Header Graphic
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > A Question of Volume (for Winslow)
A Question of Volume (for Winslow)
Login  |  Register
Page: 1

MindTheGap
1473 posts
Apr 15, 2016
10:19 AM
We've got a thread in the Beginner's Forum discussing acoustic volume and breath efficiency.

In a nutshell, it's of interest to us beginners (well, me anyway :)) what sort of acoustic volume a pro can create, what their dynamic range is, how efficiently they use their air. What to aim for.

If you were able to comment there, that would be much appreciated. I thought of Winslow first, but if anyone else has something to add, that would be great too.

We don't want a physics/mechanics discussion. Please.
harmonicanick
2416 posts
Apr 15, 2016
10:29 AM
OT MindTheGap but Phil Sayer the voice of that saying, died today.
Sorry to announce this service terminates here RIP
rogonzab
941 posts
Apr 15, 2016
10:31 AM
I am not a pro, I feel more close to the begginer forum, but since that you posted this here...

I play quietly

Clearly more quiet than the people that I know, but in the last couple year, since I started to study 2-4 hours a day, my volumen has increased. I didint do this at will, it "happen". My gues, is that the more better tecnique you have, you can make a more eficient air flow, ergo more volume.

I dont know if this is right or not, is just mi experience.
----------
Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
MindTheGap
1475 posts
Apr 15, 2016
10:54 AM
harmonicanick - :( Yes I saw that and that lovely comment from his wife. A voice that's been with me as long as I can remember.

rogonzab - Thanks yes lots of people say the same thing. We're trying to quantify it. Over in the other thread you are invited to record and post your dynamic range!

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 15, 2016 10:54 AM
Tuckster
1510 posts
Apr 15, 2016
12:10 PM
I'm far from an expert,but as a guy who struggles with his breath control,particularly in a live situation. We don't blow or suck the harp,we breath through it. It should be very relaxed and never forced. The pros can control their dynamics with hand effects and their internal resonance with the reed(s) being played.I've seen videos demonstrating how you can change the volume by varing the opening of the cup.Somewhere between fully open and fully closed is a "sweet spot" where you hit a resonance sympathetic to the reed being played and voila! more volume. You can vary the volume by varying the cup.

Rogonzab- I'll bet you learned to better adjust your internal resonance to that of the reed. That's why you get more volume with less effort.

Last Edited by Tuckster on Apr 15, 2016 12:20 PM
Killa_Hertz
1076 posts
Apr 15, 2016
8:24 PM
Maybe a good addition to MTGs question is ... How do you (without hands) get a volume out of the harp, louder than is possible by simply drawing in Max air?

Ofcourse your right on both points Tuckster. The hands and internal resonance are two biggies to Tone/Volume. But what else (in your opinion) is at play?


MTG. Adam plays hard n loud. I wonder his view on the backpressure idea.
----------
 photo 1455070692138-3_zpsffgo8xxu.jpg

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 15, 2016 8:25 PM
mlefree
650 posts
Apr 16, 2016
9:24 AM
OK, no physics.*

The elements of your technique that promote good tone also promote good volume. Open airways, tongue down and out of the way, tune your airways to the frequency of the target note, etc. The idea is that when you are playing a note with good tone, you are also playing it at maximum volume.

There is another element of acoustic technique that is key to achieving maximum volume and that is your hand cup. The late British classic harmonicist and harmonica technician, Douglas Tate mentions in his book, Play the Harmonica Well," how he was able play concert halls backed by an entire orchestra totally acoustically by using effective hand cup technique.

You hamstring me by disallowing mentioning physics here, but just as you can (and should) tune your airways to the frequency of the target note, so you can with your hand cup. High notes, small cup; low notes large cup.

If you are interested in learning more about this I'll direct you to that inexpensive book.

Play The Harmonica Well

Also worth mentioning even though its OT, is his companion book, "Make Your Harmonica Work Better." That book and Blackie Shackner's "Everything you always wanted to know about chromatic harmonica" were the first books on the subject of harmonica customization. Both offer unique insights and are must reading for any serious harmonica technician.

Make Your Harmonica Work Better

Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Chromatic Harmonica

Both of these books offer much that is applicable to the diatonic harmonica as well.

Michelle

* Google "Helmholtz resonator."

----------
SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.

Last Edited by mlefree on Apr 16, 2016 9:26 AM
MindTheGap
1481 posts
Apr 16, 2016
10:17 AM
Thanks Michelle, I am interested in the projection topic. Can you this yourself? Do you have a demo? How do you (yourself) go about tuning your airways?

I looked up the book, on Amazon some of the comments are complaints that it's about posture and breathing. Sounds like just the right kind of thing.

(...then you had to go and mention the Helmholtz resonator LOL :))
Harmlessonica
227 posts
Apr 16, 2016
12:50 PM
Oddly enough, this topic seems clearer to me than the one in the beginners forum... here's an article from Pat Missin that may be of interest, he posts some audio examples also.



----------
Forum Search Direct Link
MindTheGap
1484 posts
Apr 16, 2016
1:50 PM
Excellent thank you. I listened and tried, and yes it is clearly is a thing, a sweet spot. I could get it on high notes, it rings, but nothing on much on low notes. Do you know if works on all pitches? People can't be using it all the time, as he says the sweet spot is very narrow. So the moment you open your hands or do a conventional wah, it must be lost.

EDIT: now you mention it, I do remember somebody showing me a related thing where he tried to get a shimmering effect by holding his hand a precise distance away from the harp. As I remember it was to make high notes shimmer. It wasn't massively convincing at the time, seemed like special effect, a nice extra touch.

(I guess the other thread meandered about a bit, as they do. It started with a simple question about how loud you usually play, then evolved).

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 16, 2016 1:59 PM
harpoon_man
163 posts
Apr 16, 2016
5:17 PM
Yeah, resonance is a very important factor (probably the most important factor) in achieving good / loud acoustic tone and reedplate longevity. Get the resonance right, and the notes are loud and clear, even when you are blowing (or drawing) softly. Once I got a handle on this concept, my harps started lasting 10+ years on average, as compared with a few months when I was a beginner. You don't have to blow hard to get big tone and big volume. In my experience, the internal resonance is more important than the hands, although the hands do make a difference as well.

To work toward better resonance, I have had my current student sing a note and then play it on the harp. If you can sing the note with a rich, full resonance, the mouth/throat/lung positioning helps you get it right on the harp also.
MindTheGap
1485 posts
Apr 16, 2016
10:40 PM
Thanks.

That Pat Missin example does feel like resonance - there is a clear, small sweet spot and the volume is measurably magnified. Do you find with your students that internal resonance is like that? Or is it more about shaping the sound, bringing out different harmonics? In singing, projection is about shaping the sound rather than just pure volume.

Any examples? It's only when I copied the demo I found the effect because I was listening out for the right thing.

Do you find then that of your students, good singers have better harp tone?

Even a good singer is likely to have a smaller vocal range than all the notes on a set of harps, do you find that people get better tone on harps keys and notes that match their vocal range?

The discussion is great, it's demos I'm really after.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 16, 2016 11:33 PM
MindTheGap
1486 posts
Apr 16, 2016
11:39 PM
BTW The beginner's thread discussion is stil about actual, measurable volume, I'm still interested in that.
mlefree
651 posts
Apr 17, 2016
2:31 AM
Those Tate books are little gems. He doesn't tell you what you think you want to know. He tells you what you don't even know you want to know, if you get my meaning.

I was fortunate to have had an email correspondence with Doug. He was a very kind and generous man and was delighted to have one of his readers want to follow up on various topics from his books. An extremely interesting fellow, he was also an expert on British firearm engraving, Larry Adler's harmonica technician, and the inventor of the storied Renaissance chromatic harmonica.

Doug taught me how to do the hand resonance effect. I was about to record examples when Harmlessonica posted the Pat Missin link. I hadn't seen Pat's article but as usual, if it's about harmonicas, Pat Missin knows all about it and has probably written it down and put it on his web site.

As to tuning one's airways to a target note, you need to figure this out for yourself. You have probably all tried the exercise where you explore the different tones you can get by manipulating the size (volume) and shape of your airways. If you haven't you should.

I just happen to have just viewed a recent Lee Sankey video in which he does a great job of demonstrating this general exercise as part of his Country Blues Harmonica series (the germane section starts ~6:00).

Lee Sankey's Foundational Breathing and Tone

What I am suggesting is that you try this for all the single notes, low to high, blow and draw on, say, a G or A harp. You may have to record yourself because it may be difficult to evaluate the results while you're playing the exercise.

What I think you'll find is that, in general, to get the best tone and maximum volume you will have your airways more open with the low tones than the high. You already know this intuitively if you compare your embouchure between 3-hole and 8,9, or 10 hole bends. The same effect is afoot with unbent tones as well, you probably just aren't as aware of it.

You can use this knowledge to achieve your best tone and volume -- moment to moment, from low tones to high -- in everything you play. Like any other new technique, it will take some practice to cement this into your muscle memory and make it an "automatic" or subconscious element of your playing.

They may not tell you. They may not even know they do this or be able to articulate how they do it. But I guarantee each player whose tone you admire has incorporated this into his/her playing. As I said, you should too.

Michelle

----------
SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.

Last Edited by mlefree on Apr 17, 2016 2:32 AM
Killa_Hertz
1087 posts
Apr 17, 2016
9:04 AM
All the things brought up here surely are factors. Dialing in your body to the frequency of the note, dropping your jaw and keeping your throat open, using your hands, etc.

But i thought of another thing that i think may be factor. I ve talked about it in the beginner forum. I think it isn't a seperate thing, but actually goes along with the yawn technique. The best word i can use to describe it is backpressure. Its similar to the pressure you put on the reed when trying to bend a draw bend down hard. But instead you use just the bottom of your throat, without the tongue to draw the unbent note down harder. This helps give more volume and better tone. Its a way to get the air your using to be more impactful on the reed. Instead of just sucking in more air. Your putting a pressure on it while relatively using the same amount of air.

Does this make sense to anybody?
----------
 photo 1455070692138-3_zpsffgo8xxu.jpg
MindTheGap
1488 posts
Apr 17, 2016
10:41 AM
Thanks Michelle

Linked off Pat Missin's hand resonance page, there is another page about Overtone Control which also has a demo. And Lee Sankey's idea in his vid of fat/neutral/thin tone is similar. There's no explosion of volume when they hit resonances that enhance different overtones. So that may be an answer to one of my questions.

Clearly I tweak embouchure and mouth to suit each note, and I open my throat. I might conclude that I'm doing it right already.

Anyway, I'm still interested in finding out the plain old dynamic range available.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 17, 2016 10:56 AM
WinslowYerxa
1120 posts
Apr 18, 2016
11:02 AM
A couple of points where I take issue with Michelle:

Michelle writes: "when you are playing a note with good tone, you are also playing it at maximum volume."

Not so. With good breath support, you can play with good tone at any volume. If your statement were true, playing softly would produce poor tone.

The key is to keep the entire air column in motion whether slowly and gently (soft volume) or quickly (louder volume).

Michelle writes: "tune your airways to the frequency of the target note, so you can with your hand cup. High notes, small cup; low notes large cup."

It's actually the opposite. And it's about the opening as well as the size of the cup. Low notes, small opening and small cup. High notes, big cup and big opening.

Try this:

Play Blow 10 with your hands cupped together around the harp, and moving the cupping (i.e., non-holding) hand only slightly. Listen to the volume of the note and also to the change as you move the hand.

Now, continuing to play the note, move the cupping hand out to about a foot away, Note how much louder the note gets. Try waving your hand in and out in a range of a few inches from that distance. Notice how much stronger the change in tone and volume is than when the hand was held in cup formation.

===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Apr 18, 2016 1:26 PM
WinslowYerxa
1121 posts
Apr 18, 2016
11:21 AM
Dynamic range?

I did a very quick recording of me playing Draw 4 on a Hering 1923 A-harp (the closest one to hand at the moment). I started playing as softly as a I could, crescendoed to what seemed like as loud as I could make it, then returned to soft volume. I didn't attempt to use hand resonance to add volume.

Here's the sound file.

Here's a screen shot of the complete waveform; note the peak volume:


Here's the beginning of my note, magnified to show the starting volume:


You can see that I started pretty much at zero and quickly came to a starting minimum volume of about -49dB, crescendoed to about -6dB, and then tapered back down. So a dynamic range of about 43dB.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Apr 18, 2016 4:18 PM
MindTheGap
1494 posts
Apr 18, 2016
11:53 AM
Brilliant, thank you that's just what I'm after. It is Ok if I put this on the beginner's thread for reference?

2 Draw would be a useful reference for us too, if you have time that would be great.

I can really hear those higher harmonics kick in during the loudest part. I ran it though a strong compressor to level out the amplitude and it's very strong. Excellent.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 18, 2016 12:09 PM
WinslowYerxa
1122 posts
Apr 18, 2016
1:25 PM
Sure, go ahead and post it over there.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!
barbequebob
3208 posts
Apr 19, 2016
10:10 AM
One of the biggest problems with players, especially newer players who are teaching themselves how to play is too often they're trying to force things to happen, which translates into two things that are flat out bad techniques, and that's using greater breath force and then to make matters even worse, on their draw breath, often times they're gonna be sucking their gut in, which is military style breathing which is kind of a way to make yourself look "faux ripped," but for harmonica playing as well as for singing, that is something you should NEVER do. Why?? By sucking your gut in on your draw breaths, instead of expanding your lung capacity, what you're doing is SHRINKING it DRASTICALLY and you wind up shooting yourself in the foot along the way.

I've always recommended that EVERY harp player take some time and go to a reputable vocal coach to take some breathing and relaxation exercises from them because that also applies to the harmonica as well. I know right off the bat that many of you want to go the cheapskate route and just go by You Tube videos but watching a video just isn't remotely close to what you get when you have a teacher right there in front of you and lessons on Skype for this purpose tends to be quite inadequate as well. Why? A real live teacher sitting or standing within 10 feet or less from you can closely observe everything you're doing and when you go to them for the very first time, the good ones ALWAYS checks your breathing and relaxation and 99% of the time they will often see things that 99% of the time you are GUARANTEED to miss badly and then they can point you in the right direction.

Just like vocals, harmonica needs proper breath support but when you play like the way many self taught players tend to do in the early stages (and unfortunately still do later on for quite a number of players) being physically very uptight, you kill your capacity, lose control of both the volume AND force and often quickly get winded.

Eventually from these lessons, you playing will be fuller and rounder with far less emphasis on the harsh odd numbered harmonic overtones and your playing will be much more resonant.

It's not just control with your hands, but control of everything and relaxation is a major part of it.

One exercise I remember having to do take in a draw breath as slowly as I possibly could and draw in for about as long as I could physically stand it, then hold that breath in the beginning for at least 15-30 seconds and then VERY slowly and gradually let it out until I was spent. Doing it made my diaphragm sore for a good 6 weeks but each week I did it for a longer period of time and then the soreness went away and then gradually everything became more relaxed and I got much more volume but yet I wound up using about 80% less air to do it. The vocal coach I had never stopped stressing to me while I was doing it to NEVER suck the gut in on the draw breaths or it totally defeats the purpose.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Killa_Hertz
1109 posts
Apr 19, 2016
12:14 PM
NICE BOB!

Thanks.

Anyone else had similar experiences?

Im still a pretty new player. I can get some real good tone out of the harp at times. (Good Tone For Me Anyways) And other times I go on a Run of just getting complete shit. Well not that bad, but nothing to write home about for sure.

So I would be willing to bet that it has something to do with my relaxation and breathing at the time of playing. Very interesting. I am finding that projecting the note as if singing it will make the tone much better.

Hearing your description of sucking the Gut in and how NOT to do that. Reminds me of an exercise I heard of from Ronnie Shellist, I believe, Who heard it from JP Allen. Lay on your back on the ground and practice breathing while allowing your gut to push out. Diaphragm Breathing.
----------
 photo 1455070692138-3_zpsffgo8xxu.jpg

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 19, 2016 12:40 PM
barbequebob
3209 posts
Apr 20, 2016
9:20 AM
@Killa_Hertz --- That exercise you mentioned in your last post was also an exercise that I had from a vocal coach as well and it's a very useful one for both vocals and harmonica.

When I was teaching, many self taught players (actually about 80-95% of them) usually played too hard and often times kept sucking their gut in while doing the draw breaths and they don't realize that by doing that, they're just shooting themselves in the foot 24/7 because they're making things needlessly more difficult for themselves. Doing that is, again, military style breathing like when you're in boot camp and the drill sargent tells you to fall in line and that's what they want you to do to make yourself look more ripped and macho, but again, for vocals as well as harmonica, it's the flat out dumbest thing to do and accomplishes nothing.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Killa_Hertz
1112 posts
Apr 20, 2016
9:58 AM
Yea i spent a good amount of time chasing the Tone Demon. Months. I found alot of helpful things like this excersise. It still is going to take alot more practice and honing to really get a Great Tone. But i did improve my tone quality about 10 fold with the right guidance in what to focus on. Volume also increased a good bit.


I had a very nasaly weak sound in the beginning. Now, while still not great, its atleast worthy of being called Tone.

I was very interested to hear about your excersises for the diaphragm. That you actually stretched it and worked it out. Maybe that's where some of the secret, that MTG is looking for, lies.

How much did it up your tone, volume, and breathing capacity?
----------
 photo 1455070692138-3_zpsffgo8xxu.jpg
barbequebob
3210 posts
Apr 20, 2016
10:57 AM
Taking the lessons from a vocal coach upped the game easily ten fold for me and it allowed me to have my also last years longer as well.

One breathing exercise that was helpful was similar to one I previously mentioned but I had to "hiss out" the breath SUPER SUPER SUPER slowly until I was spent and damned near exhausted and it forced me to use the diaphragm and most people never really use it much for anything. There was another variation of that where you went to a keyboard or fretted instrument and then do it totally on key and another where you started it out while being with a keyboard or fretted instrument and start at the lowest possible note where your vocals were at the time and then go an octave higher and then doing this in reverse, and as you do it farther on the line, go chromatically upward from where you started. For example, I had to start at C one octave below middle C on a piano, then the next time around from C# an octave below middle C on the piano, and so on until I hit the very top of my range and then try doing it using a falsetto voice. Trust me, within an hour, you'll feel pretty spent doing it but everything will improve pretty dramatically as soon as a good 6 weeks.

The more you do these things, the less reliant you'll be on gear for anything and don't be surprised to find yourself laughing at all the gear heads who think that gear is the only way they get good tone once you begin doing things like what I've mentioned.

Now it's gonna be pretty obvious this is gonna be some hard, physical work but if you want to really get good at anything, there are no such things as short cuts.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Killa_Hertz
1115 posts
Apr 20, 2016
11:36 AM
Nice Bob!

Yes i know what you mean. Im actually a bit worn out on the "amplified sound". It kinda all blends together after a while. Recently I find myself really listening more to SBW II, Walter Horton, Wolf, those guys that can just twist the harp inside out and shape it in these amazing ways. Its often agonizing listening to it because im so Envious of their sound.

Those guys who can really get all the grit n dirt, and mix it with the sweet, all while playing acoustically. They just amaze me.


Im really interested in looking into what your talking about here. Makes alot of sense.
----------
 photo 1455070692138-3_zpsffgo8xxu.jpg


Post a Message



(8192 Characters Left)


Modern Blues Harmonica supports

§The Jazz Foundation of America

and

§The Innocence Project

 

 

 

ADAM GUSSOW is an official endorser for HOHNER HARMONICAS