mania.
Yeah I don't know if the Seydel guarantee is international or offered by national distribution.. I actually have a bunch of Seydel plates here which were replaced under warranty so I can guarantee they do fail for many people within the allotted time.
10 months doesn't surprise me. Many people get less life from a harp than that, especially if they are playing in a way that breaks 5 draw. The OP has told us in other posts that he has had a long break from playing so the 20yo harps are maybe not a good yardstick for anticipating the life he should expect from harps he purchased as a result of renewed interest. And he's been playing through an amp and practicing with a band...so that is where harps break. I haven't blown a reed in 2 years, and I play everyday, probably more than I used to, but I haven't played much in a band the last 2 years, just a dozen or so jams...prior to that I was practicing amped in a band weekly and gigging fairly regularly and it was often loud and I did break reeds...and sometimes quickly. It's my belief reed failures are more often about 'events' than the passage of time. Just one loud heavy flat bend can be enough to damage a reed and failure follows shortly after...
John M G
43 posts
Apr 29, 2016
5:56 PM
Well, I started playing back in the dark old days of wooden combs and nailed together harps and back in the 70's. I thought they were inexpensive and disposable.
I've currently got the following harps in my kit.
A car set, a bog set and a best set for gigs comprising the following;
15 Lee Oskar's, LF, 2 G's, 2 A's, Ab, 2 Bb's,B, 2 C's, 2D's, 2 E's, 2 F's and a HG
4 Silver Classics G, A, B? and a D
3 Manji's an A and a Low D and Low F
3 Suzuki FireBreaths, A, C and F
2 Special 20's that never get played being an Eb and a Db
I Hohner Crossover in F I bought to give it a try.
In my ancient kit of bits, I threw out a lot of reed plates in the early days I've still got 5 pairs of Lee Oskar used plates.
I don't know how my stash compares to other players, but I've put a bit of hard earned into my harps along with some really good combs from Tom at Blue Moon.

To say I'm really pissed that these Seydels have blown so quickly what with all the BS about how long they should last has really got under my skin.

I'm not hard on harps. What really makes it hard is that I liked their sound and the way they played.
Initially I bought them and the Suzuki's thinking they be a better bet at overblows than my old Lee's, but I've set up a couple of the Lee's and I'm pleased at what I've got out of them messing around with overblows, and all I'm really after is hole 6 overblow anyway.

Any way, just venting, I hate being got and I'm fairly bloody dark about all the crap about the longevity of those stainless reeds.


Begs the question, are there any serious Lee Oskar users these days?
What are the harps of flavour currently?

I did speak to the Seydel guy here in Oz and he says the reeds have a 6 month warranty. I know warranty stuff is a pain, I used to be in the motorcycle industry and had a Suzuki dealership in the 80's for a while. But while my but points at the tarmac there's no way I'll ever shell out for another Seydel, good as they sound they don't last!

There is no way on this earth they are worth the money you have to pay for them......rant over!

Cheers JG

Last Edited by John M G on May 03, 2016 11:54 PM
Killa_Hertz
1225 posts
Apr 29, 2016
7:08 PM
I think you just got unlucky. I also think bee has a point. That possibly a single event is largely responsible. It may be the longer the time, the less severe the event needs to be. Idk. Ive yet to break any reeds.

I also fully understand your point. Unluck or no ... you feel burned. So it is what it is.

Since you like Lee Oskars and also the sound of seydels. May i suggest a Session Steel. One of my favorite harps. It has bigger hole openings like the lee oskar. And they are not as costly as the 1847. I also have a few that i have put 1847 covers on. They play nicely both ways. I think you ll like em. If your not too burned by the two flat reeds.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 30, 2016 12:00 PM
eebadeeb
101 posts
Apr 29, 2016
7:27 PM
I've posted this before but I don't believe Seydel has any warranty. The US Seydel rep offered to repair my 2 month old 1847 Silver 4 blow for $35 no warranty. I got it repaired elsewhere and 2 months later 6 blow went.
Gnarly
1763 posts
Apr 29, 2016
8:14 PM
Seydel USA has a two year warranty, not sure what all it covers.
eebadeeb
102 posts
Apr 30, 2016
6:25 AM
Seydel warranty does not cover reeds. I'm sure it covers defects in material and workmanship but I think that is actually an implied warranty for almost anything you buy from any reputable manufacturer. The fact that they claim stainless reeds are superior would seem to me a reason they would want to stand behind them. Seydel rep did not ask for any verification of purchase date. I told him the 1847 Silver was less than 2 months old.
SuperBee
3671 posts
Apr 30, 2016
6:32 AM
I know the fellow in Aus replaces reedplates under warranty but as John posted above, 6 months
Grey Owl
737 posts
Apr 30, 2016
10:42 AM
John M G 'Begs the question, are there any serious Lee Oskar users these days?'

This guy Taro Senga from a Japanese Band called Monster is an amazing Harp player who appears to play Lee Oskar harps. Here is a still from the video.



Here is the Video. I like the tone he produces with the LO, it's pretty distinctive. I think I'll have to try one of these out.



And here is a LINK to a Forum discussion about the player if you haven’t already seen it. It includes some great live footage.

I have some Session Steels that are very good harps, haven’t had any reeds break yet. Sorry to hear you’ve had so much hassle.

GREY OWL HARP
YouTube

Last Edited by Grey Owl on Apr 30, 2016 10:56 AM
nacoran
9045 posts
Apr 30, 2016
11:08 AM
Bad News Brown was playing them before his untimely death.

And of course, Lee Oskar!



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First Post- May 8, 2009
Killa_Hertz
1230 posts
Apr 30, 2016
12:06 PM
Yes! MONSTER. That video is killer.

Lee Oskars are "ok" all harps seems to have their Achilles Heel. Which ones bother you and which don't.

MTG is a fan of the LO.

I have a few and play them now and again.
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Goldbrick
1409 posts
Apr 30, 2016
1:05 PM
Lee Oskar






Michael Pickett is another good LO pro





Junior Wells used them too. Supposedly he is buried with some Lee Oskar harps

Last Edited by Goldbrick on Apr 30, 2016 1:15 PM
1847
3408 posts
Apr 30, 2016
2:32 PM


i'll never admit to it.... always had a crush on kellie
Thievin' Heathen
745 posts
Apr 30, 2016
4:54 PM
I see a lot of working harmonica players playing Lee Oskars. Awhile back, I bought a bunch of used LO reed plates on ebay for parts and reed & slot work practice and experimenting. A lot of them, especially the D's, had cracked 5 draws. Another time (ebay again), I came across a "lot" of harps which was heavy in Seydels. Turned out, many of these had cracked 5 draws.

Breaking the 10 blow on my Session Steel kind of shattered my delusions about stainless steel being a superior reed material. There's a lot to be said for the good 'ol Special 20.

What was the question, again?
R2D2
34 posts
May 02, 2016
2:12 AM
Have you tried cleaning them?

Last Edited by R2D2 on May 02, 2016 2:13 AM
John M G
46 posts
May 02, 2016
5:45 AM
R2D2, I wish a simple clean was all that was required!
The reeds are very very definitely dead.
dougharps
1215 posts
May 02, 2016
9:20 AM
From 2008 to 2010 I used an 1847 key of A harp as my pick-up-and-play harp. It got a LOT of use. The 9 blow finally failed, probably from practicing the blow bend combinations on 9 and 10 a lot. At that time I got the reed replaced by David Payne of Elk River.

Any brand of harp would have likely have had SOME reed fail with this much use/abuse. But the 9 blow is an odd reed to fail. This is the only harp on which I ever lost a 9 blow reed. Usually my 4 or 5 draw has gone when a reed died. Stainless steel reed harps DO fail, but for me they seem to hold up a little better than regular brass reed harps.

Despite the SS reed failing, I still like the 1847s a lot, just not the price. They HAVE lasted longer for me. I have some Session Steels, but I like the 1847 covers better than the stock SS covers. I am going to try 1847 covers out on a Session Steel.

The cost of replacement reed plates is a factor, too. Rockin' Ron's list both 1847 and SS plates at around $41, give or take. So once you have one, new plates cost close to what a new Hohner SP20 or MB would cost.

I still tend to choose different brands at different times. I like my Hohner's for bending ease, though they don't hold up as well to abuse if I get carried away.

My customized Marine Bands are the easiest to control bends accurately. I don't have the skills and patience to do that kind of reed work. If I wear out my current harps (not too likely, since my breath control has improved) beyond my ability to repair them, I will probably slowly replace them with custom harps.
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Doug S.
Killa_Hertz
1263 posts
May 02, 2016
9:58 AM
Doug ... im kinda the same way. I use different harps for different things. If im having a tough time with hitting the notes on something that's a little on the fast side, i learn it on a marine band first because everything plays easier on them. Things like that.

I think you ll like the cover swap. I like the session cubes in the 1847 also.
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Killa_Hertz
1264 posts
May 02, 2016
10:01 AM
Heres a recent swap i put together. I did this because the 1847 catches hair with the stock covers. I think i like the covers from each harp swapped better.

 photo 20160429_204504_zpssehaypgm.jpg

 photo 20160429_204325_zpsukclyzel.jpg

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Killa_Hertz
1265 posts
May 02, 2016
10:02 AM
 photo 20160430_233828_zps7ezcro2k.jpg



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1847
3416 posts
May 02, 2016
10:15 AM
IMG_0300
the session steel plates are 30.00 dollars.

i have a few 9 blows that have gone out. i seem to remember brad repairing my harrison harmonica 9 blow.

when you bend a reed past the proper pitch is seems to stress the reed more than normal.
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dougharps
1216 posts
May 02, 2016
10:25 AM
@1847
Thanks for catching my SS plates price error!

I mistakenly entered the price for alternate tuned SS plates after I checked Ron's site. Around $30 had been my earlier experience.

I am glad I was wrong about around $40 for SS plates. $30 for replacement plates is much more reasonable.
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Doug S.
dougharps
1217 posts
May 02, 2016
10:35 AM
@John M G
I still have almost 2 full sets of LOs. I started revisiting them a year or two ago, and keep a set in my car all year. Very durable harps, but not my favorites. I sold off my remaining replacement reed plates a while back so I could buy different brand harps. I like other brands of harps better.

That being said, I find that the higher pitched LO harps are quite serviceable, and would gig with them. The lower key LOs seem airy compared to (SP20s and up) Hohners, Manjis, and Seydel steel models, even when the LO gaps are adjusted. They are OK. But I still like the higher LOs as much as any brand, and they will overblow the 5 and 6 just fine after gapping.
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Doug S.
John M G
47 posts
May 04, 2016
12:20 AM
A bit of an update since the weekend.

I had a very nice email from Dane at Mandoharps here in Australia. He is the Seydel importer in Australia who I purchased the harmonicas from in the first place.
I can't fault Dane, he has offered to replace the reed plates in both harmonicas at his own cost.

You can't get better than that, but unfortunately I'd already shipped both harmonicas to a repair guy in Victoria (I need them back ASAP for a gig next Saturday) and rather than ring him to say just send them back, I'm very happy the offer was made by Dane, but for the reasonable price to have the 2 reeds replaced, I will go with Jamie Robinson the "HarpDude" to replace the 2 individual reeds.
I feel for Dane in this situation. To my mind it's up to Seydel to make amends for the early failures, especially considering their claim the reeds WILL last up to 5 times more than other reeds.
I just thought I should let others that may read these posts from Australia know that Dane has stepped up to the plate and is someone I'd buy from again.
Trouble is, my confidence has been utterly shattered with these two premature failures and it will be unlikely I'll be buying anymore Seydels in the future.

To that end, I've just purchased 3 of Tom's Blue Moon alloy combs for me Lee Oskars.
I'll look forward to setting them up once they get to Oz.
1847
3420 posts
May 04, 2016
7:15 AM
Proverb

a bad workman always blames his tools

It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them.
Goldbrick
1420 posts
May 04, 2016
7:43 AM
@1847

True Dat


Way too much emphasis on the equipment around here.

At a gig no one will hear the custom tiger face comb with unobtanium reeds

I just played a gig with a guitarist who had left his Gibson 335 home because it was an outdoors gig.

He sounded just as good ( and he is a damn good player ) on the $ 100 Squier he used for the outdoor gig
Killa_Hertz
1276 posts
May 04, 2016
9:56 AM
The combs aren't about the colors. I hate when people say that. If any manufacturer could put out a decent comb, i think Tom would go out of buisness. Flat custom combs along with even mediocre reed work makes a WORLD of difference.

I get the point your trying to make, but i don't fully agree. Its true that the better you get the less the little things matter. I'm finding that myself. But the statement "You can always improve a harp" is also true. I don't think that you should just accept a crap ootb harp and learn to play it as is. Thats just silly.

But i think your statement applied to amplified equipment is very true.

1847. I agree with your comment aswell, to a point.

Anyways what do i know? .... That's just my 2 cents.


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Goldbrick
1423 posts
May 04, 2016
4:41 PM
Of course you can improve harps. I am just saying it is very possible to get good results with box stock stuff.
The blues were built by guys who were grateful to have mile high action Stellas, monkey ward airline amps and rusty Marine bands

The guy has a box full of Lee Oskars yet needs these Seydels right away for a gig ??

I sympathize that is important to him-- but the audience wont know the diff
Killa_Hertz
1277 posts
May 04, 2016
7:24 PM
Yea your right. But rusty old marine bands? Im sure the harp heroes used whatever mics and amps they could get their hands on, but ... i dont believe for a second that they weren't tweaking harps. They all just kept it secret.


But again. I get your point.
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John M G
48 posts
May 05, 2016
8:45 PM
"Proverb

a bad workman always blames his tools

It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them. "

1847, is that you at your best trying to help another harp player?
Love the irony though, me being a toolmaker by trade!
You get an A for irony but fail with an F for practical & constructive helpful comments.
1847
3429 posts
May 07, 2016
8:08 AM
The fastest way to kill a reed is to bend past the proper pitch. Hole 5 draw contains two notes.
On a C harp in cross position the notes being F and E. it is very easy to bend past the 5 draw bend.
The correct intonation is extremely important. Stress is already being placed on the reed by bending.

A harmonica is typically tuned to, equal tempered, just intonation, or a compromise of the two.
When a harp is tuned to equal temperament, the notes are balanced, an equal distance between the two.

The 5 blow and 5 draw work in concert when bending.

A harmonica tuned to just intonation the 5 blow reed is 14 cents flat.
The draw reed is 27 to 32 cents flat.
It requires very little bending to get it to the proper pitch.

On a seydel harmonica the 5 blow reed is tuned 14 cents flat and 5 draw is 2 cents flat.

I personally play very aggressive. So in addition to the risk of blowing out reeds
There is the added benefit of......... sounding like S%$#

The better your intonation the longer your harps will last. At the end of the day,
The harmonica is a toy, toys break, get over it.
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Killa_Hertz
1304 posts
May 07, 2016
12:51 PM
Good point. I dunno about the toy part. But harps tuned differently will have different degrees of bend needed to hit the same pitch. Hmmm. Interesting.

Sounds obvious, but ive never thought of that before.

This would also surely be a factor in the life span of a reed, i would think. If you have to put more pressure on one than the other because of the tuning. Hmmm. Good one.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 07, 2016 12:53 PM


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