|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Anyone use 7l Just intonation
Anyone use 7l Just intonation
Page:
1
Little roger
28 posts
Oct 22, 2014
5:29 AM
|
Hi all,
I had the pleasure of an email conversation with Tom of Blue Moon this week as I am ordering some harps off him. After the usual things were clarified, he asked which tuning setup I would like - ET, 7lJI, 19lJI etc. TBH, I have NEVER had to answer that question! I have been playing what most would consider traditional blues for nigh 25 years but have always been a bloke that buys a Marine Band and off you go. If the note drops too much, I tune it back to sound "right." No worries and it has always sounded good to me. I have recorded several CDs without spending a second considering which tuning (intonation) I have.
So back to Tom. A very friendly and helpful guy who helped me understand the differences (big nod to Pat Missin at this point). But I had to answer his question. As I have pretty much always been a MB guy, the Compromise Tuning was the obvious choice.
But ....
I decided to tune an A harp to 7lJI to see what it is like. Fascinating. The 7th sounded flat to me straight away. However, I played along with LW, BW and co and, lo and behold, it sounds right! Unbelievable. I never noticed that I must have been a fair bit sharper in hole 5 for the past quarter of a century without noticing!! It still sounds wrong when I play third position (Pat explains why) but I could imagine using this setup occasionally for the classic 50s style stuff primarily in 1st or 2nd position (yes I use positions ;))
I think it might require a bit of re-thinking but is anyone using this setup exclusively or at least regularly? If so, any constraints?
Ta
Roger
Btw - I asked Tom to use the Compromise Tuning. Right decision?
|
groyster1
2696 posts
Oct 22, 2014
9:46 AM
|
I have 25 star of david mb1896s...they are all tuned 7JI or pretty close......they sound great
|
barbequebob
2735 posts
Oct 22, 2014
10:39 AM
|
I still tune my diatonic harps to 7LJI, and that's the way most diatonics were tuned to OOTB until 1985. I much prefer this tuning for blues and a lot of older country music stuff as well as folk/folk rock. Chords tend to such richer, fatter ad fuller in that tuning and most people who almost never play chords or double stops tend to prefer ET or a compromise tuning. 7LJI is the OOTB tuning that I started out with in the 70's.
Until the introduction of the Golden Melody in 1974, just about every diatonic harmonica was tuned to 7LJI (with the exception of solo tuned harmonicas, basically diatonics tuned the same ways as 95% of chromatics are tuned but without the slide, which were ALWAYS tuned to ET tuning) and so the GM became the first diatonic tuned to ET tuning.
In 1983, Huang was the first company to begin using 19LJI tuning for all of its diatonics and then Hohner began using it in 1985.
In 1992, with the introduction of the MS series, Hohner began using compromise tunings for all of their diatonics (except for the Golden Melodies), one for the MS series and one for the Sp20/MB models.
In 2007, Seydel went away from 7LJI to a compromise tuning that's essentially the same as 19LJI except that the 5 & 9 draw are tuned 3 cents flatter than on 19LJI.
When the Hohner Crossover were introduced, Hohner used an entirely different compromise tuning that's quite similar to what's being used on the Suzuki Manji/Olive models.
At the present time, the only diatonics OOTB that still use 7LJI are the Hering 1923 Vintage Harps and the JI version of the Suzuki Fabulous.
All of the recordings of both Walter and Sonny Boys, George Harmonica Smith, pre-mid 80's James Cotton/Junior Wells/Paul Butterfield/Snooky Pryor/Rhythm Willie/Sonny Terry (tho really more prior to 1974 for him) and most every diatonic harmonica master of nearly EVERY genre were all using harps that right OOTB were tune the 7LJI.
Just recently with the introduction of the Hohner Blue Midnight model, this model is tuned to 19LJI.
If you want to do stuff past 3rd position, you may want to use either a compromise tuning or 19LJI, but there are several different compromise tunings.
Here's a list of tunings:
Diatonic Harmonica Tunings
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Mahcks
14 posts
Oct 22, 2014
12:58 PM
|
I understand that JI is based on harmonic ratios, but doesn't 7 limit have a lot of ratios? How do you go about choosing which intervals to use?
|
Little roger
29 posts
Oct 22, 2014
10:15 PM
|
Thanks guys.
Bob, I appreciate your detailed answer. I had actually discovered your table while researching the topic. Good job. Thanks. I think I grasp the concept now and the history of the development of the various intonationa seems logical.
However, I am curious Bob, from a player's perspective, does the flat 7th seem off to you, particularly in 3 rd position or do you think it is just a case of getting used to it? I find it intriguing that I have been listening to it for many years but, as I started after the shift in intonation by Hohner, I have been playing a different intonation.
@Mahcks. I don't claim to truly understand this, but have a look here. It's clear and relatively concise.
http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun1.html
Thanks
Roger
|
mlefree
208 posts
Oct 23, 2014
8:12 AM
|
I was just waitin' for Barbecue Bob to jump on this. :)
Nice going', Bob!
Michelle
----------
SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
|
arzajac
1502 posts
Oct 23, 2014
8:34 AM
|
Mahcks: The seven refers to the largest ratio. For example, in 7Limit Just Intonation, the blow plate is actually 5-limit since there are only the tonic, third and fifth.
----------
Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
|
barbequebob
2736 posts
Oct 23, 2014
10:43 AM
|
@Little roger -- Since you started out after the shift from Hohner and have been far more used to playing ET or compromise tuning harps, it does take some getting used to as well as taking time to fully understand how everything fits with 7LJI, and it's much the same way for me or many other harp players I know of, especially blues playing pros, who, like myself, started out with harps that right OOTB were ALL tuned to 7LJI, it took a long time to get used to ET/compromise tunings as well as the change from 7LJI to 19LJI as well.
One of the very first things I absolutely hated about ET/compromise tunings was that the chords have a tendency to beat/waver like bloody hell and often tend to sound thinner, tinnier, and much harsher, plus the beautifully percussive sound of JI chords was completely lost once the changes began happening. Chording/double stops aren't just used in blues (old school stuff), but also old timey stuff, country, folk, and that's for starters.
If 7LJI on 5 & 9 draw feels really out to you, a HUGE part of the problem is that the average player tends to play, in terms of breath force, FAR too hard, and those two notes being tuned 27-31 cents flat, when played really hard can come closer to 50 cents flat, which is entire 1/4 step flat and REALLY out of tune, and so therefore, the idea of tuning ANY harp OOTB or even custom for that matter, to REAL A440 or even A441 is a totally wrong headed idea because the average player tends to play FAR harder in terms of breath force than they realize and so obviously, the harder the force, the flatter the pitch gets and if you choose to tune to 7LJI, NEVER have the harp tuned any lower than A442, and for a ridiculously hard player, A444 may be better so that you do wind up hitting 5 & 9 draw so hard that you're closer to 50 cents flat, which is WAY out of tune.
Pat Missin is an excellent source and one of the most knowledge people on the planet about all things harmonica.
BTW, just intonation, and there are TONS of different ones that have been used over the centuries, have been around considerably longer than ET or compromise tunings have been by a wide margin. Even back when ET was first used somewhere in the 1700's, they knew for a FACT that with that tuning, chords were ALWAYS going to sound really rough but on a piano, it would really be particularly bad, but to make it work so that you hear little or no beating when playing chords, if you look inside the piano and notice where the hammer strikes the string, the hammer acts in such a way so that the harsh beating that comes from ET tuning is minimized because the hammer becomes a damper killing off many of the odd numbered harmonic overtones and it has to be hitting in that particular EXACT spot or ET tuning would've been a complete disaster for a piano or any other keyboard instrument.
Unfortunately, for harmonicas and any other free reed instrument, you don't have that at all and so you tend to hear EVERY overtone happening and nothing dampens those. However, on chromatics and partialy valved diatonics, the windsaver valves also act as a damper that supresses many of those odd numbered upper harmonic overtones so that when you play chords and double stops, the chords become far less harsh, but in return, it DOES alter the tone of the instrument.
JI can be much more forgiving for a player with bad playing technique because all the harmonic overtones are in true balance, wheras ET, this never happens and so if you're guilty of bad playing technique, and the number one bad playing technique being the fact that a player is using FAR too much breath force in their playing, ET/compromise tunings (with the excepton of the one used by Seydel) is TOTALLY unforgiving and so bad playing technique tends to become considerably more difficult to hide.
7LJI is great for the 1st 3 positions, but if you want JI, but want to play past 3rd position, then 19LJI may be a better choice for you. If you get a custom harp, unless you specify right up front, whenever there gonna tune a harp to JI, they're usually going to do 19LJI.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
hvyj
2554 posts
Oct 26, 2014
8:15 AM
|
I've always considered working with a horn player or horn section to be the acid test of good intonation for a harp player. So, I have a question for BBQ Bob: How do you play in tune with a horn or horns using a 7L JI harp that has so many notes tuned sharp or flat?
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 26, 2014 8:16 AM
|
isaacullah
2863 posts
Oct 26, 2014
9:27 AM
|
This is an interesting question, and it brings up another: is 7 limit JI still a relevant tuning IF the goal is a "modern" sound?
I'm not sure I have a real answer to that, but I have found that I cannot play JI tuned harps with some musical styles - partucularly ones that need lots of single note melody playing - because the harp just sounds flat. This especially true for playing in 12th or even 3rd position, above hole 4. When I tune a harp (which is rare these days because I got no time!), I tune the bottom octave by ear so that there's no beating in the chords or octave splits, but I above hole four, I tune it as close to equal as possible. I find that I can then use the harp for a variety of styles: great sounding chord vamps and blues down low, but sweet, true melody notes up top. By switching positions, its almost like switching tunings!
----------
YouTube! Soundcloud!
|
Little roger
30 posts
Oct 26, 2014
9:55 AM
|
I have been busy exploring this in the last few days. I tuned one harp to the 7LJI and now I LOVE it for traditional blues in 1st and 2nd. Not sure about 3rd yet although you can clearly hear the intonation on the flattened 7th in classic blues recordings. I had never questioned it before but it certainly sounds right in that context. I do several Wells/Walter/Smith numbers in 3rd so will try them out in the next few weeks at gigs to see how it feels and sounds. Not that anyone else will notice anyway ..../
I have asked Tom of Blue Moon now to use this intonation for the prewars he is doing for me - if you have prewars I guess they should be with the original intonation.
I have also tuned a G, A and a Bb harp to 19LJI. This seems like a good way of avoiding any potential flat sounding 5 hole in third position. Generally I only use those for 3rd position (with exceptions of course). I don't know where I'll end up but it's interesting stuff.
|
hvyj
2555 posts
Oct 26, 2014
10:17 AM
|
The flatter than half step flat 7th is a "harmonic 7th" which does sound right in the context of the traditional blues idiom, The problem arises if you are playing other styles of music or if you are playing multiple positions regardless of the style of music being played. If you are playing with other musicians it's important to be in tune with the rest of the band.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 26, 2014 10:21 AM
|
groyster1
2700 posts
Oct 26, 2014
3:19 PM
|
when I play ballads I use golden melody or lee oskar....but for blues 7JI or 19 JI has that rich chord sound.......old marine bands or tweaked marine bands....best for blues
Last Edited by groyster1 on Oct 27, 2014 5:32 AM
|
Meaux Jeaux
2 posts
Oct 26, 2014
8:08 PM
|
Love 7LJI, am glad that Hohner offers it in their Artist Setups. For $20 it saves me a lot of time.
Pete
|
barbequebob
2739 posts
Oct 27, 2014
11:43 AM
|
@hvyj -- The one thing horns can do that a guitarist or pianist really can't do is adjust to where the tuning is of a harmonica because horns have flexibility that a piano or almost any keyboard instrument for that matter does not.
If I'm doing a more traditional blues gig, folk.folk-rock, old timey, and tons of country 7LJI works fine, but if I were doing other genres where I'd be doing little or no chords/double stops, I'd consider ET tuning or a compromise tuning for that and my first choice would be a compromise because there's a bit more flexibility than with true ET tuning.
I've tons of stuff on stage with Sax Gordon and often working together as a horn section and we've had no problems at all. I NEVER tune harps to true A440 and avoid playing as hard as the average player tends to do, so I have FAR more control over what's happening than the average player tends to do.
@Little roger -- It is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that you get control of your breath force because you can flatten the pitch far too much if you have a tendency to play too hard all the time and you're using a 7LJI tuned harp, and if you play hard, I strongly recommend you tune your harps to A443-A444 if you're gonna play really hard all the time.
@Meaux Jeaux -- In Hohner's description of the Artist setup, they mention that they tune 7LJI to a standard pitch of A441, which I do NOT recommend at all, so I'd let them know that you don't want standard pitch any lower than A442 (so that in REAL playing breath, you're close to A440 wheras if you're tuned to A441, you're always gonna be flatter than A440 in real playing breath no matter what).
All prewar diatonics came OOTB with 7LJI.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
groyster1
2701 posts
Oct 27, 2014
12:09 PM
|
with the artist setup....the biscuit=7JI...the juke joint=19JI....I bought both of these and difference is very subtle
|
Little roger
32 posts
Oct 27, 2014
12:09 PM
|
@Meaux Jeaux
I hadn't actually heard of the artist's setup. I'm not sure it's available in Europe - I'll look into it. Thanks for the tip.
Bob: having played for so long, both harp and some sax, I don't generally have the problem of playing too hard and flattening the notes. Adrenaline can do that to all of us however. I tuned a harp to 443 and it is way too sharp how I play. 442 seems not bad. Of course I played 440 for many years so that might have helped. I think the flattened 7th just takes some getting used to. I am certainly enjoying it so far.
Btw - Sax Gordon was on my last CD :-)
Edit: Just realized that's not strictly true. He wrote and played the lines but for some reason we re-recorded them with my friend Thomas Feldmann (who is the harp player on YouTube known as harpsucker) on both tenor and baritone.
Best
R
Last Edited by Little roger on Oct 27, 2014 12:31 PM
|
JInx
928 posts
Oct 28, 2014
6:17 AM
|
Why does Hohner call the 7LJl tuning "the biscuit."? Is it because country blues guitar players used it for their open tuned resonators?
----------
|
groyster1
2704 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:28 AM
|
and I wonder why they call 19JI juke joint....I can easily say the very best OOTB harps I have got from hohner has been these artist setup mb1896
|
chromaticblues
1613 posts
Oct 28, 2014
9:21 AM
|
I personally like tuning to 442.
Also there are ways of tuning a harp so that it sounds very Bluesy with smooth chords that is not 7LJI.
@Little roger
If you can tune your own harps try tuning the draw 5 and 9 down to -14 cents. I think you'll like it!
|
bluemoose
1021 posts
Oct 28, 2014
11:07 AM
|
From the Hohner Artists setup webpage:
The Juke Joint
With a tip of your hat to the old traditions, you raise the roof with your rowdy, electrified blues.
Plugged in, high energy blues, similar to setups for Kim Wilson and Little Walter.
Classic Marine Band tuning.
Reed gaps optimized for easy note bending and playing through an amplifier.
A=441.
Half valving (optional) available for $20.
The Biscuit
You paid your dues and now you are a master of the old ways.
Traditional acoustic blues, in the style of Sonny Terry and Sonny Boy Williamson.
Classic pre-war tuning - 7 limit just intonation.
Designed primarily for 2nd position (cross harp) playing.
Enhanced for blending and balance in acoustic and small group settings.
A=440.
Half valving (optional) available for $20.
They have sound samples as well.
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
|
mlefree
215 posts
Oct 28, 2014
1:06 PM
|
Before I really understood the ins and outs of temperament I relied completely on BBQ Bob's enthusiasm for Hering 1927s and bought a full set. Don't get me wrong, I loved 'em and still do, for blues and old-timey.
But one time I took them to a bluegrass circle. What an education by fire that was! I was stunned at how out of tune I was!
Since then I have laid in a couple other sets of harps to add to my original set of SP20s. Now I am a happy camper whatever the musical surroundings.
Michelle
----------
SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
|
barbequebob
2741 posts
Oct 28, 2014
1:26 PM
|
It boils down to one thing, and that's on size does NOT fit all. Before Huang came out with the first diatonics tuned OOTB to 19LJI tuning, in an interview in the 70's in the now defunct Boston Phoenix, he used to use MB's for chording and GM's for for leads and/or strictly melody playing but when he switched to Huangs, 19LJI for him became kind of a best of both worlds for him.
If I was gonna do a rock session or go on the road with a rock band, as an example, I'd need to know how they'd want me to utilize the instrument and then go with the temperament/tuning accordingly. If it's just single note lines and zero chords and double stops (AKA playing totally dead up linear), then I'd use either ET or a compromise tuning possibly closer to ET (like the ones used by the Manji or Crossover does). If more chords and double stops, then maybe 7LJI/19LJI, but if a bit of both, compromise makes more sense.
For bluegrass, the last thing you're gonna be doing is chording and you're far more likely to use chording/double stops in country music than with bluegrass.
Again, one size does NOT fit all, because fitting properly within the context of the grooves and feels of a particular genre is extremely important and too often overlooked, and even standard pitch can be quite important too at times.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
florida-trader
561 posts
Nov 25, 2014
6:36 PM
|
I have finished the pre-wars that Roger ordered and I thought I would share a couple of pictures and some thoughts. Each harp was completely restored (although three of them were/are in great condition and didn’t need much “restoration”) using the stock pear wood combs and tuned to 7-Limit Just Intonation. All the nails were replaced with screws and the combs were flat sanded, sealed and beautified. To be honest, I wondered about Roger’s decision to have them tuned to 7-Limit because Modern Compromise has become so popular and is the most requested tuning. However, as these harps came together and I worked on tuning them I was struck by how sweet the chords are. Just beautiful. These harps are a pleasure to play and I truly hope that Roger enjoys them. Furthermore, I applaud his decision to go with 7-Limit. It just seem fitting for 75-80 year old harps.
----------
Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
|
Little roger
38 posts
Nov 26, 2014
5:10 AM
|
Thanks Tom! I am very excited about these. It does seem right to have that intonation for harps that are so old. And, yes,
I am intending to play them. I remember a recent discussion about whether to leave the nails or replace them with screws - as I want to use them and not just admire them, I think the screws and comb sealing is the way to go.
Thanks to Bob too for his never-ending advice re intonations. I have tuned almost all my harps to ji7l, leaving a few in compromise for less bluesy numbers. Ta
R
Ps Tom is a gentlemen to correspond with. I'll let you know what the harps are like when they arrive.
|
groyster1
2714 posts
Nov 26, 2014
8:36 AM
|
look forward to see what you think of them....I now have 28 star of david harps....they are all blues tuned....some of which I got from tom....I play chords a lot....and chords sound great with all of them
|
barbequebob
2770 posts
Nov 26, 2014
9:01 AM
|
I wish Hohner went back to the cover plates like those pre-WWII's because there is actually more metal on them and they're opened up so much wider than they are now and there wouldn't be the need for crimping the covers to imitate this and the harps would also have greater projection and the there's more balance in the overall sound because you hear more bottom end than you do at present (at least to my ears, anyway). The engraving on those covers is often so deep that you almost always know blind folded if the harp is upside down or not.
The 7LJI tuning that they started out with actually has exactly nothing to do with blues at all, believe it or not.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Post a Message
|
