johan d
1 post
Jun 16, 2015
11:12 AM
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Hello,
I'm learning the piano and for the times that fails, I bought me a harmonica. I have basic theory knowledge of scales and notes from my pianolessons.
I've watched some videos on youtube and I understood that I should first try to play single notes. After a week, I begin gradually to succeed and have bought me a book with beginner tunes. "Can't help falling in love with you" Elvis begins to sound familiar.
I bought a Special 20 and Big River both in C Major. I do have the impression that draw on the 1st hole goes very hard on both harmonicas. Also the harmonica sometimes sound really out of tune on 6/7/8 - or is this unexperience when no clear sound is coming out of the harmonica?
I have both of them already once washed in lukewarm water and let dry, and then it goes a little bit better for a while.
In the shop were also Suzuki Manji and Lee Oskar. Are these better, in terms of tone strength, or is it just my inexperienced? Or is my harmonica already with a dammaged reed? How do I check this?
Thanks, Johan
Last Edited by johan d on Jun 16, 2015 11:23 AM
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STME58
1336 posts
Jun 16, 2015
11:54 AM
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Check your piano tuning. Most of the time on casually used pianos, they are tuned relative and while all the intervals are correct, may be quite flat in absolute pitch. Bringing the piano up to correct pitch is a much more involved and expensive tuning than just making a few adjustments so the piano is in tune with itself.
Having trouble getting clear notes, or any sound at all is a typical beginner problem. Not that it is impossible there is a problem with the harp. If you have the problem on more than one harp it is even more likely to be technique. If you draw 6 and 7 at the same time,that is a second and it will sound a bit dissonant.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 16, 2015 11:55 AM
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johan d
2 posts
Jun 16, 2015
11:02 PM
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Of course the piano. it's tuned on a regular basis and the pitches do correspond with the harmonica, so it's in tune.
I guess I need some more practice on the clear notes. Buying a more expensive (better quality?) Suzuki Manji or a harp with wooden comb won't help me in achieving the clear notes?
Last Edited by johan d on Jun 16, 2015 11:22 PM
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nacoran
8523 posts
Jun 17, 2015
12:08 AM
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There are different ways to tune a piano though! Well tempered minds have contemplated the intervals. That's a story for sometime other than 3am though. I'll try to explain in a little more depth tomorrow. :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Pistolcat
775 posts
Jun 17, 2015
3:22 AM
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No, you're harps are fine. It's all you. Believe me. Don't be discourage, though, everybody's been there. Though because everyone thinks that it's just blow and suck on a harmonica they can become frustrated. No one would expect to get clear notes out of a trumpet or a trombone after a short time.
...don't sell you're harmonicas short. Think of them as real brass instruments. Learn how to shape and carry each and every note out of each and every hole. And have fun while doing it.
And if you are Swedish you should join our forum ljudbojen.se. And check out harp meet and our August get together in Norrköping featuring Steve Baker!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jun 17, 2015 3:24 AM
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MindTheGap
613 posts
Jun 17, 2015
4:11 AM
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But I think it's important to say that it *might* be a problem with the harp, even if that's less likely.
When I got my first 'quality' harp, and found a hole was unplayable I also read the advice everywhere that it's the beginner not the harp. Five minutes adjusting with a toothpick and all solved.
On the other hand, I couldn't believe that controlling all the bends on the 3 draw was really that hard, and there must be a technical fix. But I was wrong about that one.
Obviously I have no idea about what is wrong here but...
"I have both of them already once washed in lukewarm water and let dry, and then it goes a little bit better for a while."
Maybe it's getting full of spit?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 17, 2015 4:13 AM
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Rubes
950 posts
Jun 17, 2015
5:51 AM
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Special 20 IS a good harp....
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STME58
1337 posts
Jun 17, 2015
8:00 AM
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What Rubes says is true, the special 20 is a good harp. The quality level of your harps is not the problem. Keep trying, you will get it.
I am not an instructor and I have never tried this to help a student before, but I have been reading/experimenting and have found that if I whistle the note I am trying to sound on the harmonica, then put the harp to my mouth with the only adjustment being the embouchure (don't use a narrow pucker like a whistle into the harp, put it deeper in your mouth), I will get a clear note. I have found this to work on bent notes as well. Try this on draw 1 on the C harp. Inhale whistle a D then draw on hole one and see if the harp sounds a clear D. Little things like where the back of your tongue is make a big difference in the sound of a harp. Once you can get a clear D from draw one, try the same thing but whistle Db and see if you get the half step bend.
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Pistolcat
777 posts
Jun 17, 2015
9:55 AM
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Good advice from stme58. MTG - I had the opposite problem. I almost destroyed my seven draw reed on a G harp gapping before I understood that the problem was me :D. The problem is more noticeable at draw seven to ten because sloppy intonation/unintentional bending more often will choke the reed. On the lower holes you bend a little instead, making the note sound somewhat strong but out of tune.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jun 17, 2015 9:55 AM
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MindTheGap
614 posts
Jun 17, 2015
11:07 AM
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Pistolcat - it just hits a raw nerve, beginners always being told that it's always them and the never the instrument. Even if it's 95% of the time, that's not always. I'm glad I took the advice with a pinch of salt.
It's good to begin learning on a well-adjusted instrument. EDIT - just to expand on that thought: having learnt on a well-adjusted instrument I find I can play on a poorer one. But I don't think it would work the other way round.
That said I'll throw out the most useful advice I got when learning to play the higher notes, which was to use 'warm air'. That unlocked it for me.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 17, 2015 11:10 AM
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nacoran
8525 posts
Jun 17, 2015
11:25 AM
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A little off the original topic, but piano tuning is not always the same as tuning with other instruments. It involves all sorts of math. Here is the article that explained temperament to me. Sadly, since it's an old article the links to the sound samples don't work anymore, which is a shame. Don't think of it as essential harmonica learning, but I found it interesting and you may hear the terms thrown around.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html
As to your question about instruments... the Special 20 is considered a pro level instrument, the Big River is still a decent harp if maybe not quite pro. Personally, I play a mix of Lee Oskars and Special 20s (well, lots of other things mixed in, but those are my workhorses.) I've heard good things about the Manji's too. From my experience you get a decent harp once you get to about the $30-$40 mark. Wooden, plastic, metal combs... a custom comb may give you some advantage, but the material doesn't make much difference. Don't worry about custom combs at this stage though unless you've got some money burning a hole in your pocket. They are fun and may be useful farther down the line, but lots of pros play on stock harps. (They are great though, once you have a few keys of harps in your set if for nothing else that being able to keep your harps identifiable at a glance, and later on they do give some performance boosts to some subtler things and I'm all for them once you've got some basics down.)
It's always hard to diagnose problems without hearing them. I know a lot of beginners are reluctant to post sound clips though.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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johan d
3 posts
Jun 17, 2015
11:10 PM
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I'll give it some more time before buying a new harp.
I read "don't use a narrow pucker like a whistle into the harp, put it deeper in your mouth". I experience, the deeper the harmonica goes into my mouth, (does it have to be against you lip "corners"?) the harder it gets to narrow the hole and only blow 1 note. The trick I do, is to lift the back and lower the front of the harmonica, so the holes are resting on my bottom lip - is that a correct way (rotating the harmonica)? Any way, that makes it easier for me to get 1 clear note, but of course I don't want to routine/practice bad habits...
About the piano: It's tuned by a professional piano tuner, and I guess the same way as many other piano's out there. If I play an octave on the piano and repeat every note on my harmonica, it sounds pretty equal.
Great help by the way, many thanks, Johan
Last Edited by johan d on Jun 17, 2015 11:12 PM
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STME58
1339 posts
Jun 17, 2015
11:47 PM
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Tipping that harp as you describe is done by many players. Embouchure is somewhat personal but puckering up like you are kissing the harp to get a single note is a sure way to get a very thin tone. Playing long tones and changing things around (harp position, lounge position, throat opening etc.)to see haw the tone changes will help you to get to a sound you like. Don't forget to record yourself, what you hear is not what your audience hears. Early recording are good to have for comparison. When you first start playing you will improve quickly. You will get to a point where you sound pretty good and then your ear will start to improve and you will think you are getting worse. Having an early recording of yourself can be very encouraging because it will prove you are actually getting better, even if you ear can now pick up errors it could not before.
If your goal is to improve your playing quickly and avoid bad habits, spending the price of a couple of harps on some lessons by a competent instructor would be a far better use of funds at this point than buying better harps.
Most piano tuners today would probably use equal temperament unless instructed to do otherwise. Temperament is a fascinating but complex subject. Harmonica players are probably more aware of it than other musicians because diatonic instruments lend themselves to using other temperaments. If you tune a piano to just temperament some keys will be more in tune then others. Most people don't want to put up with this so ET makes all of the keys (as in key signature not the mechanical thing you press down) equally out of tune. The link Nate posted has an article that describes this a bit. It is a review of an excellent book that I bought after reading the review. Now I can bore people at length with Pythagorean commas, Bach's code for well temperament on the cover of his "Well Tempered clavier", perfect fifths vs ET fifths and other things.
Harmonicas like a Hohner Golden Melody or a Suzuki ProMaster are tuned to equal temperament and might work slightly better with a piano tuned that way.
Harp Tunings
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 17, 2015 11:49 PM
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MindTheGap
616 posts
Jun 18, 2015
1:15 AM
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johan - harp players are very much occupied with different embouchures and also with the angle of the harmonica in the mouth. There is much spirited debate about it.
I'd strongly recommend getting Winslow Yerxa's book 'Blues Harmonica for Dummies' where he describes note only the mechanics of playing a single note but also the feel of it. Following written how-to instructions can be frustrating but because he describes the feel in some detail, it's much better.
No one here will agree with me, but if I was unsure if it was 'me or the harp' I'd simply buy another harp and that would tell me what's what. If you do stick with the harmonica, you'll buy loads of them anyway so why wait?
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johan d
4 posts
Jun 18, 2015
1:52 AM
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i have acces to this one in our local library
Learn Play Harmonica
I'll give this a try.
Last Edited by johan d on Jun 18, 2015 2:05 AM
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STME58
1340 posts
Jun 18, 2015
8:42 AM
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"No one here will agree with me, but if I was unsure if it was 'me or the harp' I'd simply buy another harp and that would tell me what's what."
I will agree with you, I'm sure you know much better what you would do than I possibly can! :-)
All kidding aside, your point about money spent on an additional harp not being wasted is a good one. If you are going to play much at all you will need a minimum of 6 different keys. I prefer to have all 12. I have about 30 working harps I use regularly and quite a stack of harps needing repair.
I still think that if a beginner has a choice to spend $50 on an aditional harp, or a lesson. The lesson will do more good if the instructor is competent. The instructor will also be able to tell you if your harp is working correctly or not.
Does anybody have first hand experience with the book johan_d has access to! I started out with one of Barrett's books.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 18, 2015 8:43 AM
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