Im sure this has been covered before- but was wondering what kind of pedal I can get to a good crunch tone for my harmonica playing My current rig set up is this- ultimate 545 mic from blows me away- LWB Harp Tone- RV5 Reverb and BBE sonic maximizer pedal hooked into a Pignose HOG 20 AMP. I am thinking that I only need a couple more pedals to complete the rig set up. A Shift Pitch pedal like the POG or the Pitch Fork- and a good pedal to add crunch to the clean tone I already have in my set up. any suggestions?
You are using a solid state amp, which is the limiting factor on the kind of "crunch" tone you can get, but you should be able to get a pretty good tone with what you already have. Before buying more pedals or a tube amp I would suggest working on getting the most out of what you already have. Here is a suggested course of action to repeat for at least a few days, preferably longer:
I would pare down the pedal train, first just using the mic (Is it set for high-Z, or if it is a low-z version, are you using an impedance matching transformer?) and the amp.
Play with the cleanest settings (set volume very high and bring up drive slowly at low settings) not using any pedals. Work on mic cupping to get the best sound you can with just mic and amp. Work to minimize escaping air and play from the diaphragm. You don't have to strain to cup, just get a good seal. Try different EQ settings on the amp's tone knob, starting at the midpoint.
After at least 30 minutes of working on cupping and EQ adjustments add the Harp Tone Plus and resume playing, trying different settings on the Harp Tone to get the best crunch tone possible. The Harp Tone should let you access the harmonics and low end that you need.
Do this for a few days with just the mic and amp and adding the Harp Tone each time. Then try adding other pedals ONE AT A TIME and exploring different pedal settings, with minor tweaking of the pedals already in the chain. Each time, go back to basics before adding pedals.
Trying to work on adjusting your sound with a bunch of pedals all at unexplored settings is frustrating. One at a time can help you learn how to set them for the sounds you want.
In my opinion, good harp and mic technique is the key issue (90%) to getting the best possible crunch from your rig. The rest is icing on the cake to refine your best tone. Working from the basics up is the best way to go.
Just my thoughts... others may suggest a different approach. ----------
My advice you probably won't like, but it would be to ditch the pedals, buy a valve amp, get a good mic, learn to cup it properly. Then you'll have more "crunch" than you should ever need. As long as you have good playing technique.
@Chameleon: Above are the kind of answers you will get here: Thou shalt not pedal. That is, not unless you can somehow prove that you´ve paid your dues in the cupping, tone etc departments. Then you can go and buy the same pedals the guys doling out the advice uses.
Sometimes these are good answers -- but perhaps not all of the time. You don´t say anything of your proficiency, the music you´re into (supposedly a bit of blues, since this forum is what it is); but you obviously, like me are aiming for some kind of pedal set-up that gives your sound variety.
From what I read and hear -- and if money is not any bigger hindrance in your sound pursuits -- I think you should check out the Lone Wolf Harp Break/Attack pedals. I don´t use them myself, but will probably get one before I lay my burden down. They appear to be quite interesting. But for heaven´s sake, do not forget to work on your tone and cupping and whatever! Because, as the gearheads use to say, "it´s not in the gear but all in the player".
Well, I regularly use pedals,and I don't usually set up for crunch, but I've been playing a sideman gig where the bandleader wants a "raw" tone from the harmonica. I tried a LW Harp Break but I couldn't get an acceptable dirty tone out of it before feeding back. but I use a 545 Ultimate and I think the LW HB is optimized for use with a bullet mic.
Now, this gig is a very high volume gig, so I use a Keeley Compressor Pro first in chain after the mic goes through a Sqeal Killer, but those 2 are more for feedback control. For dirt I use an MXR MICRO AMP PLUS running into an XOTIC EP BOOSTER with the internal switches set to "vintage" on the EP. The MXR has ACTIVE bass and treble controls that cut or boost the bass and/or treble and using 2 preamps gives you 2 gain stages to work with. I suspect this works better into a tube amp though. I usually use a Peavey Delta Blues with this pedal set up because it is dirtier than my Super Reverb RI and can get louder before feedback. My Princeton Reverb RI is not enough amp for this gig. BTW, if I were you, I'm not sure if I would leave the BBE on if I was trying to get dirt.
If you are going to stay with a solid state amp, using a phaser with the speed control low and the depth control high will mimic a tube compression sound , but may cause feedback if you boost the signal with preamps.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 12, 2015 11:35 AM
Another way to get dirt is to use an MXR 10 band equalizer and boost 250hz and play with the separate gain and volume controls using them as if they were preamps. This pedal is not true bypass though and I am partial to TB pedals. It also requires more than 9v power but a guitar player I work with runs his with a One Spot and it works just fine. Btw, if you get a Micro POG, analogMan offers a TB mod for $40 U.S.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 12, 2015 12:36 PM
I second the above. You can try all kinds of pedals but they're no substitute for technique and are not necessary to get crunch. I agree that the gear you have - mic and amp ONLY - are sufficient. A great deal of crunch comes from pulls, and slaps and other percussive techniques on the harp. If you're playing nothing but lip pursed single notes - you won't get crunch. You also need to be able to cup the mic effectively so the sound pressure from the harp is focused on the mic, not escaping all over front and back.
"but I use a 545 Ultimate and I think the LW HB is optimized for use with a bullet mic." No - that's simply not true. There is nothing one would do to optimize an amp for a bullet vs a 545.
I have a fender super reverb, a big amp with 4X10" speakers. At lower volumes its a little clean. I use either the LW harp break or LW harp octave if I can't play loud enough to get breakup. I prefer the harp break for a fat tone, but the octave if the band is really loud and I need to cut through the mix. I also use a 5watt valve amp, and the only pedal I use is delay. If you can't get the tone you want on a cranked small amp, work on technique; as Greg says, pulls, slaps and percussive techniques, as well as cupping. You'll probably find the search for tone will eventually bring you back to technique and away from pedals. ---------- Lucky Lester
@greg: "There is nothing one would do to optimize an amp for a bullet vs a 545." Agreed. I was talking about the Harp Break pedal being optimized for use with a bullet mic, not the amp. I would make the same observation about the Lone Wolf Harp Octave, which is essentially a clean boost, working better with a bullet.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 13, 2015 1:22 AM
I think the harp break pedal is really something to use with a cleaner mic. Or a clean amp. It's for situations where you want a break up sound but can't achieve it naturally. My bullets are more inclined to deliver a dirtier sound more easily than my more modern dynamics. The harp break is good with a solid state amp or a big valve amp as didj suggests above. With an amp that will achieve break up naturally, the harp break is redundant, and will just lower the FB threshold. For those situations the octave pedal will often provide some FB resistance while allowing high volume and an element of distortion, although the clip of the octave pedal is not always pleasant. The hb is more of a soft-sounding distortion but the octave pedal has a harder edge.
My apologies to Popculture Chameleon: I forgot to include TB:ing as a another prerequisite for crunch. My bad. (It´s one of the usual suspects that regularly comes up when we´re shouting out didactic proclamations at those who have the temerity to approach the Harmonica Mount Olympus: "Pucker off if you don´t TB.") As Greg says: "If you're playing nothing but lip pursed single notes - you won't get crunch." Thus people like Paul Butterfield, a lip purser, as I´ve understod it, never had "crunch", por bastard. As for myself, consistently lip pursing when not playing octaves, I´m a lost cause, so therefore, discard my above advice. I believe I was told roughly something similar when I asked about "warmer tone" a month or so ago: "You won´t get warm tone unless you can completley mute the harmonica while cupping." I provided examples where both Bob Dylan (a dedicated tone monster!) and JJ Milteau played with what could reasonbly called a "warm" sound, and not much cupping, but no matter. There´s a Swedish proverb, a rough translation something like, "As you shout in the forest you will be answered", and that has some bearing on those gear/technique debates here.
A clarification regarding my suggestions in the post above:
In no way am I discouraging the use of pedals to get harp sounds other than the traditional blues amp "brown sound". In no way am I suggesting that you have to have really good acoustic harp tone or mic/amp tone before starting to use pedals. In no way am I suggesting that technique alone is the answer, though improving basic technique always helps our sound. Improvement is a never ending quest, and we don't start this journey having already mastered everything.
I AM suggesting that as serious players we should spend time mastering the gear we already have in order to get the most of it. By focusing on this, one piece at a time, we can learn how to dial in our best sound with each piece of gear.
I AM suggesting that just adding pedals without learning how to use each piece of gear in the chain to its best effect is not likely to be satisfying in our quest for our best individual sound.
P.S. You don't have to tongue block to get crunch, though it might make crunch more pronounced with less effort because that approach automatically opens your airway and plays the notes that enhance break up. Chords and dirty notes played by lipping technique will work just fine for crunch. ----------
want to crunch, learn to TB if you havent already. a valco amp or sonny jr cruncher might help, pedals will not help achieve the "crunch" you want sorry if i sound dickish blues harp players i know with the best crunch, most DON"T USE PEDALS
The Hog 20 has a built-in "crunch" circuit activated by the the "squeal" control. Have you tried using that? Wouldn't another solid-state "cruncher" be redundant?
Do the quest like many harp players have done. Not just about plugging into a pedal. Suggestions : Get a tube amp. Maybe a vintage but doesnt have to be. The correct speaker helps a lot. Weber Vintage 125-0 you cant go wrong. 545's can be good and some are terrible.Try different mic's and cup correctly. Except for a Lone Wolf Delay and a good anti-feedback ( if needed ) set the rest of the pedals aside for a while. After all that create a chamber in your mouth and throat and tongue block - tongue slap and play, play, play.
appreciate all the comments it gives me a direction to go in- I got the hog 20 to use as a practice home amp and I also have a roland micro cube 3w amp for busking at least for now. I play with Hohner Rockets at the moment hoping to add crossovers and thunderbirds later on-I really don't have an all time favorite harp player I like many of them from Howlin Wolf and Little Walter to Paul Butterfield and Jason Ricci- So I want to play with both a clean and dirty sound. That's why I brought up this question
Last Edited by Popculture Chameleon on Oct 13, 2015 4:02 PM
Your tongue is your best overdrive pedal, TB give you lots of grit.
If you can, try all the pedals you want, you can learn a lot just playing whit knobs. The same goes for amps. ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
dougharps wrote: "I AM suggesting that as serious players we should spend time mastering the gear we already have in order to get the most of it."
One way to do this is to have someone really good play through your rig and record it. Once you know what your gear can do, then you can figure out how it, or more likely you, need to change.
I had a friend with much better tone than I blow through my rig, and it's amazing how good it can sound. Now I just have to figure out how to do that too.
----------
Last Edited by garry on Oct 14, 2015 2:20 PM
@1847 I have seen Kim Wilson in concert many times and have never seen him with an array of foot pedals. As for Ali, I have never seen a video with him that had a pedal board setup. I don't consider the use of a Kinder AFB pedal to be the same as using a POG or a Pitch Fork, as the AFB pedal is used to reduce feedback. Yes, it does alter the tone a bit, but not like the other pedals mentions and it is certainly not the magic box that delivers the "crunch." As for hiding them behind the amp, these guys are not the mad wizards from Oz. So if you want crunch, I'd work on the TB and tongue slaps and other techniques. Take a listen to this clip. Do you think this guy needs another pedal to develop "crunch.?"
What many people here don´t seem to get is that "Work on your tone, cupping" etc are Given Things -- we don´t have to repeat them endlessly. ALL PLAYERS AT ALL TIMES SHOULD WORK ON THEIR TONE. Ca we let that rest now? (There are "hows" to be asked in that context, but the OP here clearly wanted gear advice.) As for TB, I don´t know if this constitutes "crunch", but at a certain point in my life (when I was exclusively playing blues) I was really convinced that this was the shit. PB was a pucker player::
@6SN7 Yes, he probably does. Dreadful sound, totally lacking in bass, warmth and "crunch". But then again, he is a poor player too! Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
I actually agree that it's primarily technique that gets the job done. That being said, if you don't have the mic and amp setup to suit you, pedals can help. The Lone Wolf are great and I always have them with me as I never know what I'm going to be given at certain venues. R
Last Edited by Little roger on Oct 14, 2015 6:17 AM
@ Martin: I am afraid it is terrific advise and is very apropos to the question asked. Whether it's obvious, I dunno, it gets asked a lot.
As for PB, at the first time I heard him, I thought (and still think) he was the "crunch." But here is another example of "crunch." I post this because I know no pedals were used and the "crunch" is delivered by TBing and tongue slaps.
@6SN7: But have you missed that the OP is headed: "A harp pedal for a crunch tone?" That´s the question we should be answering -- esp. in view of that fact that we have not heard Popculture´s tone, so we cannot decide if he´s good or bad in that department. And, as we know, there are pedals that will get you some of the way. Gear matters -- quite a lot. (Since 95% of the forum members are dedicated gear-heads that is something we sholdn´t have to say.)
A few months ago I'm taking the names at our Jam..guy comes in,never seen him before.." G'day what do you play?" "Harmonica" Now where i live there are more honest politicians than there are "Harmonica"players..but we do have a few Harp players. He had no gear with him at all so in that nudge nudge way that, hey we both know the secret language,i said to him that i had a Harp train 10 miked to the PA and an Astatic T3/Cm mike he could use. " Merci mon ami.. but could i just use one of the PA microphones?". Mmmm..I'm intrigued. Anyways i put him up about an or so later with some good players and yes he just takes the songs over..massive tone,crunch and the whole shebang.He didn't even check the PA settings before getting on stage for fucks sake! He was a French Airline Pilot in town for the night. He did tell me later that he is a 100% tongue blocker. I should of read those How to Play inserts that used to come with the 70's Marine Bands ^)
indigo, THAT is a case study right there. I'm sorry this issue gets so contentious but the fact is that the technique required for good tone is difficult. +90% of the time I meet players that are trying to figure it out have not yet mastered the ability to articulate individual notes much less addressed the details of really good sound. The REAL deal is TB bends -the difference is stunning.
My current rig uses 2 pedals, LW delay and octave, which is with no effect but as an excellent as a pre-amp and for feedback control. The effect does provide nice cut (some would call crunch) but it's still a modeled sound I don't need. 1960 Brown Concert
Last Edited by Littoral on Oct 15, 2015 4:27 AM
Martin- Here is someone playing thru a Pignose with a Squeel pedal and a Lone Wolf delay. Now this guy has lots of crunch and how do you think he does it. With the pedals ? No.
I would gently suggest you read the above entry by Indigo. That is height of cool and the epitome of gearhead in my mind.
@6SN7: But you still don´t get it: If he´s asking for some sort of pedal that gives him "crunch", why not recommend him one of those? If you know of one. There are occasions when we can leave our hobby horses in the closet and just hand out advice based on a relevance criterion. Or let the matter rest.
It´s perfectly possible to sound great through a PA, that ain´t news. As for me, if it came to a -good- PA and a -good- mic, I´d certainly choose that before a Pignose, since I advocate "warmth" (something I´ve been (wrongly) informed only was possible if you cupped properly etc). The Pignose has about as much warmth than effing Gothenburg in the winter.
There were times when, back in the day, Lee Oskar played straight through the PA, and somtimes he sounded good, sometimes not so good (lots of evidence on YT); but if he suddenly looked in here and asked for a pedal that gave him "crunch" I think it would be kinda appropriate to give him what he asked for.
The problem with setting up for crunch (not using pedals) is that it gives you crunch...all the time. That's fine if you are only playing in a style where crunch is appropriate. But some of us play in multiple styles (sometimes even on the same gig) and the ability to turn the crunch tone/timbre on or off with a foot switch is extremely practical and appealing.
I posted a vid a while ago of me playing in support a black female vocalist named Michelle who was singing a blues. But, in a typical show Michelle sings a variety of material: blues, jazz, R&B, and oldies. Full time crunch doesn't work on a gig like that, nor do tongue slaps and pulls (which don't work in all positions anyway). So, it's a matter of the right tool(s) for the right job. For example, if I were playing through a bassman with a bullet mic I doubt if I would be getting sideman gigs from Michelle.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 15, 2015 1:57 PM
Martin, i suggest PC try an "organic" pedal before buying a "electronic" pedal. This guy in the video makes it sound pretty good. Of course, there are others (as evidence on Youtube) who don't get a tone like this guy, but I doubt there is a pedal that achieve for those folks what this guy is doing organically.
@hvyj: Thank you for this insight. That is exactly the kind of situation I tend to find myself in; also, I suspect, the OP since he appears to be drawn to several other sound-types as well as crunch. The Kim Wilson et al stuff (pedals or no pedals: but, interestingly, when you look closely they tend to have a few of those ...) is one sound and one sound only. Does not work that great on, for instance, a C&W number.
@6SN7: As I´ve said in another tread, there is even the extraordinary situation where Bob Dylan sounds good -- due to skilled operators in the studio. In general, if you mean "Don´t throw out a whole lot of money if you can avoid it", I´m in complete agreement.
To specifically answer the OP question (not to negate my previously expressed opinions that I stand by), I would recommend the Lone Wolf Harp Break pedal. It is the pedal I previously decided I would buy if I had enough need for one in my gigs.
Yeah, one of my favourite videos. But we must not forget that Ian C cannot have crunch here since he´s not cupping. Unwitting listeners who think otherwise are deceived. Also, all of us who think part 2 sounds better, the one with the pedal and not the rather expensive amp, are completely misinformed.
"Also, all of us who think part 2 sounds better, the one with the pedal and not the rather expensive amp, are completely misinformed."
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by that statement. Whether a person prefers the sound of the amp, or of the pedal into the PA is a personal choice. It's simply a matter taste.
I quite often use a Harp Attack direct into the PA when I can't for a reason use an amp, but an amplified sound is required. However I'm also happy playing direct into a vocal mic without any effects as well. I can happily get crunch either way, by using technique.
The Lone Wolf pedals I have tried are excellent pieces of kit, but as with all these things (any amps, pedals, effects, etc) it's the player that makes the biggest difference.
A few weeks ago a girl came up to me at a jam that had played some harmonica earlier in the night. She was asking about my mic, amp, my playing style, harps, etc. Whilst we were talking I was showing her things acoustically. She said "I can see now that you're making the sound and it's not the gear making that sound. Which is what I thought was the case". She said "I now know what I need to work on to improve my playing".
Gear can make a difference of course it can. The biggest difference though will always be the player. Learning, expanding and improving your playing technique (not just your tone). Will always make much more difference than all the gear in the world.
Popculture Chameleon: If you want a pedal, then I recommend the Lone Wolf Harp Attack or Harp Break. I'd say for any player to have one just as a back up 'amp' is a good idea. Just bear in mind that you are the biggest part of the equation. You will always be the most important link in the chain of your playing and make the biggest difference to your sound.
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 15, 2015 10:06 AM
I run a Lone Wolf antifeedback pedal followed by a BK Butler Blue Tube with an 12AU7 instead of the 12AX7. I think these Butlers are great (if noisy) pedals. The noise is not an issue at performance levels. They add a good deal of compression, loads of depth and thickness, and as much crunch as you could ask for. Add a touch of delay and that's it.
Mild irony, Kingley, not intended to be offensive, but sort of directed at statements like: "My advice you probably won't like, but it would be to ditch the pedals, buy a valve amp, get a good mic, learn to cup it properly," quoth Kingley. Good points all, but: Ian Collard has some crunch while not cupping, and makes a pedal sound better than a boutique amp. No objective truths here, of course, just my views, on the relative merits of gear. (Sadly, I live in constant shortage of interesting gadgets myself.)
Does Ian Collard really make it sound "better" than the amp? Surely that's just a matter of personal opinion.
In that clip I too prefer the sound of the Lone Wolf pedal. Of course though Ian has his chops together and can make almost any rig sound good.
Martin- I'd always advise any player to use a valve amp and good mic wherever possible and forego pedals, as it's a proven method of getting a good sound and attaining 'crunch'. Although it's obviously not the only method of attaining 'crunch'. I also advise as I do above using something like the Harp Attack to get an 'amped' sound if required when an amp isn't available.
With regards to pedals my personal view is that every single player I've heard use them sounds better without them and just 'straight in' so to speak. Of course that's my personal preference and your preference is different. It's a wide and varied world and that is what makes it so interesting. If we all sought the exact same thing it'd get a bit bland wouldn't it?
i bet the spam monster will attack, we will see. here is something i found on the internet. i hope everyone enjoyed the kim wilson video where it shows him using pedals.
I understand why many harp players want to be able to sound like the old Chicago blues players and get that crunch tone. What I don't understand is why there is such an obsession with crunch and such relatively modest interest in working with the panoply of other electric sounds/timbres that modern equipment can provide.
I played my gig last night with a pedal board set up as follows:
545 Ultimate>TC Electronics Helix phaser>EH MicroPOG>Strymon Lex>TC Electronics Vortex Flanger>Xotic EP Booster>MXR Carbon Copy Delay>Peavey Delta Blues amp.
Now, with a Phaser and a Flanger some of you might think I'm auditioning for Star Trek or something. But these 2 TC pedals are so flexible and adjustable that when I engage them no one thinks it's a phaser or a flanger--just a cool sound. AND when using them in combination with other effects I can get a variety of other interesting musical sounds, some quite dramatic, others very subtle. Other musicians seem to like it, the audiences seem to like it and venue owners/managers who do the booking sometimes make favorable comments about it. So, I have reasons to believe it contributes positively to the music. Of course I'm not using pedals constantly and you have to exercise self discipline and good judgement about when, if and how much to use them so as not to overdo it. Now, these pedals are harmonica friendly and respond to technique, so they are not just sound effects. Of course one has to spend time adjusting them and fooling around with them to get everything set up working in harmony and sounding right. To me, this is more musically interesting than the seemingly eternal quest for crunch. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 16, 2015 4:09 PM
@Kingley: Well, i said above that yes, it´s just my views", so that counts for personal opinion. Also (but this tread has dragged out a bit and I don´t expect you to keep track of all my posts), I often prefer "straight in" -- but it has to do with the settings, the mic and the PA. On some PA:s straight in is simply torture. Been there ... etc So while I also value diversity, we ain´t that different. (And let me repeat: I´m not the strongest advocate for the Kim Wilson type of sound, but if pressed for a choice would rather go for a warm, just ever so slightly raspy sound that worked all-round. Just as Lee Oskar had it back in the day, before he fell into the pedal abyss.)
