MP
3341 posts
Feb 06, 2016
3:54 PM
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My Gregorie Maret Chromatic had a few valves that buzzed.
My girlfriend had bought me a box soft oatmeal cookies from Walmart.
This box had a clear plastic window. It [the plastic on the window] looked like good valve material. I had my travel repair kit, some very sharp scissors, and a tube of glue left over from fixing a knob on the dash of the car.
I cut, glued, and waited a bit. Then I tried the harp. This clear plastic, beat the heck out of my Hohner valves. In fact, these are the best valves I've ever used.
The plastic is very stiff and doesn't look prone to curling.
Also, it is super flat and seals the slots like a charm.
I did about three or four valves cuz I broke at least one when my hand slipped. I may do the entire harp and my other chroms w/ cookie box plastic from Walmart.
The only drawback is that since they are clear, they are hard to see. I marked the seat ends w/ a Magic Marker so I could see them. Otherwise, if you lose one....forget it. :-)
PS I did this all on my lap in the drivers seat of a Buick sedan.
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Have good day. M.A.P.
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Last Edited by MP on Feb 06, 2016 3:57 PM
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Crawforde
62 posts
Feb 06, 2016
4:04 PM
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Sounds great.
How long have they been in?
I have an old chrometta I got for a song that is now playable and tuned and ready for valves.
I feel a craving for oatmeal cookies . :)
On a similar note, I lost bumpers of my chromatic while cleaning once, and some wire insulation stripped off of copper wire works. Silicone peristaltic pump tubing works too.
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Brendan Power
501 posts
Feb 06, 2016
10:21 PM
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Interesting, MP. I'm somewhat obsessed with trying different materials for valves, aiming to find the perfect stuff.
Clear valves are the best, because you can see exactly how centred the valve is. Also they look cool, because it almost seems they are invisible and the harp has no valves.
One piece is ideal. What glue did you use for the plastic? It seems it wasn't Polypropylene or Polyethylene, as they are very hard to stick.
Textured is preferable to slick-surfaced. If they are slick I'd be concerned that on a cool day condensation will cause them to stick, especially on the outside of the upper reedplate.
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Feb 06, 2016 10:22 PM
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Mojokane
853 posts
Feb 07, 2016
12:22 AM
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living in your car again, I see.
Hey, I always have a spare bed to crash on (call first).
...pass the cookies.
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Yes, there are blues in Hawaii.
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MP
3342 posts
Feb 07, 2016
5:40 PM
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@ Brendan et al-
You are right Mr. Power. Being transparent, one can center the valve w/ precision. I like precision. :-)
I don't know what kind of glue it is. It is not Super Glue, or that stuff that cracks, or that stuff that turns too rubbery. It's just some stuff I bought o fix my reading/harp fixing glasses. I'll un-roll the tube and look at it.
I imagine some valves are textured so as to prevent sticking.
I slid the valves into the drop of glue rather than place them atop the drop and risk the ski jump effect. They are indeed invisible. So are the cookies as of a long while ago.
Since it's a cookie box window and has suffered all kinds of abuse, you have to choose a piece that isn't dented or creased. This is easy to do. Valves are very small and the window fairly large in comparison.
The plastic is not textured but the seal is great. I have never understood the reason for doubling the plastic w/ paper.
It has been cool.... for Hawaii. I have zero problems w/ sticking.
At Mojo Kane. Thanks, you are too kind. but nooooo thank you. I'm doing just fine. Heh, heh, :-) You come to very imaginative conclusions, Kev.
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Have good day. M.A.P.
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Last Edited by MP on Feb 07, 2016 6:32 PM
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mlefree
551 posts
Feb 07, 2016
8:37 PM
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I too have tried a bunch of different valve materials and ways to apply them. I ended up throwing my hands up in frustration (due to some combination of the problems listed below) and buying some Hohner valves. Though my pocketbook was lighter, I was able to get back to playing.
All I can say, MP, is that if you have hit on a material that: 1) is stiff enough to work on both sides of the reed plates to be unaffected by gravity); 2) rigid enough not to flop around inside reed chambers causing a range of associated odd noises and poor valve performance; 3) pliable enough to open easily so as to permit free air flow, 4) won't stick to the reed plates with condensation as Brendan suggests; 5) won't curl up, down, or radially under normal, careful use; and 6) is inexpensive and readily available, you are a very fortunate fellow indeed.
Do you happen to play the lottery? ;^) (tongue in cheek)
And Brendan, I wonder if you would mind sharing a few tidbits of your own chromatic valve Odyssey?
Most of my more successful attempts involve stiffening Ultrasuede with lacquer, polyurethane, stiff 2nd layers, etc. Unfortunately, they sooner or later fell prey to some combination of the above problems just like all the rest of my valvular inventions.
Thanks.
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 07, 2016 8:38 PM
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MP
3343 posts
Feb 08, 2016
3:09 PM
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Pure Luck, mlefree, pure luck.
I just looked at the type of glue it is and forgot it's name and description. It is just a little black tube that is all purpose and says it will not harden and crack. I got it from CVS. It dries very fast and is liquid enough to slide the valve into it w/out a problem.
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Have good day. M.A.P.
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chromaticblues
1749 posts
Feb 10, 2016
6:57 PM
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MP what is going to happen is in a couple months the valves are going to start sticking. This is THE conundrum of Chromatic valves. A flat stiff material that doesn't interfere with the reed will seal better and the tone will have a more compressed diatonic type sound. Problem is it won't last without problems. They will start sticking fairly quickly. Now if you use something like the new Hohner valves they don't seal as tight, but don't have problems for a long time.
What is better?? I don't know! I do like the new Hohner valves!
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Chris L
101 posts
Feb 10, 2016
7:26 PM
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I wrecked a valve in my Sub 30 while gapping and embossing, and tried replacing it with a metal valve cut (with sizzors) from one of those security tag .001 inch shims. It buzzed, so I added 3M Micropore tape to the closing side. So far it is working OK as a metal/micropore valve.
Granted, it has only been a few weeks, and I can't say I have spent more than a couple of hours playing the Sub 30, so I can't speak to the long term functionality.
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mlefree
565 posts
Feb 11, 2016
2:15 AM
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I like that idea a lot, Chris L!
As I say, I've been trying to stiffen Ultrasuede. You may have hit on the perfect way to do that. US is well-suited to valving a diatonic but it's too floppy for chromatics as is.
Two quick questions. Those security tag strips are convex across their short axis. Which side do you have facing the reed plate and why? What glue did you use?
Thanks,
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
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MP
3344 posts
Feb 11, 2016
8:13 PM
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Howzit Kevin B. aka chromaticblues! I believe you when you say i'll have problems down the line. You da man and valves are always a pain. I won't even work on chromatics because you have reeds AND valves on both sides of one reed plate. This is just a recepie for disaster on the bench. It is sooooo easy for me to ruin a valve.
I hope I don't have trouble because these valves are really working out nicely. I've noticed the seal is so tight the reeds affected by the valves are a bit louder. C yah.
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Have good day. M.A.P.
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Thievin' Heathen
678 posts
Feb 11, 2016
8:22 PM
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Well, I went out and bought some Wally Cookies anyway. I think I will try sanding 1 side(the down side) of the plastic with 1500 grit.
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chromaticblues
1750 posts
Feb 12, 2016
10:16 AM
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@ Thievin' Yeah it's a catch 22 situation. If you sand it you'll reduce the problem with them sticking, but you'll lose what MP was describing. The harp will be louder and easier to play with valves that COMPLETELY seal. Heay hopefully MP just stumbled onto the miracle material?
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Chris L
103 posts
Feb 17, 2016
9:22 PM
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@Michelle: Sorry not to respond more quickly. I can't claim any expertise regarding valves, as I am just a do-it-yourself dabbler who likes to experiment. Regarding your questions, I put the concave side of the metal strip against the reed plate based on the hypothesis that a concave surface will be drawn flat, although I can't say whether there would be much effect on a valve only about 3mm wide. Fortunately the broken valve left enough working adhesive on the reed plate, so I used that and reinforced it with a strip of gaffer's tape. I have no idea what would be the best adhesive. I just got lucky with the existing goop! Brendan Power might know what Suzuki uses. Whatever it is, it adheres like a dream even after the first plastic valve was buckled and torn off.
In my previous experience with valving I have only used Gaffer tape, as suggested by Isaac Ullah from this site. I adapted his idea by backing the gaffer tape with Micropore. One idea leads to another, I guess.
I would be curious about whether others have success with the steel-micropore valve. It definitely has flex and elasticity similar to stiff plastic. I don't think there will be significant galvanic activity between the steel and brass, but I am a little concerned about rust in the long term. Possibly brass shim stock would be better but I don't have the tools to cut that without deforming it.
If this leads to any interesting ideas, Michelle, put the outcomes up on the site. All the best!
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Gnarly
1665 posts
Feb 17, 2016
11:35 PM
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http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5491613.htm
Cookie box valves failed.
Big surprise.
Goddam valves anyway.
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mlefree
581 posts
Feb 18, 2016
5:28 AM
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Thanks for getting back, Chris.
In terms of one idea leading to another, they made old chromos with leather valves that were reinforced by everything from pig hairs to actual tiny springs.
I don't have any valve-related issues at the moment but as usual I know they're not far off. I'm not real happy with Hohner's new valves so when I do need to replace one I'll give your idea a try.
Thanks,
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 18, 2016 5:29 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
688 posts
Feb 18, 2016
6:45 AM
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Michelle,
With your connections in the leather world, have you had any luck finding any leather as thin as Hohner used in the old days?
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Thievin' Heathen
689 posts
Feb 18, 2016
6:46 AM
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Ooops, double post.
Now I know how that happens.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Feb 18, 2016 6:47 AM
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mlefree
584 posts
Feb 18, 2016
9:50 AM
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Theavin', that's a loaded question.
It's not just the thickness that is important with leather. Leathers, even very thin leathers, vary widely in terms of their stiffness or floppiness, resilience and surface properties.
Apparently, from what I've read, vintage leather valves are surprisingly thick. The thinner the leather, the more they tend to curl both along their length and across their width. Knowing leather as I do, the thickness can contribute heavily to the stiffness.
Leather valves are applied with the rougher flesh side out, leaving the smoother side toward the reed plate. There are a myriad of different finishes applied to leather at the manufacturer, ranging from patent leather smooth to a pebbled texture. I would imagine that a somewhat textured finish would help eliminate valve "popping." It would take a good deal of experimentation to hit on a happy medium.
Accordions that use leather valves use goat skin. I have a beautiful Irish Bodhran (frame drum) with a rawhide goatskin head. It has just the right stiffness but it is highly affected by moisture, even changing tone markedly with changes in humidity. If it could be waterproofed I think it would be a very good candidate for valves. I'm not going to cut it up to find out.
Unfortunately the maker lives in Europe, but I'm sure I could get him to send me a sample from his pile of trimmings. If your curiosity extends to wanting to experiment with some I'll drop him a line. I don't know where you live but you may have a Bohdran maker near by. Or you may know a drummer who could donate a split head to the cause.
I'm personally more intrigued by Chris' idea of reinforcing Ultrasuede. I suspect there are very good reasons for manufacturers abandoning leather as valve material.
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 18, 2016 9:53 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
690 posts
Feb 19, 2016
10:14 AM
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Michelle,
I have acquired several old Hohner Auto-Valves and the leather valves are paper thin. I suspect you are 100% correct on their reasons for abandoning leather valves. I quick look into the back side of any (original) vintage chromatic will reveal leather valves flying like pennants.
It just strikes me as unusual that in this time of such abundant fabric and textile diversity that the shade tree harmonica mechanics must lay out +$40 for OEM valves. The quest continues, but it is mighty time consuming.
Old drum heads might have potential.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Feb 19, 2016 10:15 AM
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