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Killa_Hertz
457 posts
Feb 06, 2016
9:29 AM
Hi all. I'm looking to start getting real in depth with new positions, scales, and theory. All things i skipped in the beginning.

Specifically i want to learn 3rd position. But i also want to learn more about theory and making proper note choices so i can really understand why to play each note. I don't want anything with real heavy theory. Just what's needed to truly understand the harp. why one note is better than another in a certain situations. Understanding chords and things of that nature. I know the basics of theory. So i don't want anything super beginner.

Can anyone recommend a good book or lesson? I was looking at Xerxas Harp for dummies, but I'm not sure if it's just got general info or not. I want something relatively in depth. Something with lessons also. Exercises to practice.

Thanks
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 06, 2016 9:31 AM
Thievin' Heathen
672 posts
Feb 06, 2016
9:48 AM
Don't overlook this resource...,
http://www.bluesharmonica.com/home
Kingley
4001 posts
Feb 06, 2016
10:05 AM
One of the books every harmonica player should own in my opinion, is Steve Bakers Harp Handbook. It's filled with essential information on tunings, scales, players, exercises and much more. If you don't own it already, I'd say order it today. It's worth more than it's weight in gold.
Kingley
4002 posts
Feb 06, 2016
10:48 AM
Maybe one on one lessons or a good theory book might be a better choice if you want to specifically work on 3rd position. Other than that just listen to lots of recordings with players using 3rd and you'll pick up a lot of stuff that way too
Killa_Hertz
459 posts
Feb 06, 2016
10:59 AM
I do want to specifically work on 3rd, but i think the theory can go hand in hand. While also making my understanding of 2nd and the harp in general much better. I mean learning the scale and some licks is just the minimum. I want to be able to really know it to the point where i know what notes will work without even hearing them. SuperBee was kind enough to give me a pretty good general run down. So i kind of have an idea what i want to learn now and what direction to go. I just have to find a resource.

Dave Barrett site does have lots of info. But for some reason it just doesnt do it for me. The structure is a little wierd the way is set up. It just feels so slow. Actually it's his brithday today. So says his facebook.

I'll check out that book. Ive heard it mentioned before. Thanks
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 06, 2016 11:22 AM
schaef60
13 posts
Feb 06, 2016
12:09 PM
You seem to be all over the place on what you want to learn. Barrett's site is the very best you will find for blues harp. If you think it to slow,maybe that's what you need.
Harp Study
176 posts
Feb 06, 2016
12:41 PM
David Barret also has some great books. Exploring 3rd position is a great way to break into third position in my opinion. He also has a Harmonica technique book that I like very much. The harmonica for dummies book also has ton of information. And as Kingley said, Steve Bakers harp handbook is great also. I am no expert at third and I am currently working on playing more on that position in attempt to become more proficient. I try to listen to lots of playing in that position and am working on David's book.
Killa_Hertz
461 posts
Feb 06, 2016
1:09 PM
Lol. Schaef ... i respectfully disagree. Slow is not gong to hold my attention. And the way his site is setup is very academic and structured. It's just not how i learn. I'm not doggin it. I'm just saying is not my style. I do use it once in a while. And i don't see how that's all over the place. It kinda all ties together really.


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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
schaef60
14 posts
Feb 06, 2016
1:37 PM
Do your thing bro!
nacoran
8921 posts
Feb 06, 2016
1:48 PM
Buy a cheap keyboard. It is much, much, much easier to visualize scales on a piano. That and some charts that show you the different scales and count them out on the piano to see the patterns and it's very likely you'll have an ah ha moment very early on that will give you, if not functional command of the scales at least an understanding of the 'why' part of the equation.

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Ian
287 posts
Feb 06, 2016
2:00 PM
Winslow books are definitely worth it. There is a tonne of info in his blues harmonica for dummies.

I prefer David barrets books to his website, I think I know what you mean about the structure. Its a little old fashioned in its layout imo. His books are more concise although the layout is again a little weird.
Killa_Hertz
463 posts
Feb 06, 2016
2:02 PM
Thanks Nacoran. Dave Barret says the same thing. And alot of his lessons are explained via piano. I'm sure i can find a cheapo at the flea market. Ill do that thanks.

Edit : Thanks ian. Are the dummies books just basic tho? It seems like they dont go very far past begginer



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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 06, 2016 2:12 PM
Killa_Hertz
464 posts
Feb 06, 2016
2:09 PM
Has anyone tried Howard Levys lessons on ArtistWorks?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
A440
515 posts
Feb 06, 2016
2:55 PM
I agree with @nacoran. Keyboard is a great learning tool. I got a Melodica, which is a lot of fun. Also inexpensive and portable.

Last Edited by A440 on Feb 06, 2016 3:09 PM
Ian
290 posts
Feb 06, 2016
4:35 PM
@Killa. Not so much.
Its got chapters like....
Accelerating the blues with third position.
Playing blues in minor keys.
Non 12 bar blues
Etc etc....
There is basic stuff of course. You could probably skim read the first few chapters but there are some real gems in there.
Its a good reference if nothing else.
Killa_Hertz
468 posts
Feb 06, 2016
5:57 PM
The one thing i can't find out. Is there anything in the regular dummies book that's not in the blues version? I'm about to get them both just so i don't miss anything.

Im ordering dave barrets 3rd position book aswell.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 06, 2016 6:17 PM
hvyj
2934 posts
Feb 06, 2016
6:33 PM
The type of book you are looking for hasn't been written. Harmonica instruction materials tend to be ad hoc in nature. I've never seen anything that correlates interrelationships between positions/ scales/ modes/ chords in a comprehensive coherent manner. You need to pick up info re: the interrelationships from knowledgable musicians and then figure out how it applies to harp yourself. What is helpful to that effort are diagrams illustrating what notes (by letter names) are in each hiole of each harmonicas in each of the 12 keys. Suzuki World Class Harmonicas has diagrams like that on their web site.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 06, 2016 6:36 PM
A440
517 posts
Feb 06, 2016
9:15 PM
There is a free iphone app that is helpful, called Harp Key, by Charles Reina. It is very useful for learning and correlating notes/scales/positions. Its laid out like your harp, with all the notes named, including bends and overblows. Plus you can tap it and hear the notes. So its a good tool to accompany a book on theory.

Last Edited by A440 on Feb 06, 2016 9:25 PM
hvyj
2935 posts
Feb 07, 2016
3:23 AM
Yes, HARP KEY gives you the note layout diagrams for all 12 keys.l and is a handy reference.

Barrett's materials are very good as far as they go--which is not all that far. There are tidbits of the sort of info you are after (like, for example, a very brief discussion of extension tones in one of his books), but nothing comprehensive. IMHO, understanding extension tones really helps unlock playing the whole harp in a musically coherent way in multiple positions. Dave, for better or for worse, panders to the blues nazis. But his stuff is very sound as far as it does go.

Several years ago I picked up a Yamaha electric piano on sale from Musicians Friend for $99. The real piano sound on it is incredibly realistic. Very useful tool for what u are trying to do.

A lot of what you are after comes from changing the way you think about your approach to the instrument. Don't think licks or positions. Think scales/modes and arpeggios. Learn to spell your scales in all 12 keys. Thinking SCALES makes multiple position playing easy.

So many harp players think in terms of what I call artifacts. They know a lick or technique/sound effect that sounds good on harp. So, when they play they focus on ways to string such artifacts together or how to gracefully get from one such artifact to another. That's ok, I guess, but limiting. Stop playing your harmonica like a harmonica and start thinking about using it as a musical instrument to play NOTES. What notes? Well, start with different types of scales. Say, the harmonic minor scale for example. That's so easy to play in certain registers using 4th and 5th positions, that you will regard those positions EASIER to play than 2d position--for harmonic minor, anyway--assuming you are not limiting yourself by looking for ways to play artifacts.

Btw.You won't get there by studying the ODBGs, either. That may certainly help you build technique. But what u are after goes well beyond that. For a while MBH was dominated by some who were devoted to the notion that it is simply not possible to improve on what the ODBGs did, and any suggestion that there were other musically sound conceptual approaches to playing the harmonica provoked vitriolic hostility. That's when MBH stopped being fun for me and I took a hiatus. But, at least for now, it appears that we are permitted discuss such previously taboo subjects without reprisals.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 07, 2016 8:11 AM
MindTheGap
1120 posts
Feb 07, 2016
4:09 AM
We've been here before, but I think those David Harp books 'Blues & Rock Harp Positions Made Easy (Harmonica)' and 'Music Theory Made Easy (Reference)', even if they are not the full answer, ought to be a good start. I mean in response to your specific questions.

I don't have either of them, but just from the contents they look right for this. One discusses all the positions, and the other covers major/minor/pentatonic scales and creating chords major/minor/7th. All very applicable to harmonica.

I've got plenty of books, but I don't have anything that brings things together like these appear to.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 07, 2016 4:15 AM
Killa_Hertz
469 posts
Feb 07, 2016
7:02 AM
Thanks yall. I didn't get the answer i wanted. But i guess, atleast i got the one i needed. Do the legwork on your own. Lol. Thanks ... Really. Atleast i have an idea what im up against. And a place to start.

I know the 2nd pos blues scale. So i know how scales help. I skipped over most of this in the beggining. Because it's kinda boring at first, but now i know i need them. I think you described basically where I'm at with the artifacts. That's kinda how i feel. I know enough to tie solid parts together. But as you say its quite limiting. I want to know all the scales etc inside and out. There s just so many scales n modes its overwhelming and enough to make your head spin.

I also have had that app for quite a while. It's a great tool. I use it most for tuning. As a reference. I never really studied it. That's good advice.

I don't mean to dog Daves site btw. I do use sections of it from time to time. But I just don't think it delves deep enough on certain subjects. Its also very structured (feels like homework) And im not a structured learner. I just have to learn my own way. Much respect for Dave Barret.

I guess i just thought there was a holy grail somewhere. So thanks for tell me how it is. Imma go buy me a flea market keyboard now. 8^)>

Btw. Has anyone tried Howard Levys lessons on ArtistWorks.com? I learn better with video than with reading. They look decent, but if it's going to just be a minor touch and intro to everything like the other lessons. I dont wanna waste my time (and money)

Thanks Again Yall. Really Appreciate The Advice.

(If anyone has any more, my ears are open. Or eyes i suppose.)

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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
hvyj
2936 posts
Feb 07, 2016
8:07 AM
I have a lot of respect for what you are trying to do. I think it's cool that you are asking these sorts of questions.

FWIW, here's a couple of things you can do to jumpstart the process: Learn the major pentatonic scale in second position and practice running it through the registers. Good excercise, relatively easy and extremely useful.

Learn what degree of the scale (in numbers) each hole and each bend is in each position that you play or want to play. For example, 10 blow full step bend in 1st position = 7b / in 2d position = 3b / in 3d position = 6b / in 4th position = 2b / in 5th position = 5b / in 12th position = 4.

Now, if you think in terms of degrees of the scale, anything you learn on one Richter tuned harp can be immediately transposed to any other Richter tuned harp in any of the 12 keys. Then, it's just a matter of learning the letter names of the notes which is done by learning to spell your scales.

And, btw, you don't need to learn every imaginable scale. Blues scale, major blues scale, major scale (a/k/a Ionian mode), natural (a/k/a Aeolean mode) and harmonic minor scales, major and minor pentatonic scales, Dorian, Phrygian and Mixolydian modes are plenty and enough to give you adequate working vocabulary. If you don't OB (I don't) all of these scales are not available in all positions which is, of course, why we use multiple positions.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 07, 2016 8:34 AM
timeistight
1925 posts
Feb 07, 2016
8:32 AM
Levy's site is good for teaching all the positions and learning a wide variety of tunes, not just blues. If you go through all the lessons, you'll learn a lot.

I'm not sure what you mean when you want to learn "all the scales": all which scales?
Blowhead9
58 posts
Feb 07, 2016
8:33 AM
Why not just learn basic theory and be done with it? It applies to any instrument including harp. I suggest this nice thin little book here, which explains scales and modes, chord construction, etc... It's not brain surgery. http://www.amazon.com/The-Jazz-Language-Composition-Improvisation/dp/0760400148
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For every moment of triumph, every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled. HST
hvyj
2937 posts
Feb 07, 2016
8:52 AM
Yeah, it's hard to distinguish learning theory and learning what you want to do. However, the study of counter point harmony, secondary dominants and other advanced theory really doesn't advance the ball towards your objectives. Basic theory should be enough. And, like the man says, it ain't brain surgery.

But while you are at it, it's valuable to learn the lingo. True story: couple of weeks ago I was invited to sit in for the whole night on a jazz gig at a hard core jazz venue. I was enormously flattered, and, quite frankly, considered this to be an uncomfortably ambitious undertaking. As it turned out, I did fine and made only 2 major mistakes all night, but, of course, I laid out quite a bit. Anyway, at one point, the band leader calls a tune, gives the key and as soon as we start says "pedal on the A". What does that mean? For one thing, you damn well better know where A is on the harp you are using. Pedal means pedal point, which is a sustained tone like holding down an organ pedal. You will look stupid and sound incompetent if you don't know enough terminology to understand what other musicians are telling you on the fly. As an aside, I find it hilarious that some of these instructional sites devote so much time and effort to instructing musical illiterates on how to give hand signals to lead a band on stage. But, I digress....

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 07, 2016 9:00 AM
dougharps
1152 posts
Feb 07, 2016
9:03 AM
This may be unnecessary to state, but I will say it anyway. Sorry about the caps, they seemed to be needed as I wrote.

I am a believer in learning theory and learning to play different positions and different scales. Books, DVDs, CDs, and internet resources can be wonderful tools. In today's world, maybe apps, too! Theory and scales are useful information to improve musical performance. Leaning about chord structure is important, too. I believe in life long learning.

However...

If you want to play music... and have the music flow:

Reading books and learning theory and scales will not in themselves help you make the music you want. If you buy 30 books and read and memorize them all, it does not assure that you will improve your playing.

Theory and scales are useless if you don't put them to practical use on the instrument while making music. If your goal is to PLAY and you don't want to limit yourself to just talking about theory, positions, or playing scales, you need to woodshed by DOING. That means you cannot settle for just knowing scales in different positions.

You need to develop your ear until you recognize without thinking what notes are needed to play over the changes as the music is in progress, in the moment. You need to develop muscle memory in order to play those notes without thinking about which hole, blow or draw, is which degree of which scale on which key of harp needed at that moment.

You need the theory/scale/position information to pick the harp you think will work best for you with the music, orient yourself to the scale on that instrument in that position, and then MAKE MUSIC. Intellectual analysis can help, but then you just have to PLAY THE THING.

If you don't educate your ear over and over and over by listening a LOT to the music you want to play, and you don't learn to make music in the moment by playing over various chord progressions over and over and over, you will not progress, your music will not flow, and you will limit yourself musically.

Scales and theory are intellectual abstractions until applied to playing musically over changes. There is a time for thinking to learn about music, and a time for listening and playing to learn. Listening and playing, over and over and over!

It is good to learn and be able to communicate with other musicians verbally. It is good to understand what is going on in the structure of the music we want to play. Education is important in music. But education includes training your ear and building your skills.

We need to remember that the purpose of all this is to make music, not learn to talk about it.
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Doug S.
timeistight
1926 posts
Feb 07, 2016
9:03 AM
Here's a post where Todd Parrott tabs out the major and blues scales in twelve positions: TABS - Scales in all 12 keys

Once you've learned those, the major and minor pentatonic scales are easy, just a matter of leaving out notes from the scales you already know.

Then learn chords. Start with triads. There are only four types of triad: major, minor, diminished and augmented. That means there are only 48 triads to learn altogether.

Then learn the seventh chords. They're built on the triads, so they aren't too hard to figure out.

Next comes the extensions: 9th, 11th and 13th chords.

Once you've got all that, then you might want to learn some exotic scales.

Last Edited by timeistight on Feb 07, 2016 9:11 AM
timeistight
1927 posts
Feb 07, 2016
9:14 AM
Secondary dominants are easy and once you learn how they work, lots of chord progressions make more sense.
hvyj
2938 posts
Feb 07, 2016
9:18 AM
I think TiT is recommending learning arpeggios (chords played one note at a time) since we can't "build" chords on the harmonica. Excellent advice.

If one has a good enough ear, the guidance provided by theory is of less importance. But in any event, you have to get out and play with other musicians in order to develop. No matter how much you know/learn if you can't make something interesting come out of your instrument, what's the point???

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 07, 2016 9:37 AM
WinslowYerxa
1064 posts
Feb 07, 2016
9:29 AM
Thanks for the mentions of Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition (HFD) and Blues Harmonica For Dummies (BHFD).

Each book is nearly 400 pages long and goes far beyond beginner level. In addition, HFD has extensive video, animation and audio available online, while BHFD has a 93-track CD with guitarist Rusty Zinn (Mark Hummel, Kim Wilson) playing on the backing tracks, with harmonica in the right channel so you can mute it and play along with Rusty.

The Dummies philosophy is that anyone can pick up a For Dummies(tm) book and start reading anywhere in the book and understand what they're reading - the content is "modular." The author assumes nothing about what knowledge the reader brings to the book or where they want to begin.

It's unfortunate but hardly surprising that people often think that "For Dummies" means simplistic or for beginners *only*. In both books I made a point of including information that will take a player well into the intermediate range. People often characterize these as reference books that will stay in their go-to rotation for a long time.

I cover a lot of ground in both books, so can't go into as much detail as I'd like in every area - that would make each book a good 800 pages or more. Instead I give you the tools you need to develop the core skills. Working them out in detail and applying them is a matter of personal preference anyway.

I'd be glad to go into more detail about the benefits each book offers and what distinguishes one from another, but I just wanted to make a few key points in this post.
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Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Feb 07, 2016 9:49 AM
timeistight
1928 posts
Feb 07, 2016
9:47 AM
It's good to learn to play arpeggios, but what I think is really important is learning to spell chords. The ultimate goal is to know how the notes you are playing relate to the chord you are playing them over.
WinslowYerxa
1065 posts
Feb 07, 2016
10:00 AM
Agree with timeistight. This is one of the first things I did as I was learning to play. I mapped out all the notes on all keys of harp (no books did this back then) - harmonica specific knowledge.

Then I learned information that applies to all music: what notes were in what chords and scales, and how chords connected to each other in chord progressions; how groups of chords add up to scales, and how scales are source material for chords.

Just as important is understanding relationships among notes and chords - like I, IV, and V - concepts that apply to all keys. Understanding relationships makes the alphabet soup of note names and patterns much less overwhelming - if you understand the structures, you can just plug in the applicable note names. This makes learning far less daunting.

Once you get a little musical knowledge - and learning it a little at a time can make is more digestible - you ca start applying it to the harmonica.

A couple of harmonica players have come out with books of scales for harmonica. While it's great that they've done that, for me it's more important to work it out for yourself. That way you really learn it. The musical knowledge is easily available. If you then take it and find those notes and patterns in the harmonica, you get to know it far better than if you just look it up.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Feb 07, 2016 10:02 AM
JustFuya
843 posts
Feb 07, 2016
10:24 AM
There is no need to disparage any teaching approach. So many options. It's all in the learning.
Killa_Hertz
472 posts
Feb 07, 2016
12:37 PM
Thanks again everyone.
I know it's not rocket surgery, but it's still alot of information. I fully understand i have to commit it to muscle memory. That's a given. But commit what to muscle memory is the question. I listen to music literally all day long. So no problem there. I haven't even been playing a whole year yet. So I haven't had a ton of time to digest all this info. But im trying to take my knowledge to the next level.

I already bought a keyboard. A yamaha YPT-300. $35 at the flea market. Is seems to be a really nice keyboard. Shouldn't have a problem getting my money back if i sell it.

I don't mess around. I dont practice everyday for Nothin. I'm tryin to learn everything i can. Its just there is so much out there to learn i didn't know where to start and what was/wasnt essential.

That's good advice to practice with musicians. I haven't really gotten there yet. But I do play with jam tracks and Ive worked out how to play quite a few songs. SBW II, Ronnie Shellist, etc.
I ve gone thru almost all of Adams tradebit videos. Aswell as alot of his and others youtube videos.

Mr.Yerxa I appreciate your input here. I decided that your books are inexpensive enough in the grand scheme of things. I just bought them both. 8^)>

Thanks i really do appreciate all the help yall.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
snowman
135 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:15 PM
I have so many books---1 Steve bakers book----2 harmonica for dummies—3 Tom balls book—4 Charlie muscle whites—===I have most of them---I also have many Instructional cds,dvds----most all of them---as far as playing , by far the one that helped me most was Jerry Portnoire 3 cd and book---finally someone explained syncopating back beats, whether u toungue block with syncopating or w/out tongue block--- also split tounge octaves etc ---he explains everything---BUT WHAT HELPED ME WITH THEORY WAS TO MEMORIZE WHERE THE NOTES ARE ON THE HARP --- where is the root note where is the 2/9 note ----3 note b3 note etc --- to learn the repetitive patterns of notes on the harp in each position ----playing in first position for example -- the top notes repeat 135 135 135 1 ---etc etc learn the bottom as well—learn the notes on the harp, in each position—memorize it---- it took me over thirty years to get motivated to do it----I wish Id done it sooner—I learned in a minor song in cross harp [avoid 3draw] [avoid 6 draw] a major 3 in a minor song, sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard----etc etc--- I also learned more importantly where to end a run ---On the root note or the 5 of the root note---etc etc--- but in my opinion memorizing the notes and patterns on the harp is crucial---I made my own charts, for each position==== theory will screw up your playing for a while [thinking too much, not enough from the heart] but eventually you just know the theory and go back to playing from the gut---every guy Ive heard, that learned no theory, cuz its not there thing –reached a level and never went further—when the leader says 145 key of D no quick change--- starting from 5----Its really calming to know w/out hesitation what is going on--- try to to learn 6 2 5 1 turn ---learn where the 1 note, 2/9 note 6 note., 5 note are--- learn octave splits of the one, four and five chord and 6 chord ----u can play rhythm w/out being obnoxious--- u can accompany not just play lead-=good luck I love this forum---I learn a ton
Killa_Hertz
476 posts
Feb 07, 2016
2:56 PM
Snowman thanks. That's what i want. When i hear people talk about technical note stuff .. i go all deer in the headlights. I want to know without question where they are at n what's Goin on. I want to be efficient in all the things a true harp player would be expected to know.

I don't wanna be the guy who fakes the funk. Know what i mean?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 07, 2016 2:57 PM
STME58
1556 posts
Feb 07, 2016
11:08 PM
Here is an exercise you might try to help understand how the keys relate to each other. You can create the circle of fifth using nothing but a keyboard or even just a picture of a keyboard, a knowledge of the note names of the keys and the fact that the C major scale has no sharps or flats. Note the intervals in the C major scale. Now duplicate that interval pattern starting on the 6 white keys, excluding F and note how many sharps you have to use and which ones they are. Arrange the keys in order of sharps used and you will see the pattern of the circle of fifths. You will also see that the order in which the sharps are added is not arbitrary. The reason I said not to do F is that the A# needed to make F major work is really a Bb not A#. If you look at the notes in order F, G, A, you can tell the the next note needs to be a B but the interval pattern requires it to be the black key between A and B, so it makes sense to call it Bb. You can the go on to analyze the major scale from intervals starting on all the flat keys and this will lead you to fill in the other side of the circle of fifths and you will also see that the order the flats are added is not arbitrary. I have found that deriving things from first principles can be a real aid to understanding them at a deeper level. Of course, no amount of intellectual understanding can take the place of good old repetitive practice, but it can help in deciding how and what to practice. If you find that exercise helpful you can do it again with the minor keys taking the interval pattern from the white keys from A to A. You will see that the sharps and flats are added in the same order, and when you match up the major and the minor with the same number of sharps of flats you have discovered the relative major and minor scales.

Sorry if this is too basic or if I have described it in a confusing manor, but I find this fascinating.

Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 07, 2016 11:24 PM
STME58
1557 posts
Feb 07, 2016
11:15 PM
Here is a spreadsheet I have created that has selectable harp layouts as well as an image of a keyboard and a circle of fifths on the same page. When I get a chance I may relabel the modes and add more modes, but I have found this useful. Especially if I have a piece of sheet music with some chromatisizm in it and I want to see what key harps would work and which overblows I will need.
Killa_Hertz
479 posts
Feb 08, 2016
3:46 AM
Its a bit confusing. But i Havent had time to really sit with it yet. But that's also the point. It's all chinese. So too basic really doesnt apply. I dont know much of theory. I dint even know which order the keys are on the piano. So that helped even at that level. Like i said so much info, didn't know where to start. I want to maximize my practice effectiveness. I know things like the whole whole half. And a few basic things, but it will surely help to put it into an exercise.

Thanks. Im sure it ll come in handy.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
mlefree
553 posts
Feb 08, 2016
5:03 AM
I don't think Michael Rubin's name has been mentioned here. He does have a book called "Meat and Potatoes Harmonica" that details much of the theory behind the short harp. He also has dozens of videos on the subject an is an online Skype teacher. Michael has the answers you seek and the learning material to back them up.

Michelle

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Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 08, 2016 5:03 AM
Killa_Hertz
483 posts
Feb 08, 2016
5:27 AM
Meat and Potatoes is the one of his you recommend the most? For this subject anyhow.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
dougharps
1155 posts
Feb 08, 2016
9:49 AM
According to posts above, you have bought a keyboard, an excellent visual tool to help with theory and chords. You have bought Winslow's 2 books. I don't have his blues harp book, but the Harmonica for Dummies is chock full of info from beginner through intermediate, and maybe some advanced. I recommend it as a good resource to students who seek me out and ask for help. You have plenty to work on for now. I admire your drive in working hard on your playing. While it is still necessary to work with other musicians at some future point, jam tracks are a good way to learn to hear and play over changes.

If you want to get a sense of Michael Rubin's approach, watch his "Meat and Potatoes" video series on YouTube, which is quite informative. I have not seen his "Meat and Potatoes" book, but from attending his SPAH workshops and from his videos it is clear that Michael Rubin really knows theory as applies to harp. So does Winslow...

It is more important to start to use this information to inform your playing now than to keep accumulating massive amounts of information. You have some tools to get started before buying more books. You can always add more books/DVDs/CDs later, after exploring the info you already have.
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Doug S.
WinslowYerxa
1069 posts
Feb 08, 2016
1:41 PM
I'm actually a total theory head, complete with propellor beanie.

But I found out a long time ago that people's eyes will glaze over very quickly if I launch into theory talk too quickly, so I've learned to take it slow and apply theory sparingly as needed and get the student up to speed in bite-size chunks.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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mr_so&so
996 posts
Feb 08, 2016
2:13 PM
It's not a book, but it's free.... Follow the link to my profile and have a look at my short "Essential Music Theory for Harmonica Players" document. It contains most of the stuff I've learned and use along the way. I've been expanding it into more of a short book form, but that project is on hold at the moment.
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mr_so&so

Last Edited by mr_so&so on Feb 08, 2016 2:15 PM
Killa_Hertz
487 posts
Feb 08, 2016
4:59 PM
Winslow .. i feel exactly the same way. My eyes just glase over. ...lol.

The keyboard had been EXTREMELY helpful ALREADY. I found a site (just the first i stumbled upon) musictheory.net. and it breaks down major/minor scales and maj/min chords, note relation, etc on the keyboard. Theres tons more on there but that's about as far as ive gotten. But already im having Aha moments. Just by working out the different cord types. Counting the patterns. Then hearing the differences. Minors sound kinda ominous. The augmented triads sound like there building aticipation, i guess, I'm not sure how to describe it. How a 7th leading note sounds vs a subtonic. It's not all as hard as i thought. I just needed something to break it down the right way. Step by step. When i see a dense article or something all i can hear is charlie browns teacher.... WOMP WOMP WOMP WOMP. I'm sure it will get much more complicated, but aslong as i have a path to follow i should be alright. It just all seemed so confusing before.

So n So Thanks. I checked out your site. It seems very well put together. I'll be sure to check it out further later on.

Thanks again to everybody else. I really didn't expect this kind of insight and advice. Really appreciated.

My girlfriend came downstairs as i was playing the keyboard. She says WTF are you doing?!? I said "Learning to play Harmonica." Duh!
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 08, 2016 5:04 PM
hvyj
2942 posts
Feb 08, 2016
5:49 PM
It's important to get out and play regularly with other musicians to implement the stuff you are learning. There's a gap between abstract knowledge and practical application that only live stage experience can fill. Then there is the entirely separate skill set of knowing how to play effectively with other musicians. Also, if you are fortunate enough to play with knowledgable musicians, ask them questions and listen to their answers carefully. You can learn a lot that way. Sometimes it requires some follow up research to understand how what they tell you relates to the harmonica, but if you get the opportunity to be around good musicians, don't be shy about asking questions.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 08, 2016 5:59 PM
groyster1
2838 posts
Feb 08, 2016
6:01 PM
my first book by tony glover very much simplified third position and jon gindicks also....he called it slant harp....if you have skill to play second position you can play 3rd
mlefree
555 posts
Feb 08, 2016
6:10 PM
If asked my first preference, Killa, I would say that the David Barrett 3rd, position book, but you ruled that out. Michael's Meat and Potatoes book makes for dry reading but it is a good primer and reference book. It's also a good basis from which to start lessons with Michael.

I didn't know Perfessor Winslow offers Skype lessons. Obviously, he'd be a big consideration, too. He has a catalog of articles and two books to use as supportive material. Micheal has one self-published booklet and dozens of videos. Both are steeped in musical theory and how to teach it. A nice choice to have, IMO.

Since you've ruled out several other options and we've acknowledged that there is no book out there covering precisely what you're looking for, I suggest that you take the other alternative and study with one of these experts. They could tailor a program of study to fit your needs. A couple lessons cold get you pointed in the right direction with plenty of study material.

Lots of aspects of the harmonica that interest me have no books either. That's why I have taken my own advice and chosen several teachers who are expert in those subject areas and studied with them. Much more effective than going it alone and probably less expensive in the long run.

Michelle

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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.

Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 08, 2016 6:11 PM
hvyj
2944 posts
Feb 08, 2016
7:11 PM
Assuming that you understand the layout of the harmonica (what notes you have and where to find them, and what notes you don't have), and know how to play, then you can just as easily take a music lesson from any non-harmonica playing knowledgable musician. I've done this from time to time and still do occasionally. Very useful. After all, the info you are after is not harmonica specific.

Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 08, 2016 7:13 PM
Killa_Hertz
489 posts
Feb 08, 2016
7:33 PM
No michelle i hadn't ruled it out Daves book. Infact i have ordered it already. I have heard very good things about it from numerous places. And that the teaching differs a bit from his online lessons.

I ordered
both dummies books.
Mel Bay third positon used (dave barrets book)
And Portnoys Videos set Used

Should keep my busy a while.

As far as playing 2nd position. I know a few scales and enough songs n licks to fake it pretty well. But I dont exactly know IT inside and out either. Far from it. I'm really trying to get a foot hold on it ALL. I would love to start playing with musicians. But at this point I wouldn't even know what they were taking about. I watch certain videos jason ricci etc ... and they all start talking about flat 7ths and this and that and i just ain't got a clue. I mean i know what a 7th is, but it doesnt really mean anything to me. Just cause i know what an Ñ is doesnt mean i speak spanish. Ya kno.

I think I've got a starting point tho. It's not as overwhelming now. I think my main problem was were to start. I had found pieces of the puzzle in lessons before, but then after they end. Now what. I'm still lost and with no next step. The keyboard is really helping me alot. It's all layed out right infront of you. Who would have thought harmonica would teach me how a piano works.

I may take a few skype lessons once I've covered the basics. But now that i have a solid starting point i have plenty to learn. There's tons of resources relating theory to the keyboard. The keyboard was Excellent advice btw. Have i mentioned how much the keyboard has helped me? In a matter of hours. **LIGHT BULB** no joke. Its actually very easy to tie the two together.

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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."

Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 08, 2016 7:37 PM


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