Header Graphic
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Black Orpheus
Black Orpheus
Login  |  Register
Page: 1

David Herzhaft
33 posts
Oct 15, 2014
11:06 PM
Black Orpheus on the harmonica by David Herzhaft and Yussi.
Sorry about the quality guys this is our first rehearsal at MI, just put a Cam and rolled it.


----------
David Herzhaft
slaphappy
40 posts
Oct 16, 2014
7:49 AM
Bravo! Wonderful playing. What harp and position is that?

Cool 8 string guitar!!

----------
4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
Bilzharp
35 posts
Oct 16, 2014
8:24 AM
Yeah! I'd pay cover to hear you guys. I'm thinking a C harp in 5th position - did I get it right?
David Herzhaft
34 posts
Oct 16, 2014
8:32 AM
Thank you Blizharp, we just started a duo and decided to tape our first rehearsal to see what's going on ;)

I use a C harmonica and yes it is a 8 string guitar, Yussi has over 40 guitars, he also has a 7 string but the 8 can get really low !

If you like it please share :)

Thank you for your support ;)


David Herzhaft

Last Edited by David Herzhaft on Oct 16, 2014 8:36 AM
Bilzharp
36 posts
Oct 16, 2014
8:57 AM
I meant to say 4th position. I still get those two mixed up. I think you're playing in Am. Are you guys working up a jazz repertoire to play out? You both sound great - keep us posted.
David Herzhaft
35 posts
Oct 16, 2014
2:33 PM
Sorry I don't use positions I usually think more like a musician (chords, scales ...)
Yep building a repertoire, will keep you posted if anything new !

----------
David Herzhaft
The Iceman
2210 posts
Oct 16, 2014
6:35 PM
Bilzharp...

yes, that is 4th position.
----------
The Iceman
Michael Rubin
985 posts
Oct 16, 2014
7:56 PM
David states Sorry I don't use positions I usually think more like a musician (chords, scales ...)

I take issue with this statement.

To be fair, David and I have had this argument before. I know his side, therefore, I present this as a group debate. David is excused from presenting his side.

First off, this implies if you think about positions or "use" positions you are not a musician. I think that is not accurate. It also implies that you either think about positions or chords and scales and that they are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Most importantly, it implies that because David does not think about positions, he does not use positions. This is untrue. I aim to show that it is impossible to not use positions except when playing music with no tonal center.

Playing in positions means the tonal center of a song can be compared to the name of the harmonica by measuring the amount of times the tonal center has moved clockwise around the Circle of Fifths from the harmonica's name, plus one.

For example, if a song is in the key of C, the tonal center is C. If you play a harmonica named C, the tonal center has moved zero times clockwise from the harmonica's name in the Circle of Fifths. Zero plus one is one. Therefore, you are playing in first position.

If the song is in the key of G, the tonal center is G. If on a harmonica named C, the tonal center has moved one time clockwise from the harmonica's name in the Circle of Fifths. One plus one is two, therefore you are playing in second position.

One benefit from positions is that if you play a melody on a C harp in the key of G, you can move your mouth and breath in the same pattern on a G harp and the song will be transposed into the key of D. Both the key of G on a C harp and the key of D on a G harp are second position.

However, this benefit is not what makes positions positions. For example, a harp player can own only one C harp, play in the key of C and be in first position and play in the key of G and be in second position.

There is a concept that first position is for major, second is for blues and 3rd is for minor. Untrue. Once a player can achieve a fully chromatic scale on a harp, he can play 1st position blues or minor, second position major or minor and third position major and blues.

There is a concept that positions are based on modes. Untrue. The G blues scale is not the Mixolydian mode, but a blues song played on a C harp in the key of G using only blues scale notes is still in second position.

Jazz is more complex. Take the song Black Orpheus for example. On page 49 of the Real Book, it shows Black Orpheus as having the key signature of either C major or A minor (they are related). The song starts on an A minor chord and finishes on an A minor chord. It's a solid bet it is in A minor. Note wise, David uses the melody as written in the book and therefore he is also in A minor. He is using a C harp. A is three moves clockwise from C on the Circle of Fifths. Three plus one is four. Therefore David is playing in fourth position. He may not think about positions, but that does not mean he is not using positions. Positions are unavoidable except when playing music with no tonal center.

Jazz can be thought of in more than one way. Although the overall song would be considered in A minor, jazz players tend to think of the song in sections, with each section having a new tonal center. Consider the sixth and seventh bar of the song. The chords are Dm7, G7, Cmaj7. this is a classic two five one section of the progression. For those two bars, the song can be thought of as having the tonal center of C. Playing in the key of C on a C harp is first position. For those two bars David could be considered playing in first position. Some jazz songs switch tonal centers a lot, this one not so much.

Other jazz players would go so far as to say every time the rhythm section changes chords, the tonal center changes. So during the Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 in bars 6 and 7, the band can be thought of as playing with the tonal centers D, G and C. Therefore, David is switching from third to second to first position, all in a span of two bars.

Is this an easy or helpful way to think? Probably not, especially if you only play a C harp. It is probably much more useful to think about chords and scales and where they lie on the harp.

Useful or not, positions do not go away because you do not think about them. Positions remain, whether you talk about them or not. Except in music with no tonal center.
STME58
1141 posts
Oct 17, 2014
12:33 AM
I like David's performance whether he is thinking of positions or not. Whether thinking in position is less musical or not is perhaps a matter of opinion but I ten to agree with what Micheal wrote. That said, if I am reading from a sheet of music I think much less about position than if I am playing cross harp at a blues jam. Is reading from a sheet more musical?

Please excuse me for rambling for a bit but I have been thinking about this a bit lately and would like to share it on the off chance someone else finds it interesting.

Position playing predates the harmonica. Early hons had no valves and one changed keys by changing crooks, essentially putting in a different length tuning slide to convert the fundemental pitch of the horn. Music was written in a way that the fundamental note of the horn with a particular crook was written as C, if the tune was intended to be played in G it would say so on the page so the horn player cold install his G crook. That way, no matter what crook you were using the note on the page told you what partial to play and the music would come out according to the crook installed.

A vestige of this still survives. Trumpet music is typically written in Bb, the C on the page for the trumpet play is played open and comes out as a Bb.Woodwinds are also transposing instruments . Are horn players less musical than string players (don't answer that string players :-)).

The trombone was the first chromatic horn and it is stilled scored in C even though the fundamental of the tenor trombone is Bb. I have played trombone since 4th grade but only took up harp about 6 years ago. I recently aquired an alto trombone with a fundamental of Eb and it is interesting that I can now take a familiar tune in Bb and play in in Eb with the same slide pattern just by switching horns, position playing. The method book I got for the alto warns against doing this as the alto trombone parts are also scored in C and it is important to know what note you are playing.

On of my favorite comments that obliquely relates to this topic was from someone who had heard me play harp when she discovered I played trombone, "I knew you played the harmonica, but I didn't know you were a musician!" I realize many would not consider a trombone player to be a musician either, something the trombone shares with the harp.

Perhaps someone who has either written a score or played from a score with a harp part in it can answer this form me. Is the harp written as a transposing instrument? In other words, if a part is written for an Ab harp would you score it in Ab such that when you want a concert Ab you write C?

Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 17, 2014 12:45 AM
dmitrysbor
132 posts
Oct 17, 2014
1:51 AM
Not so bad for diatonic instrument.
However, on chromatic one this song sounds much more tender, lyric, precise and leave huge space for impro.

This one is just example amateur play on sax:

----------
http://www.youtube.com/user/dmitrysbor

Last Edited by dmitrysbor on Oct 17, 2014 1:54 AM
The Iceman
2211 posts
Oct 17, 2014
5:27 AM
It's OK to say you don't think position when playing. (I am the same way - I go for the notes).

However, when David won't answer the "what position" question, either he should learn a little more about harmonica as it relates to the real harmonica world or he is just being a bit stand offish methinks.
----------
The Iceman
Diggsblues
1591 posts
Oct 17, 2014
6:55 AM
Nice solo. I would pay more attention to holding the melody notes longer. Also, the solo is played mostly on a
vamp and not the form. You might want to do the whole form I think you might get more attention from the Jazz world. This is how a pro plays the tune.

----------

Last Edited by
Diggsblues on Oct 17, 2014 6:56 AM


Post a Message



(8192 Characters Left)


Modern Blues Harmonica supports

§The Jazz Foundation of America

and

§The Innocence Project

 

 

 

ADAM GUSSOW is an official endorser for HOHNER HARMONICAS