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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > David Barrett has posted an interview of me
David Barrett has posted an interview of me
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Michael Rubin
1082 posts
Nov 26, 2015
6:34 PM
Check out Bluesharmonica.com
JInx
1122 posts
Nov 26, 2015
8:34 PM
Bah ran into some sign up spam
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1847
2916 posts
Nov 27, 2015
7:46 AM
i would also like to watch that. just no longer willing to shell out the 20 or 30 bucks required.

i had a heck of a time trying to join that site.
i didnt find it to be user friendly.

kinda like here. LOL
slaphappy
140 posts
Nov 27, 2015
8:49 AM
you get a free month with any purchase of a hohner harp I think

I haven't watched it yet but I intend to!

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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
marine1896
486 posts
Nov 27, 2015
9:19 AM
Need to wait for the free 10 mins upload David Barrett usually puts up on his YT channel.
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Thievin' Heathen
632 posts
Nov 27, 2015
11:57 AM
I signed up for David Barret's free month a couple of SP20's ago. I found it fascinating and deep with knowledge I want to acquire, but did not do anything with it at the time. A year or 2 later now, I am just about to get billed for my 2nd month. I still have not gotten much out of it, but that's because I haven't seriously gotten into it. I figure if I buy 1 or 2 less ebay Marine Bands every month, I will never feel the financial hit.

And now I can hear what Michael Rubin has to say. Not a bad deal.
Mirco
328 posts
Nov 27, 2015
12:27 PM
Slaphappy is right. You get a free month if you buy a Hohner harp.

Bluesharmonica.com is a fantastic site. Michael Rubin is just the latest in a long line of harmonica greats to be featured in an interview by Dave.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
Rhartt1234
194 posts
Nov 28, 2015
2:11 PM
Michael Rubin on accompaniment:
"I will stand there, and that's it."

More harmonica players need to be secure enough in their musicianship and themselves to better serve the song and take the damn thing out of their mouths when it's called for.
marine1896
489 posts
Nov 28, 2015
2:19 PM
Michael Rubin on accompaniment:
"I will stand there, and that's it."

Or you could mime and do a little dance!
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
SuperBee
2995 posts
Nov 28, 2015
2:40 PM
Neat interview so far. I've watched the first 25 minutes.
Agree with support of the site...I've been a member 5.5 years now...I don't make such great use of it all the time, but I believe it's such a great resource I'm happy to pay my subs in an effort to support its ongoing existence
Mirco
329 posts
Nov 28, 2015
9:00 PM
90% sure that Michael is referring to me when he mentions a student of Dave's who dropped lessons with Michael because he said that "rhythm harmonica sounds bad." Glad to be part of an anecdote! But you've got it wrong, Michael...
There just wasn't enough time in the day to pursue lessons with two different teachers, so I chose the local guy. Nothing against Michael. I still send people to him if they want help with theory.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
Michael Rubin
1083 posts
Nov 29, 2015
7:51 AM
Marc, it was certainly you. What I actually said to you, which was not appropriate for the Dave interview and possibly not appropriate for this forum was, "rhythm harmonica sounds like ass." I was afraid that my opinion, combined with my coarse language, ran you away. I am glad to hear it did not.
1847
2920 posts
Nov 29, 2015
10:02 AM
when i first read that statement, i had to agree 100 percent.
but now i have had a chance to digest it, not so sure.

can we define rhythm harp playing?

sonny terry behind brownie mcgee. tom ball behind kenny sultan?
it would seem in a duo situation, it would be a necessary evil.

Last Edited by 1847 on Nov 29, 2015 10:03 AM
Mirco
330 posts
Nov 29, 2015
11:39 AM
I think that when Michael says "rhythm harmonica", he is referring to accompaniment or supportive harmonica (behind the vocals or soloist). I don't think Michael is referring to rhythmic harmonica, like the style of Sonny Boy in "Bye Bye Bird." I am also unsure if we would include horn lines or fills in this definition.

In a duo setting, this is probably a necessary evil. Would you agree, Michael?

Michael, as you know, Dave's website is comprehensive. At the time, I was just playing for about a year, so there was a lot to digest. I would've been overwhelmed with Dave's site and lessons from two different teachers. From time to time, I still go back and watch your "Meat and Potato" videos and I get more from them each time, as my overall understanding of music grows. Your opinions are different from most and are refreshing, and I always appreciate coarse language.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
Michael Rubin
1084 posts
Nov 29, 2015
1:38 PM
Definitely, my statement allows for exceptions. There are brilliant rhythm players in the history of harp. I am not sure that duo playing necessitates rhythm harp and I do feel most duo rhythm harp fails.

Interestingly enough, the majority of my current practice is going to rhythm harp, because I am trying to get to the low level pro ability on chord harp. It transfers very easily to diatonic, although I am not sure it really would sound good in a performance situation.
ME.HarpDoc
46 posts
Nov 29, 2015
3:57 PM
Not sure if this is rhythm harp or even dual harp but I like the sound.
Hamilton Loomis' "Who Dat"
https://youtu.be/-nNhBJRI270
MindTheGap
805 posts
Dec 01, 2015
8:29 AM
Oh no, I've just got a copy of David Barrett's book on accompaniment playing. It's a methodical survey of techniques used on your actual classic songs. Discographies and everything. And then I read here you say accompaniment playing is no good? What is going on here?

Up to now I've found your teaching vids seem to chime well. I wonder what's up.

I don't have access to in the interview, so I'm only going on the info in this thread.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 01, 2015 8:33 AM
Michael Rubin
1085 posts
Dec 01, 2015
10:56 AM
Mindthegap, it's all opinion. I probably love the harp on the tunes David mentions, but perhaps I wouldn't consider them rhythm harp. As I said, there are exceptions.
hvyj
2837 posts
Dec 01, 2015
11:32 AM
I agree with Michael. The essential problem is that one cannot "build" chords on a harmonica. So we are stuck with the primitive chords and chord fragments the instrument provides. Those only sound decent with limited types of material and don't sound all that musical when force fed over most music. A bandleader I respect once told me that amateur musicians are preoccupied with what they are going to play while professional musicians worry about how what they are playing fits the material and how it fits what the rest of the band is playing. Nothing is more common than some harp player making like a choo-choo train whether it fits the tune being played or not. It's better to shut up, let the music breathe and pick your spots. Now, if you are playing a tune like, say, High Heeled Sneakers, chording or chugging is an important part of the tune. But, as a general proposition, less is more. This remains true for duo playing where it maybe even more important to fit the tune/line/melody since there are only two instruments.

Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 01, 2015 4:15 PM
MindTheGap
806 posts
Dec 01, 2015
12:16 PM
That's what I'm trying to understand here - is your opinion (Michael or hvyj) about about always chording/chugging or is it about all kinds of accompaniment?

If the latter then I'm struggling to understand, because of many of the songs I like best have the harmonica in a comping role.

Very interested to read more detail about your opinions.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 01, 2015 12:17 PM
barbequebob
3055 posts
Dec 01, 2015
12:27 PM
The ony harmonica you could actually build chords or play unusual voicings on was one that has been long out of production called The Harmonetta that was used by the old school all harmonica bands of yore. Chording isn't always about chugging and even learning how to properly play chords off the upbeat is something many players don't really learn how to do particularly well and not screw up the time in the process.
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Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
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HarpNinja
4152 posts
Dec 01, 2015
1:32 PM
Rhythm harp is tricky. I like to play octaves and chords underneath similar to a B3, but hopefully low enough in the mix you can barely hear it.

When playing with a B3, I do it less.

I do not like chugging at all and typically agree with Michael about a lot of rhythm playing sucking.

Fills can be tough if you are doing a full night of blues too. I really struggle with that, especially if the band leader keeps giving me the nod to play fills.


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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Michael Rubin
1086 posts
Dec 01, 2015
2:31 PM
There is chugging or simply playing chords. There is playing root notes. There are playing octaves. There is creating a rhythm with the latter two or play pads, i.e. hanging on a sound. There is playing horn like rhythmic ideas or melodic phrasing that may or may not be transposed throughout the changes.

To me, most of these ideas fail, the latter two being the strongest possibilities. The harmonica excels at soloing, playing fills and playing specific melodic lines. Using the harp to imitate another instrument's role generally fails.

However, you will see me do it time and time again, because I generally play in bands. I can argue my perspective all I like, ultimately the democratic element of the group will someone veto my opinion.

I have heard many players succeed in changing my mind for a particular song. I know of certain players who change my mind regularly and other players who seem fawned over by a large majority of players who are not to my taste.

If you like it, that's awesome.

I believe my taste can change.
hvyj
2838 posts
Dec 01, 2015
3:55 PM
Well, if you want an example of a harp player who plays a lot of chord rythym and sounds great, listen to Mad Cat Ruth. So, it's not like it can never be done. But few, if any, of us are at his level. Also, some of Howard Levy's stuff with Bela Fleck.

A little while ago I posted a vid of me playing thru a Strymon Lex and Micro POG in an electric duo setting which most commentators agreed sounded very much like a B-3. But besides using the right hardware, I was able to pull that off by concentrating very hard on only playing very specific chords, and not getting carried away, which required considerable self discipline.

Why do so many harp players chug rythym? Because they can. But just because you can doesn't mean it helps the overall sound, especially if you are playing with a guitar player who is using sophisticated chord voicings.

Sometimes (actually, fairly often) a tune you are playing has chords you don't have on your harp. What to do? Of course one thing you can do is lay out. Another thing to do is what I call note substitution (my term, not a musical term of art). The way the musicians I work with play the Otis Redding tune Dock of the Bay in the key of G, there is a G# chord (not shown on most of the tab you find on the web, btw). Well, there is no G# chord available on a C harp and if you don't OB, the note G# is only available at 6D* or 3D*** and the timbre of those bends really doesn't fit the mood of the tune. What to do over the G# change? Play 4B which is C, the note that is the third of the G# chord. Sounds pretty good.

Moral of the story: Rather than play primitive chords because that's what you have available, play NOTES that work with the chord the band is playing. Now, sometimes such notes won't sound very good played in isolation alone in your living room. But play them against what the band is laying down and you, the band and, most importantly THE TUNE will sound great (assuming you pick notes that work). A much better approach IMHO than making like a choo-choo train. FWIW.

Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 01, 2015 4:19 PM
MindTheGap
808 posts
Dec 02, 2015
12:10 AM
Thanks for the extra detail. There seem to be two different things being talked about here...

- Chugging, and how it's not appropriate everywhere just to chuck in the limited chords available on the harp. That seems a very good point.

- All the other comping techniques.

Michael - just so I understand, when you write, 'To me, most of these ideas fail, the latter two being the strongest possibilities....' do you mean they are the strongest possibilities to fail? Or you mean they are the strongest ideas (i.e. the better ones). Thanks!

When I talked about many of my favourite songs including comping, I definitely don't mean chugging and train sounds. I'm thinking of LW accompanying Jimmy Rogers on the Chicago Bound album.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2015 12:10 AM
MindTheGap
810 posts
Dec 02, 2015
3:26 AM
Here's Act Like You Love Me. The harmonica is sounding pretty much all the time, purring away comping doing various things as listed above, aside from chugging. I like this, I'm not interested in convincing anyone else to like it.

But I am interested - genuinely - if this is the kind of thing that people here don't like, or don't think the harmonica should really be doing.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2015 3:36 AM
Michael Rubin
1087 posts
Dec 02, 2015
3:46 AM
Mind the Gap, they are the two strongest ideas, the least likely to fail.

I love the Chicago Bound album and KW on the Ludella album. I love Muddy Waters. Perhaps my feeling about this type of harp is that most of the people since then do not understand how to make it sound good. What I do believe is these bands have orchestration and to be a harp player playing this style in a band where the other musicians are not playing this style, you will fail.
MindTheGap
811 posts
Dec 02, 2015
6:03 AM
Thanks Michael, ah yes that make sense. I sometimes get the feeling that the harp is considered as the interloper the band - all the seats are taken, so to speak. So there is only space made available to perform a bona fide solo. Not the case in these recordings though.

Apparently this conversation is continuing on another channel...

Anyway, I'm sure you said a lot more than this in your interview. I wonder what else you said.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2015 6:05 AM
hvyj
2841 posts
Dec 02, 2015
6:06 AM
Personally, I like the harp playing on "Act Like You Love Me". It really drives the tune hard. However, in the real world ( as compared to a recording studio) I would NOT play while the vocalist was singing. Several reasons for this. One being the singer can't hear himself well if you do, and another being that without a studio mix it is very likely to sound messy. But why the harp works so well (IMHO) on this tune is not only the excellent note selection and the harp player's cool variations in dynamics but his RYTHYM AND GROOVE are excellent. Very strong.

Personally, in my subjective judgement, the problem with most harmonica acts is they are too harmonica centric. That is to say too god damned much harmonica playing! If you approach performance as the harmonica being just another instrument in the band instead of looking for every available opportunity to blow some harp I think most tunes sound better. Maybe that's just me. BUT...I started to get more regular sideman gigs after I started playing like that, so maybe it's not just me. Ya gotta let the music breathe.....

Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 02, 2015 6:08 AM
MindTheGap
812 posts
Dec 02, 2015
6:10 AM
hvyj - Right. Yes I can see that - the difference between what you can hear and differentiate on a record and in a live setting. Very good point.

I guess that it be my ideal (both to listen to and aim to play) that the harp is just another instrument in the band and has a proper role and function. And I mean not just sitting out or loudly soloing.

...But I'm conscious that this discussion has hijacked Michael's OP that he has an interview out there. So I'll move over to the other thread.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2015 6:15 AM
hvyj
2842 posts
Dec 02, 2015
6:22 AM
Yeah, but you must have something meaningful to contribute musically. Electric harp is a very strong, potentially in your face instrument. So you often have a better musical effect and make a more meaningful artistic statement if you hold back a little. Simple example: don't play any fills during the first verse. Let the tune get going and build. If you start playing right away there's no place to go. If you wait and then come in later, it's more intense and meaningful. Another idea: lay out on the V change. This is where most players start blowing their face out. Let the guitar or keyboard take it. It builds anticipation. Then, when you come back in at the top of the I the audience is ready and waiting for you to say something. Now, these are just examples, not invariable rules.

Btw, the thing I enjoy the least is the harmonica circle jerk. You know, where there are 3 or 4 harmonica players on stage at the same time. I mean, really??? It's hard enough to make one harp fit in and sound musical.

Apologies to Michael for so actively aiding and abetting the hi-jack of your thread. But Rhartt was the one who first brought it up and stimulated this dialogue by quoting Michael.

Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 02, 2015 6:38 AM
MindTheGap
814 posts
Dec 02, 2015
6:32 AM
That sounds like good advice, thank you.
hvyj
2844 posts
Dec 02, 2015
7:05 AM
Permit me to make another observation about the harp playing on "Act Like You Love Me". What is really cool and extremely effective IMHO is the harp player's PLACEMENT OF NOTES IN RELATION TO THE BEAT. He starts by pushing the beat-- getting a little ahead of the beat which creates drive. Then he varies by playing some phrases on the beat, some slightly behind the beat and some driving hard again by pushing the beat. It keeps his lines interesting. You need good time and rythym to do this and you need a good drummer who holds steady and doesn't speed up when you start to push.

This is not something to be done on every tune. But it is a meaningful way to make your playing interesting on the right material if you know how to do it and have a good or at least steady drummer.

Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 02, 2015 7:11 AM
Mirco
332 posts
Dec 02, 2015
9:27 AM
The "harmonica circle jerk" is often a travesty. It's often guys just waiting around to solo. There are, however, more interesting things to do with two or three harmonica players onstage. Trading fours is fun; the audience will see one musician present an idea and hear the others respond to it by adding or altering it. Multiple harmonicas playing in unison (the horn line approach) is cool for a song or two, also. Imagine something like "Night Train" or "Cleo's Mood" with multiple harmonicas playing the head.

MindtheGap- You should head over to Dave's site and check the interview out. That site is worth the price of admission for the interviews alone.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
mlefree
463 posts
Dec 04, 2015
9:08 AM
Interesting divergent opinions on rhythm harp.

Personally, as a lover of pre-war harmonica playing, I feel that rhythm harp is one of the coolest things a harmonica player can do. This is most true with duos. In most any other sub-genre the constant sound of a harmonica just clutters up the soundscape.

How can you not like a Sonny Terry, Phil Wiggins, Madcat, Hammy Nixon, and so on?

I seem to be a lone dissenter here, but...

At least that's the way I see it.

Michelle

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