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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Warming up the sound
Warming up the sound
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Martin
869 posts
Aug 26, 2015
5:16 PM
This is something that is constantly annoying me with the harmonica: I find it very hard to get a -warm- sound that is to my satisfaction, regardless of amp, mic, PA etc.
I would gladly sacrifice all distortion and whatever, even in a blues context, if I could find something that just gave me warmth.
Any pointers here, within a reasonable price range?
Harpaholic
771 posts
Aug 26, 2015
7:36 PM
Martin, is there a specific player that has the warm tone that you seek?

Technically speaking warm tones are certain frequencies that are pleasing
to the ear.
nacoran
8639 posts
Aug 26, 2015
7:56 PM
Without a sample of what you consider warm it's hard to say. There seem to be enough differences between how different people describe 'warm' that even if there is a technical description that may not suffice.

Me personally, I find harps with closed backs to sound warmer by my ear (if I'm using the term correctly) and generally speaking, when playing acoustically, off the mic, when I have a tighter cup I hear it warmer. The opposite sound to me would be a Marine Band with opened backs played with an open cup.

On my amp, I'd add a little reverb and boost the bass frequencies. I would play with a more even attack and kind of legato, although at this point I'm probably conflating songs that sound warm to my ear with actually warmness. For chords, something less ET?

But none of those are particularly technically accurate. The best way is to ask for 'how do I sound like such and such on this song'.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
1847
2721 posts
Aug 26, 2015
8:55 PM
i think of a warm sound as something that starts, acoustically.
perhaps with, God forbid: brass reeds.

played super softly tongue blocked.

from there,to take that amplified, a tube amp with a bit of headroom, 12ax7 preamp tubes, perhaps kt 66 power tubes
with the appropriate speakers.

a tape echo will round the sound considerably.
Harpaholic
772 posts
Aug 26, 2015
9:51 PM
When I say technically speaking I mean warm tones come from midrange frequencies.

Since harmonica's are strong in the midrange, I find the question a little
odd now that I think about it.

I can describe how I get a warm tone with guitar but I'm curious to see what the OP
is looking for?

Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 26, 2015 9:52 PM
Kingley
3913 posts
Aug 26, 2015
10:12 PM
Martin- Are you happy with your acoustic tone? Does that sound warm enough to you? If the answer is no then, that's the area you need to work on.

If the answer is yes. Then you'll need to look into your cupping technique, your mic and your amp, amp settings, amp valves, amp speaker . Any change in any of these things may help. You also need to be aware that it may not do as well.

My money is on your acoustic tone being the basis of the problem.
1847
2722 posts
Aug 26, 2015
10:17 PM
from what i recall, martin is a fine player.
with exceptional acoustic tone.

There are some changes that need to be made.

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Pistolcat
839 posts
Aug 27, 2015
3:40 AM
Having heard Martin play through both amps and PA I can assure that he has a good time. I would also call it "warm". I associate warm with "soft/fuzzy" there are no harsh or squeely sounds. Think opposite of Dylan... My warmest or softest harp is actually a steel reed seydel session steel. I think it has a lot to do with the 1: full length, non-vented covers that is kind of soft in the finish, too. 2: a soft material and slightly leaky comb.

Hard combs such as bamboo or different metals just enhances all overtones and sound bright and chimney but not warm, too me. The same with custom, flattened, airtight and lacquered combs. They are very responsive but sometimes there's no wiggle room for vocal warmth in your playing. It all comes out as a "instrument" sound. Am I making any sense?
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
The Iceman
2639 posts
Aug 27, 2015
4:44 AM
I found my warm tone from two sources.

Golden Melody Harmonicas.

Large pre-yawn attitude when playing coupled with breathing the harmonica from the diaphragm - not blowing or sucking.

Actually, the technique is more important than the harmonica brand, although we all choose one that sounds best to us.
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The Iceman
hvyj
2757 posts
Aug 27, 2015
5:47 AM
As far as hardware is concerned, IMHO, many bullet mics and smaller amps can sound harsh. Use a larger, cleaner amp that has speakers no smaller than 10" and a PA style mic, like, for example, a 545. Harps with UNvented covers sound warmer/cleaner than harps with vented covers. Use a little reverb/delay to smooth out the timbre.

Put an Xotic EP Booster last in chain before the delay/reverb. Set the internal switches to "vintage", and turn the external knob all the way to the left as if you were turning it off. On this setting the EP will act like a sonic enhancer and will fatten and warm the tone. It costs $116.

If.you use delay AND reverb put the delay BEFORE the reverb.

Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 27, 2015 5:56 AM
Martin
870 posts
Aug 27, 2015
6:08 AM
OK, thank you guys.
Of course I should have provided some examples of what I´m looking for, and below are two: the first from studio (exceptional warmth!); the second live, probably through PA (acceptable).
(It´s extremely annoying but every time I try to think of some YT clip exemplifying something or other it´s wiped out from my memory. These two will have to serve for the time being.)

Also, what I should have said is that I do NOT believe this sought-after quality of warmth has a whole lot to do with the particular harmonica brand/type. But I hear, as Larry, that the GM´s are huskier and more preferable -- however, I never play un-amplified, except when practising. (And LO plays, unsurprisingly, LO harmonicas. They sound tinny.)

How is my tone/cupping technique ...? Passable, I should say, and hope I´m not sounding big headed -- and thank you Pistolcat for the kind words. There´s a fever raging in my body right now, but when it has passed I could try to provide a sound sample of my tone.
This is an area where there´s ALWAYS room for improvement, and it´s hard to judge yourself.
Still, I´m a reasonably experienced player, fairly keen on detecting faults in the tone department in others. If that means an aspect blindness in me I can´t say.

But let that rest -- I´m more into something along the lines of a pre-amp that would do the job, and would very much appreciate suggestions there.
(I once got a rough estimate of what LO´s equipment costs, and that clearly collides with my expressed desire above "within a reasonable price range", but still ...)


Barley Nectar
900 posts
Aug 27, 2015
6:13 AM
Well, If the OP has good acoustic tone then it has to be the gear, or the ear. I feel that playing straight into a PA is bright/cold. I very rarely play thru a PA because of this. A lot of the harmonica sound ends up in the horns. Horns suck for harp! Using an amp that is too big for the job will also give you a non-warm tone. I'm talking tube amp here. The power of the amp needs to match the venue/band. Tube amps need to be driven to get a warm tone. The warmth is due to distortion, preferably from the power tubes. BUT, if you have to push the amp too hard, you end up with Kazoo tone, not good either. IOW, you can't use a Super Reverb at a coffee house acoustic gig and expect warmth. This is where your Memphis Mini/Champ type amps come in. I figure a giging harp player needs at least 3 amps to cover most situations. Amps are tools. Did you ever look in a mechanics tool box, lots of tools. The variables that affect your tone are endless. Mic choice, amp circuit, speaker used, room acoustics, and how you hear all of this. Could be that you sound great out front but not good to yourself. Good luck in your quest...BN
hvyj
2759 posts
Aug 27, 2015
6:44 AM
Martin, the EP Booster is a "discreet FET preamp." Btw, the Keeley Compressor Pro although a little pricey ($299) is excellent. Btw, like you, I never play unamplified and I never play in air. I always cup the mic and i consider the mic to be an extension of my instrument.

Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 27, 2015 10:16 AM
Diggsblues
1889 posts
Aug 27, 2015
7:01 AM
I try to stay away from digital stuff. I had an Electro Harmonix echo pedal that warmed the sound up great.

Also, a warm tone has a lot to do with you, think cello.
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The Iceman
2642 posts
Aug 27, 2015
7:35 AM
"Think cello"

great advice!
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The Iceman
hvyj
2761 posts
Aug 27, 2015
8:51 AM
@BN: I agree with you that amps are tools and ideally a giging musician should have 3 if resources allow in order to have the right tool for the right job. But I don't find little 5 watt amps to be warm in any setting. For small intimate venues a Princeton Reverb (1x10, 15 watts) is as small as I will go. But tastes vary and are subjective.

@Martin: depending on how far you want to go, hemp cone speakers cut treble edge and sound warm. They do need a break in period, though. You also need to pay attention to whether speakers are ribbed or smooth/unribbed.

Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 27, 2015 9:22 AM
Greg Heumann
3089 posts
Aug 27, 2015
8:59 AM
I think the #1 source for warmer tone is good cupping. You need to be able to mute the harp entirely to know what 100% is - many people can't get there, it takes practice! Then open from there only a few percent. Of course you can open further for expression but just for pure warm tone, that degree of cupping naturally mutes the higher frequencies. Of course a good open throat is also essential.

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1847
2723 posts
Aug 27, 2015
10:19 AM

airport jam edit1234567891 from bob cooper on Vimeo.



here is an example of what i would consider a warm tone, at least for me anyway.
part of this sound is from a mic that greg built with a shure crystal element.
it has a strong midrange presence. i am using a bella ep echo, and it is in an airport hanger
so it gets a bit of natural reverb.
harmonicanick
2281 posts
Aug 27, 2015
11:40 AM
@Martin
Interested you put JJ Milteau in your warm sound example, JJ does not get a lot of press on this forum, I have no idea why, in my opinion he is my favourite player and has spawned loads of great harp players from his blues school in Paris France.

Anyway, my point is to get a sound like him you have to practice and learn how he does his technique. That will take many years, I dont know how long you have been playing? But carry on and you will achieve this:)
marine1896
351 posts
Aug 27, 2015
11:43 AM
man....I've just figured out that The Iceman is Larry Eisenberg as mentioned by Joe Filisko...now all his posts make sense haha I feel a bit of a dick just putting that together there!
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
nacoran
8641 posts
Aug 27, 2015
1:36 PM
I'd say those samples seem to be played pretty softly with a lot of attention to a gentle attack, sustained notes and very good work on vibrato as the notes tail off. The two players it makes me think of stylistically are Christelle and Diggs. (That's not to say that other players don't do it, but that it's sort of a staple of their sound).

To my ear the attack seems to be a big part of the sound. A lot of more boisterous stuff we play we tend to hit the notes very hard and crisply and end them very sharply (not in the sharp vs. flat sense, maybe abruptly is a better word). They seem to be hitting the notes with just enough force and then swelling a little before letting off. Maybe instead of a hard toe tap keep the beat by swaying your body. I know it sounds silly, but it might put you in the right place. I like the advice of playing like you are mid yawn and describing it as a cello.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
The Iceman
2644 posts
Aug 27, 2015
2:53 PM
Marine1896....now I'm intrigued. My personal email is on my profile page. Why not communicate with me there and we can continue this privately....
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The Iceman
marine1896
352 posts
Aug 27, 2015
3:25 PM
The Iceman; Don't be that intrigued nothing suspicious, I enjoy your posts, humour and you give good advice/opinions. It was a piece Joe Filisko wrote I read years ago and he mentions "Larry Eisenberg" among a few others as one of the "great players" I just never made a connection but oddly it was your mention in another thread about gourmet food that started it off! I know, I should have been a private investigator!;-)
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
1847
2724 posts
Aug 27, 2015
3:46 PM
maybe we can encourage larry to post some of his more recent playing, perhaps amplified with a band?
marine1896
353 posts
Aug 27, 2015
3:54 PM
1847; Well funny you should say that whilst conducting my exhaustive investigation into said "Iceman" I could only find one small clip on YT!;-)

Oh yeah and there is another Larry Esienberg who plays harmonica!
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"

Last Edited by marine1896 on Aug 27, 2015 3:57 PM
The Iceman
2645 posts
Aug 27, 2015
4:10 PM
Yes, the other Larry Eisenberg has long hair and I believe he is in Texas or thereabouts.

Sad to say, I have never been one to archive and document myself - even nothing as far as self promotion as a musician.

There are a few old SPAH youtube videos with Winslow's Bunch O' Guys in which I am part of the ensemble.

Other short videos exist in the SPAH concert recordings - something I did in 1998 and/or 1999 I believe.

When I get motivated, I'll take some old VHS tapes to be transferred to digital. One is my performance at the World Harmonica Competition the one year it was held in Detroit. I play a song with Sandy Weltman accompanying me on guitar. I didn't know there was a competition until showing up at SPAH which was hosting the event, so entered at the 11th hour. Almost didn't get a chance to play, but I did and took 3rd place on the fly. Michel Herblin took 1st and Sandy took 2nd.

As stated before, currently there are no situations where I live in which I join in on harmonica - talent pool is kinda low. It ain't Detroit, that's for sure.

I do have a few songs on a CD that I recorded as session player for a wonderful roots guitar/songstress done oh, maybe 20 years ago. When I find the CD, I'll put it up on sound cloud with a link here.

So, when the spare time for me appears, I'll start to post what I have.

Thanks for your interest.
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The Iceman
Pistolcat
840 posts
Aug 28, 2015
12:31 AM
Staying OT: I attended a workshop a few weeks ago held by Steve Baker. He also referred to The Iceman when he talked about a bent note's "ceiling and floor".

I would also like to hear your playing Iceman.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
The Iceman
2647 posts
Aug 28, 2015
4:21 AM
Kudos to Steve for giving credit where credit is due for one of my many teaching concepts.

"Ceiling and floor" along with "note room" was created to help explain the range of notes available through bending technique and also to help players focus on exact pitch.

In the early 1990's, I wrote a monthly column for - at that time - the only harmonica magazine around in the US (predates Winslow's HIP). It was called AHN, or American Harmonica Newsletter.

A lot of concepts have become part of the harmonica teaching in subsequent publications, how to books, and even other's seminars.

The stand up educators give credit where it is due. Others are silent and, by omission, take credit for the concepts themselves.

These old magazines live in a box in the garage. When my gourmet food life allows the time, it would be fun to republish these columns.

ps...not so much off topic, as my whole agenda in developing these teaching methods was to warm up the sound of the harmonica. I called it "discovering the beauty of a vibrating reed".

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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 28, 2015 4:24 AM
Diggsblues
1891 posts
Aug 28, 2015
4:51 AM
Since I said "Think Cell" I thought I should show what I mean. This is a live studio recording akg c414 mic.
I played off the mic no cupping only some reverb and a little echo.
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Kingley
3914 posts
Aug 28, 2015
5:08 AM
I think it's important to note that with the exception of the clip posted by 1847. All of the clips posted are studio recorded. Which means they could have been heavily affected by post production processes and by their very nature are 'sterile' recordings. It's not an easy feat to achieve that same sound clarity or tone in a live gig setting.

Martin you say that regardless of the amp, mic or PA you still can't find a warm sound that is to your satisfaction. Just a thought, but maybe you're setting your sights too high and need to be more realistic in your goals?

Have you ever had a sound that your happy with?

I suspect that throwing money at things is not going to give you the solution you seek. You say your acoustic tone is "passable". Try recording yourself at home on your mobile phone. Does your acoustic tone sound warm enough to you? If it does then look at cupping technique and amp/PA settings.

If it doesn't then either work on your tone or accept that your 'vision' of what it should sound like may not be obtainable.

We are all our own worst critics. Pistolcat thinks you sound fine and have 'warm' tone. So maybe you're being over critical of yourself.

It's hard to make any kind of judgement without any examples of your playing to use as a basis. So we are just kicking ideas around and hoping something works. Maybe you should post some examples both amplified and acoustic of your own playing. As this might alter the advice people are giving.

Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 28, 2015 5:11 AM
Martin
871 posts
Aug 28, 2015
11:41 AM
@Kingley: You´ll just get a hurried reply to your reply to my question (Im´not well, and pressed for time at the moment -- but I´ll be back).

As far as my own playing is concerned, I don´t have an acoustic clip for the moment.
A while back I posted a video of me and a friend busking: the sound here is very processed and harsh (small overdriven amp) and it´s consequently hard to judge the quality of one´s tone. Also, the playing is sloppy and strident -- my bad. (Had a terrible hangover, as a matter of fact.) Still, it could perhaps give some notion.
I´ll try to post a clip of some acoustic playing one of these days.

You also get an example of LO playing live. There are many more to be had, both recent (when he has not stepped down on all his pedals) as well as from the War years. He mostly manages to get a tone that I think can be described as "warm". I´ve also seen him live from a close standpoint, a "clinic", spoke to him, but was kinda reticent when it came to his set-up and how he got that fabulous sound. He wanted to sell harmonicas.

Maybe these "Check your tone", "Check your cupping" etc questions always have to be asked -- but I can´t say I´m a beginner. Like many here on the forum I´ve been playing a while, and I´m looking for something material. Of course we are all familiar with the gearhead who upon returning home with electronic stuff for another $ 10000 routinely repeats the mantra, "Sure, it´s not the gear that matters, it´s all in the player", but I don´t believe that -- and neither does the gearheads, or they are suffering form some serious form of distorted reality. Gear matters. Full stop.

Then there are players with years and years of experience, they have written books, they teach on Youtube and what not and they have loads of equipment -- and they still sound like shit. I´m aware of that.
There is no Royal road, as already Aristotle remarked.

Many thanks to you and all the others for the interest, as well as some concrete suggestions, and I´ll be returning to the matter later.




1847
2725 posts
Aug 28, 2015
11:50 AM
from what i remember lee oskar uses
a beyer ribbon mic and a roland jc 120 amp
also various pedals that a internet search should locate
marine1896
354 posts
Aug 28, 2015
12:55 PM
Sorry for going OT again guys but thanks for that Iceman (or can I say Larry now???)! For those interested this is a video of Iceman doing a favourite of all of us I'm sure. No surprise then to hear that he has great tone, really nice acoustic muted sound, sublime vibrato, seamless overblows, quite intense playing style (on this one anyway I thought), and check out his long notes!




Should not leave it too long to lay some stuff down Iceman or you will end up one of those "well, he never actually recorded much" converstaions!;-)
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
walterharp
1670 posts
Aug 28, 2015
12:58 PM
yeah and the milteau clip has almost zero cupping.. both the original examples were reverby though

but the contrast can be made... Levy has a non-warm tone, it does seem a tightly gapped custom has a less warm tone to me

also, it seems the two examples given were lower key harmonicas..which can help
hvyj
2763 posts
Aug 29, 2015
2:25 PM
@Martin: enjoyed your busking vid. For most of it you play with a strong, hard attack and appropriately so. On those passages where you lighten up, the tone is warmer. So, IMHO, there's nothing wrong with your playing technique. I happen to believe that hardware (independent of technique, as well as in conjunction with technique) has quite a bit to do with tone and timbre.

FWIW, I was at a musician friend of mine's house over the American Fourth of July holiday. Eventually, there was a jam on his very large front porch, and rather than go to my car to get my amp, I plugged my 545 Ultimate into the #2 input on the reverb channel of a Fender Twin Reverb Reissue (2x12, 85 watts) that was sitting there and not being used. Very warm tone with nice depth and no feedback problems. Yeah, I think the hardware has a lot to do with achieving what u are after.

Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 29, 2015 2:30 PM
Martin
873 posts
Sep 01, 2015
12:29 PM
Let me just return briefly to this topic, and slightly emphasize what I said above.

@Greg Heumann: "I think the #1 source for warmer tone is good cupping. You need to be able to mute the harp entirely to know what 100% is - many people can't get there, it takes practice!"

Let me respectfully disagree with you there. Of course not on "it takes practice" (and I can´t entirely choke my harp, no way) but that "good cupping" is the high road to warm tone.
On the JJM example here, as walterharp hints, there is not a whole lot supertight cupping. In fact rather loose cupping, as I hear it.
There are also dozens of instances where chromatic players like Toots T gets a really warm tone -- and they hardly cup at all.
And (gasp!) I´d say that there is even a case where the infamous harmonica terrorist Bob Dylan sounds warm: "Every grain of sand."
I can´t link to the Dylan tune, not on You tube, but the album is "Shot of love". Whoever engineered Bob on that session did something to his otherwise rather thin and pretty awful sound -- and I don´t beleive he was given a lesson on cupping.

@hvyj: Thank you, and yes you share my conviction - although I don´t think there´s a single Magic Bullet that does it all, but, as I said above, gear matters.


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